Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[mr_genius]

Arizona's controversial immigration bill was signed many around the nation have called for boycotts on the state.

 

Civil rights organizations banned together at the state capitol Friday to announce the launch of the website www.boycottarizona.org.

 

Link

 

i just went to www.boycottarizona.org

 

for their sake, i hope they are better at boycotts than setting up websites

Edited May 1, 2010 by mr_genius

[Texsox]

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/dpp/news/local...-shot-4-30-2010

 

More fuel for the fire.....................

 

I guess they didn't want to provide their birth certificates?

[knightni]

Maybe Arizona's Native American law enforcement should require anyone who came to this country after them to have papers as well.

[mr_genius]

Maybe Arizona's Native American law enforcement

 

knightni, i have some bad news for you. they were pretty much all killed hundreds of years ago.

[knightni]

knightni, i have some bad news for you. they were pretty much all killed hundreds of years ago.

Sorry, your ancestors missed a few.

 

http://edrp.arid.arizona.edu/tribes.html

[Texsox]

Ironically, Arizona was created from land we took or bought from Mexico.

[mr_genius]

Ironically, Arizona was created from land we took or bought from Mexico.

 

Maybe they can just buy it back and we can end this whole episode. The US government could use the money (they are kinda in debt right now).

[southsider2k5]

Maybe they can just buy it back and we can end this whole episode. The US government could use the money (they are kinda in debt right now).

 

Its not like it would stop the invasion.

[knightni]

1821 Mexico:

 

http://blm.utep.edu/crta/images/1821.jpg

 

 

See any familiar ethnically lived in areas?

[mr_genius]

1821 Mexico:

 

http://blm.utep.edu/crta/images/1821.jpg

 

 

See any familiar ethnically lived in areas?

 

wouldn't that area in 1821 be considered the Viceroyalty of New Spain?

 

 

Edited May 3, 2010 by mr_genius

[knightni]

wouldn't that area in 1821 be considered the Viceroyalty of New Spain?

Not in 1821.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroyalty_of_New_Spain

 

In 1821, Mexico and Central America as its territory, declared their independence after three centuries of Spanish rule and formed the First Mexican Empire.

[mr_genius]

Not in 1821.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroyalty_of_New_Spain

 

The Spanish settlers breaking away form Spain like the U.S. revolutionaries breaking away from England. Very admirable. Anyways, if you guys think that stuff is going back to Spain it's probably time to put down the crack pipe lol. or is it?

 

shouldn't we give it back to it's rightful owners?

Edited May 3, 2010 by mr_genius

[Y2HH]

The Spanish settlers breaking away form Spain like the U.S. revolutionaries breaking away from England. Very admirable. Anyways, if you guys think that stuff is going back to Spain it's probably time to put down the crack pipe lol. or is it?

 

shouldn't we give it back to it's rightful owners?

 

No, we shouldn't. It's ours now.

[NorthSideSox72]

No, we shouldn't. It's ours now.

I'm pretty sure he was joking.

 

We won most of that land in wars, and then bought the final piece (Gadsden Purchase) some time in the 1880's I believe. Gadsden was done in order to put a railroad through - needed to get south of the mountainous areas of the Gila to make a line to SoCal, so we bought a sliver of land from the Gila River south to the current NM/AZ border. if we hadn't done that, we'd just be having the same problem further north.

 

[Middle Buffalo]

Here's a link to a Pulitzer Prize winning series that ran in the East Valley Tribune a year or so ago. It's a five part series, but worth a look just to see the lengths that law enforcement in Maricopa County sometimes goes to in order to have "reasonable suspicion." It might help to explain some of the fears that people have regarding SB1070.http://www.eastvalleytribune.com/page/reasonable_doubt

Edited May 3, 2010 by Middle Buffalo

[HuskyCaucasian]

Apparently future White Sox firstbaseman AGon has said he will boycott the 2011 All-Star game in AZ. There may be a push to move the game to another state.

[NorthSideSox72]

OK, if you were tasked with writing up a plan for dealing with illegal immigration and border control... considering all positive and negative consequences... what would you want to see done? What is the ideal plan here?

 

[Balta1701]

Apparently future White Sox firstbaseman AGon has said he will boycott the 2011 All-Star game in AZ. There may be a push to move the game to another state.

I don't think that the big whigs at MLB can move it until they see how its implemented and it winds up having a direct effect on them. The Union should make a crapload of noise, because its their 19 year old players who are going to wind up being deported. Baseball will, IMO, have a reason to make a move eventually if it gets enforced, but they need to wait until one of their players actually winds up in jail for not carrying proper ID.

[Balta1701]

OK, if you were tasked with writing up a plan for dealing with illegal immigration and border control... considering all positive and negative consequences... what would you want to see done? What is the ideal plan here?

Ideal plan in a hypothetical world or taking into reality the current situation of 15 million or so illegal residents already in country.

[Balta1701]

OK, if you were tasked with writing up a plan for dealing with illegal immigration and border control... considering all positive and negative consequences... what would you want to see done? What is the ideal plan here?

Ideal plan in a hypothetical world or taking into reality the current situation of 15 million or so illegal residents already in country.

[NorthSideSox72]

Ideal plan in a hypothetical world or taking into reality the current situation of 15 million or so illegal residents already in country.

Deal in the current reality as a starting point, but feel free to branch off into politically acceptable vs ideal from this point forward.

 

[Balta1701]

Deal in the current reality as a starting point, but feel free to branch off into politically acceptable vs ideal from this point forward.

The reason I started off with that question is I'm anticipating 2k5's response, because I've seen it before. His correct argument is that it makes no sense why Mexican immigrants should be given a huge advantage coming into this country over the rest of the world when poverty is rampant in so many other places, which is entirely true...but that winds up ignoring the 15 million or so people already here.

 

The solution is pretty well understood overall I'd say, if you accept that deportation is totally impractical for that large of a population.

 

1. Path to citizenship and legality for the 15 million people already here. Path to citizenship is 100% necessary, because otherwise, the workers are basically put into slavery; the employer can fire them for any reason and force them to be deported if they can't eventually earn citizenship. Pay a fine, register, etc.

 

2. Very large guest worker program, also with an eventual path to citizenship. Simple reality is...there wouldn't be any immigration problem if there weren't jobs for them, and if you restrict immigration beyond the point where the demand for workers at those wages can be satisfied, you're guaranteed an illegal immigration problem.

 

I think you can quibble with me on the exact details or on the exact numbers, but I think if you try to propose a fix that doesn't do those 2 things, your fix will eventaully fail.

 

You do those 2 things correctly and make the numbers allowed in large enough to satisfy demand, and the "enforcement" options likely become virtually unnecessary.

[Jenksismyhero]

The reason I started off with that question is I'm anticipating 2k5's response, because I've seen it before. His correct argument is that it makes no sense why Mexican immigrants should be given a huge advantage coming into this country over the rest of the world when poverty is rampant in so many other places, which is entirely true...but that winds up ignoring the 15 million or so people already here.

 

The solution is pretty well understood overall I'd say, if you accept that deportation is totally impractical for that large of a population.

 

1. Path to citizenship and legality for the 15 million people already here. Path to citizenship is 100% necessary, because otherwise, the workers are basically put into slavery; the employer can fire them for any reason and force them to be deported if they can't eventually earn citizenship. Pay a fine, register, etc.

 

2. Very large guest worker program, also with an eventual path to citizenship. Simple reality is...there wouldn't be any immigration problem if there weren't jobs for them, and if you restrict immigration beyond the point where the demand for workers at those wages can be satisfied, you're guaranteed an illegal immigration problem.

 

I think you can quibble with me on the exact details or on the exact numbers, but I think if you try to propose a fix that doesn't do those 2 things, your fix will eventaully fail.

 

You do those 2 things correctly and make the numbers allowed in large enough to satisfy demand, and the "enforcement" options likely become virtually unnecessary.

 

The problem is to what degree do we take those measures? If an illegal has been here working and utilizing all of the benefits of our system (free of charge) but sending all of his money to Mexico, what's the proper penalty? Back taxes? Fines? How long do we go back if he's been here for 20 years? That's the problem with a blanket "lets just create a way for them to stay."

 

And I agree a guest worker program of some sort needs to be implemented, and the path to citizenship should be overhauled. But I'm not exactly against the idea of limiting immigration to a point so that Americans can have a chance at those jobs. I'm not convinced that your average Americans are "too good" for those types of jobs these days.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jenksismybitch

[Balta1701]

The problem is to what degree do we take those measures? If an illegal has been here working and utilizing all of the benefits of our system (free of charge) but sending all of his money to Mexico, what's the proper penalty? Back taxes? Fines? How long do we go back if he's been here for 20 years? That's the problem with a blanket "lets just create a way for them to stay."

 

And I agree a guest worker program of some sort needs to be implemented, and the path to citizenship should be overhauled. But I'm not exactly against the idea of limiting immigration to a point so that Americans can have a chance at those jobs. I'm not convinced that your average Americans are "too good" for those types of jobs these days.

Glad we're already quibbling with the details. That suggests we're not too far apart.

 

IMO, it's impossible to figure out any way to deal with the first problem you cite other than a blanket fine. Basically, you pick a number, probably on the order of a few thousand dollars. If you pick a number that's too high, then people will simply stay undocumented rather than pay it, and likely wind up even harder to find. If you try to base it on the amount of time people have been in the country, you've got a mess because they're undocumented.

 

If you want an emotional justification for that proposal rather than an "it's the only way to do it that will actually work", remember this...it's not entirely their fault that they're here. The jobs are here, and the government has provided no means for them to fill those jobs. 90% of the problem would go away if the government was willing to solve it (the other 10% or so is unscrupulous employers who want to get around workplace/wage laws).

 

Naturally, there does have to be some limit and some sort of application process designed (warning...designing and implementing this process and then applying workplace safety rules will make the bill >1000 pages and therefore fully evil) where a company demonstrates that it has made the jobs available to citizens and the company has been unable to fill them at a wage that is at the minimum U.S. wage level, but again, the process cannot be too onerous, because all that will happen is the jobs will be kept off the books and filled by illegals.

[Texsox]

I'm pretty sure he was joking.

 

We won most of that land in wars, and then bought the final piece (Gadsden Purchase) some time in the 1880's I believe. Gadsden was done in order to put a railroad through - needed to get south of the mountainous areas of the Gila to make a line to SoCal, so we bought a sliver of land from the Gila River south to the current NM/AZ border. if we hadn't done that, we'd just be having the same problem further north.

 

That earns you an A for the day. Interestingly we paid the same for that sliver of land that we paid for all of the Louisiana purchase.

 

If you want to be technical, The Republic of Texas gained their independance, then years later was annexed into the United States.