Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[BigSqwert]

Except when its inside a woman.

:lolhitting :lolhitting :lolhitting :lolhitting

 

I look forward to your comedy central special.

[Jenksismyhero]

INCOMING!!!!

 

 

 

lol, huge fan of the emoticon.

[NorthSideSox72]

They can revert it back to spouses and minor children only. Pretty much any immediate family member can be sponsored now.

Sponsorship? What, for citizenship? If you are here illegally, you shouldn't be able to do any such thing. If you are here legally, fine, sponsor them, within the bounds of the law.

 

[Controlled Chaos]

Sponsorship? What, for citizenship? If you are here illegally, you shouldn't be able to do any such thing. If you are here legally, fine, sponsor them, within the bounds of the law.

But if the plan is to grant citzenship to all these people..hence making them here legally. They then can legally bring over...their parents, their spouse and their children right away. They can apply to bring over... Unmarried adult sons and daughters, Married sons and daughters, Brothers and Sisters.... although there are backlogs and quotas to how many can come over each year.

 

If "whatever number of illegal aliens you believe are here right now" are granted citzenship and then go and bring over their immediate family...which can be rather large in the hispanic community. How can this country support it? Where is the line drawn? What do we do with aging parents of adult immigrants? They will put a major burden on this country's social services. Services, most of us have paid into for our entire lives and they will have paid zero into.

[Texsox]

And that doesn't change based on who is working the job. So if you add 15,000,000 people with social security numbers to those jobs then the benefits start getting used. Hire illegals who are too afraid to ask for benefits and you circumvent the negative tax bracket. Hence why the government has been looking the other way. We put those jobs on the books,no matter who works them, and we have a problem.

That's just it. In the income brackets we are talking about, people actually pay a negative tax rate. The bottom two quintiles are both like this. The bottom bracket is also the one where people primarily use the most social services, which are already overburdened and cost-overran. Immigration is going to force people to pay for a near freeride for another however many people are out there. Pick the number you believe.

[Texsox]

Easily solved. Allow legal status to be in ths country, but with limited benefits. I'm trying to offer a compromise that the GOP has a chance in hell of supporting.

Ok Tex, here's my simple counterpoint to the no citizenship argument. Let's say, for example, that I'm an employer, let's call me WalPetroleumMassey, and I want to make as much money as possible doing whatever it is I do, running harvesting equipment or construction or whatever. So, I decide I want to pay a lot of migrant workers below minimum wage and I want to eliminate safety precautions to save money.

 

Now, if you're an American worker, you have several options. You can quit, and try to find another job. Or, you can report them to the government for violating a ton of rules, and likely be considered a whistleblower. You could organize a union. With American workers, of course, sometimes this won't happen, but usually that's because you've got a very well paid worker who doesn't want to risk losing his or her job by being a malcontent.

 

On the other hand...if you're here on a guest worker program and you have zero path to citizenship, if you lose your position, you're suddenly an illegal immigrant. You're deported. So, basically, as long as the conditions you're working here are better than the conditions you'd face in Mexico, you have a huge incentive to shut up and work in whatever conditions you're told to work in, because you have no negotiating power until you become a citizen. Oh yeah, you can imagine that the feds might inspect the place and issue a few fines once every decade or so, but really, come on, there aren't even enough Federal inspectors any more to find the current illegal immigrants, or to enforce mining/drilling regulations, whatever.

 

A guest worker program without a path to citizenship is an indentured servitude plan. The people come here with no possibility of ever moving up beyond the position they start off in, and it's designed for corporate abuse.

[southsider2k5]

Easily solved. Allow legal status to be in ths country, but with limited benefits. I'm trying to offer a compromise that the GOP has a chance in hell of supporting.

 

Sounds like the 3/5's law to me. They are a citizen, but only kinda one. There isn't a chance in hell that something like that stands up as legal.

[Balta1701]

Easily solved. Allow legal status to be in ths country, but with limited benefits. I'm trying to offer a compromise that the GOP has a chance in hell of supporting.

"Limited benefits" doesn't solve the key issue of the fact that if there's no path to citizenship they're in corporate indentured servitude.

[Balta1701]

Don Black is a Florida-based white supremacist who is deemed so dangerous he's banned from the UK for inciting hatred. Arizona State Senate Majority leader Chuck Gray—a proponent of the recent immigration bill—follows him on Twitter.

 

StormfrontWPWW (White Pride Worldwide) is the Twitter account for Stormfront, a racist organization that is the latest project of uber-racist Stephen Donald Black, better known as Don Black. He was a Grand Wizard in the KKK and a member of the American Nazi Party. In 1981 he was convicted and jailed for trying to invade the Dominican Republic with a boatload of weapons, in order to set up some kind of utopian state. (He's pictured below, at a conference organized by the infamous white supremacist David Duke.) Stormfront.org, the website he set up on his release from jail, is a hate-filled racist forum.

 

Arizona Republican Leader Follows White SupremacistIts Twitter account is one of 4,819 that Arizona State Senate Majority Leader Chuck Gray (top) follows. (See screenshot below.) Stormfront does not reciprocate, however—the group follows no one. Which means that Gray, or whoever is responsible for his Twitter account, sought out the racist organization specifically and decided its tweets were essential reading.

This is interesting...this is the first time I've seen an article published anywhere (even online) about people following controversial groups on twitter.

[EvilMonkey]

So if I went over to England and got a job, but never got citizenship, I would be considered a slave? What part of 'guest' makes you think 'permanent resident'? Guest workers should be just that, guests, not citizens. You get a guest worker permit or whatever,and no, you dont get deported the moment you lose your job.

[southsider2k5]

Here's a compromise. If the people who are here illegally can convince their country's of origin to either cover the cost of their stay here, or send a present value of their projected costs, then they can stay.

[DukeNukeEm]

Here's a compromise. If the people who are here illegally can convince their country's of origin to either cover the cost of their stay here, or send a present value of their projected costs, then they can stay.

Im glad were being reasonable.

[Balta1701]

So if I went over to England and got a job, but never got citizenship, I would be considered a slave? What part of 'guest' makes you think 'permanent resident'? Guest workers should be just that, guests, not citizens. You get a guest worker permit or whatever,and no, you dont get deported the moment you lose your job.

Which is an odd example, because the British immigration laws say that if you're there for 5 years as a worker, you're eligible for citizenship. No one's making "mandatory" citizenship something we're talking about here, but leaving the option open is important. If you've been there for the right number of years and you lose the job that's keeping you there legally, and you want to stay, you can then apply for citizenship.

 

There's also one other noteworthy distinction to make...if you're going from the U.S. to Britain, as opposed to Mexico to the U.S., there's usually a much larger downgrade in quality of life in returning to Mexico rather than returning to the U.S., which makes deportation a much more useful threat/punishment.

[Texsox]

Sounds like the 3/5's law to me. They are a citizen, but only kinda one. There isn't a chance in hell that something like that stands up as legal.

 

We have people working here on Visas, how is that different? I am saying they are not full citizens, they just have a legal right to be here. Call it by whatever name you like. Or change the Social Security and voting laws to eliminate anyone gaining citizenship through this program.

[Y2HH]

Which is an odd example, because the British immigration laws say that if you're there for 5 years as a worker, you're eligible for citizenship. No one's making "mandatory" citizenship something we're talking about here, but leaving the option open is important. If you've been there for the right number of years and you lose the job that's keeping you there legally, and you want to stay, you can then apply for citizenship.

 

There's also one other noteworthy distinction to make...if you're going from the U.S. to Britain, as opposed to Mexico to the U.S., there's usually a much larger downgrade in quality of life in returning to Mexico rather than returning to the U.S., which makes deportation a much more useful threat/punishment.

 

Being eligible for citizenship and being a citizen are two very different things. If you illegally enter Europe, leech off their government, get caught...they'll kick you out faster than the US would.

[Jenksismyhero]

Being eligible for citizenship and being a citizen are two very different things. If you illegally enter Europe, leech off their government, get caught...they'll kick you out faster than the US would.

 

 

But it's not their fault!

[Balta1701]

"The frustration with the federal government’s failure to deal with the issue of illegal immigration resulted in passage of a flawed state law. However intended, the result of passing this law is that our basic principles of equal rights and protection under the law are being called into question, and Arizona’s already struggling economy will suffer even further setbacks at a time when the state can ill-afford them."

-Phoenix Suns owner Robert Sarver, in a statement announcing that his team will wear their "Los Suns" jerseys for game 2 of their series with the Spurs.

[StrangeSox]

NBA fine forthcoming?

[southsider2k5]

Im glad were being reasonable.

 

I actually said this years ago. If you want to really solve the problem, take away the incentive to come here illegally. If it were my ball of wax, I would institute massive fines to employers who were caught with illegals on their payroll. Call it like $50,000 per instance. Then make sure that there is a level of enforcement, unlike most governmental regulators in this country. There will be no more talk about rounding everyone up and sending them back. The problem will solve itself to a large degree.

[Balta1701]

NBA fine forthcoming?

They reportedly cleared this with the league before making any statements.

[Balta1701]

I actually said this years ago. If you want to really solve the problem, take away the incentive to come here illegally. If it were my ball of wax, I would institute massive fines to employers who were caught with illegals on their payroll. Call it like $50,000 per instance. Then make sure that there is a level of enforcement, unlike most governmental regulators in this country. There will be no more talk about rounding everyone up and sending them back. The problem will solve itself to a large degree.

Having to pay a few tens of billions of dollars to clean up an oil spill has prevented oil spills.

 

Potentially winding up on the hook for billions in a gender discrimination suit definitely prevented that from being a problem.

[Balta1701]

Some additional Suns Quotes.

He followed up the statement by saying to reporters, "I looked around our plane and looked at our players and the diversity in our organization. I thought we need to go on record that we honor our diversity in our team, in the NBA and we need to show support for that. As for the political part of that, that's my statement. There are times you need to stand up and be heard. I respect people's views on the other side but I just felt it was appropriate for me to stand up and make a statement."

 

After Sarver spoke out, the team spoke out against the passage and signing of SB 1070.

 

Two-time MVP point guard Steve Nash, who in 2003 became the first athlete to go on record against the Iraq war said, "I think the law is very misguided. I think it is unfortunately to the detriment to our society and our civil liberties and I think it is very important for us to stand up for things we believe in. I think the law obviously can target opportunities for racial profiling. Things we don't want to see and don't need to see in 2010."

 

All-Star power forward Amare Stoudamire, who has no political reputation, also chimed in saying, "It's going to be great to wear Los Suns to let the Latin community know we're behind them 100%."

 

After the story broke, I spoke on the phone with NBA Players Association President Billy Hunter about the Suns audacious move.

"It's phenomenal," he said. "This makes it clear to me that it's a new era. It's a new time. Athletes can tend to be apolitical and isolated from the issues that impact the general public. But now here come the Suns. I would have expected nothing less from Steve Nash who has been out front on a number of issues over the years. I also want to recognize Amare. I know how strident Amare can be and I'm really impressed to see him channel his intensity. It shows a tremendous growth and maturity on his part. And I have to applaud Bob Sarver because he is really taking a risk by putting himself out there. I commend them. I just think it's super."

He said that the union would have their own statement out by the end of the week.

[Y2HH]

Having to pay a few tens of billions of dollars to clean up an oil spill has prevented oil spills.

 

Potentially winding up on the hook for billions in a gender discrimination suit definitely prevented that from being a problem.

 

The flaw with this logic is you are applying the resources of big oil (billions upon billions) to that of regular everyday companies who hire these people, which deal in millions (if they're lucky). While your point may hold water for billion dollar corporations with money to burn (like WalMart), these aren't the types of companies that [usually] tend to hire illegals in the first place. If/when they do, they get caught, they know they get caught, so they're usually smart enough to avoid it altogether.

 

The target here is the companies that DO cut corners and look for such illegals to vastly underpay, and these types of companies and/or individuals cannot typically afford to pay 50,000$ fines.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Y2HH

[Balta1701]

The flaw with this logic is you are applying the resources of big oil (billions upon billions) to that of regular everyday companies who hire these people, which deal in millions (if they're lucky). While your point may hold water for billion dollar corporations with money to burn (like WalMart), these aren't the types of companies that [usually] tend to hire illegals in the first place. If/when they do, they get caught, they know they get caught, so they're usually smart enough to avoid it altogether.

 

The target here is the companies that DO cut corners and look for such illegals to vastly underpay, and these types of companies and/or individuals cannot typically afford to pay 50,000$ fines.

I've gotten the impression that a lot of the jobs that immigrants take are in the construction and food processing industries, and whether we want to admit it or not, the days of the family farm are long since gone.

[Y2HH]

I've gotten the impression that a lot of the jobs that immigrants take are in the construction and food processing industries, and whether we want to admit it or not, the days of the family farm are long since gone.

 

Then up the fine to $50,000,000 for companies of certain size. Fixed.

 

Whatever the case may be, cut off the reason they come here illegally at the source, then open the gate for those who do it legally to prosper, rather than suffer as they do now.

 

Doing nothing isn't the answer.