Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Texsox]

First off there does need to be a guest worker program aligned with the needs of US business. There is a simple reason why Mexico and South America should be treated differently. We are talking about minimum wage jobs. Business can not afford to relocate someone from Africa, Europe, etc for a minimum wage position. These people can literally walk here. And often do.

 

My proposal will be an attempt to bridge both parties and give them both something to like.

 

As far as the millions that are already here, I do not go as far as Balta. There needs to be a mechanism for them to be here legally with the rights, but not all the benefits, of citizenship. If they have broken laws outside of immigration, no path to citizenship. They must be self sufficient, so if they are on public aid, no citizenship.

 

Benefits that I would not extend to these guest workers would include social security and voting. One path I would add is citizenship would automatically happen after four years of military service. Currently you have to die while serving to have that happen. Let's reward the successful soldiers as well.

 

I would also add in a change to our citizenship to exclude children of foreign nationals who are born here. Too many "tourists" seem to go into labor and have kids.

 

I wish I could fix the education system for the migrant workers. I've had several student withdraw the last couple days, heading north with their parents to work the fields. They will be back in November. Most years it means three different schools in two or three states. I just don't have a solution.

[NorthSideSox72]

Well since I asked the question, I suppose I should give a response.

 

The NSS Immigration Plan...

 

--Immigrant worker program tied in an agile way to job needs in the US. Visa programs work this way but are slow and cumbersome - need to devise a faster, more efficient way to implement it. Restrictions need to be automated and audited, instead of involving numerous peoples' manual time. This database can then be used to determine the true needs of industry.

 

--The immigrant worker program should reach out to nations with high levels of immigration (legal and illegal) to not only provide them with data on needs, but also to help them reach out to their residents to try to at least partially get the flow under some sort of control and documentation.

 

--The immigrant worker program should have a timetable for making their way towards citizenship, based on clean criminal record, ability to stay employed, etc.

 

--Anyone caught committing any crime in the US that is here illegally, is to be deported, no exceptions.

 

--Put serious money into enforcement of laws about hiring illegals by businesses and individuals, and further, but bigger "teeth" into the penalties in existing laws. You can't just pass laws, you need boots on the ground to go out there and root this out. Businesses that hire illegals should be fined the equivalent of the pay a worker would receive for each job they filled illegally, at the prevailing rate of pay. Multiple offending businesses can be seized by the government.

 

--Systems for checking worker status need to be automated and centrailized, with good data checking to ferret out signals that lead to potential violations.

 

--Information systems provided to state and local law enforcement need upgrades to be able to access and read the databases where they can determine status for a suspect. This can then be documented IF they are arrested or detained, for further action.

 

--Border controls on the southern border should include the electronic barrier system, coupled with a phalanx of response units. This project, just as a wall would, will run over budget - but it will cost a small fraction of a physical wall, and not have the negative environmental impact of the wall. Dense urban areas may require an actual wall, however.

 

--Harbors in the US need to have better transit control to check for illegal immigrants (this is complicated, and I admit I am not 100% sure how to do it).

 

--Any government agency that provides product or assistance to the legal residents of the US needs to verify identification thoroughly, and turn down anyone illegal, period. No exceptions.

 

--Any organization that provides services like health care can do whatever they want to, in so far as it pertains to their own money. Any support they expect to get from the government, they need to document status and justify, and if they cannot, they will get no reimbursement, except in the case of true emergency care.

 

--Individual people hiring illegals will face stiff fines just as businesses do, and be prosecuted for doing it multiple times, with potential jail time.

 

--National Guard units in border states should be deployed as part of the border control - this is far more valuable to the US than having them somewhere like Iraq.

 

--Finally, the biggest, toughest aspect - what to do with illegals already here that have avoided law enforcement. IMO, those people should be able to apply for the immigrant worker program THROUGH THEIR COUNTRY'S SYSTEM. Basically, go to the back of the line. If you do this, and everything else above, demand for illegals will dry up, many of these people will go back to their home countries, and we can get things back in order. The small number who are left here do still represent a problem - as they may become vagrants lost in American society. But this problem will be much smaller than it is now.

 

 

Maybe not the perfect solution, but, that's what I'd do at this point in time.

 

[southsider2k5]

Remember when I laughed at the figures being accurate for the health plan? What do we think 15,000,000 or so non-payers will do to the system? It was the same reaction as when Obama tried to tell us that illegals weren't going to be covered. Make them all citizens and wa-la, they are all covered, along with free welfare, social security, food stamps, etc. Great incentive there to not break the law, just like after the great amnesty of 1986 which was supposed to fix everything.

[NorthSideSox72]

Remember when I laughed at the figures being accurate for the health plan? What do we think 15,000,000 or so non-payers will do to the system? It was the same reaction as when Obama tried to tell us that illegals weren't going to be covered. Make them all citizens and wa-la, they are all covered, along with free welfare, social security, food stamps, etc. Great incentive there to not break the law, just like after the great amnesty of 1986 which was supposed to fix everything.

I suppose I should have mentioned this, I think it was obvious, but... the immigrant worker program or anything like it must require taxes to be paid like any other worker.

 

[knightni]

wa-la?

[Controlled Chaos]

Chain migration also needs to be addressed.

[Middle Buffalo]

wa-la?

I'm pretty sure SS2K5's real identity is Marshall Brodien. Every so often he forgets that this isn't Bozotalk.

[NorthSideSox72]

Chain migration also needs to be addressed.

Not sure what you'd do specifically about that, and I don't think you need to worry about it if you can shore up border controls and dry up the demand.

 

[The Ginger Kid]

Short (:58) film shot and edited by my co-worker this weekend:

 

[southsider2k5]

I suppose I should have mentioned this, I think it was obvious, but... the immigrant worker program or anything like it must require taxes to be paid like any other worker.

 

That's just it. In the income brackets we are talking about, people actually pay a negative tax rate. The bottom two quintiles are both like this. The bottom bracket is also the one where people primarily use the most social services, which are already overburdened and cost-overran. Immigration is going to force people to pay for a near freeride for another however many people are out there. Pick the number you believe.

[Controlled Chaos]

Not sure what you'd do specifically about that, and I don't think you need to worry about it if you can shore up border controls and dry up the demand.

They can revert it back to spouses and minor children only. Pretty much any immediate family member can be sponsored now.

[BigSqwert]

Just wanted to interject a little story. Went to a baptism and luncheon yesterday in the burbs for a childhood friend's daughter. The wife and I were assigned to sit at a table with a bunch of people we didn't know. Somehow the topic of conversation switched to Arizona and the immigration issue. The 2 of us proceeded to listen to everyone else comment on their opinions on the matter which included everything from the least alarming ("round 'em all up and ship 'em out!") to the disconcerting ("they should have M-16s set up along the border with heat sensors to kill on sight"). And this was a very serious discussion, not lighthearted barbs. It was hard to bite my tongue sitting at a table of ultra right wingers but it made me sad that there are so many people out there with absolutely zero compassion.

[Y2HH]

Just wanted to interject a little story. Went to a baptism and luncheon yesterday in the burbs for a childhood friend's daughter. The wife and I were assigned to sit at a table with a bunch of people we didn't know. Somehow the topic of conversation switched to Arizona and the immigration issue. The 2 of us proceeded to listen to everyone else comment on their opinions on the matter which included everything from the least alarming ("round 'em all up and ship 'em out!") to the disconcerting ("they should have M-16s set up along the border with heat sensors to kill on sight"). And this was a very serious discussion, not lighthearted barbs. It was hard to bite my tongue sitting at a table of ultra right wingers but it made me sad that there are so many people out there with absolutely zero compassion.

 

That doesn't mean they have zero compassion. I think it'd take more than a singular conversation to make such a judgment on a person.

 

I personally have rather harsh opinions on the immigration issue, however, I'm not without compassion, and I'm sure they aren't, either.

[BigSqwert]

"they should have M-16s set up along the border with heat sensors to kill on sight"

 

 

That doesn't mean they have zero compassion. I think it'd take more than a singular conversation to make such a judgment on a person.

 

[Y2HH]

 

Sometimes people tend to get heated in political discussions, they should always be accounted for. People often say over the top things, such as that, in such discussions. Take them with a grain of salt.

[BigSqwert]

Sometimes people tend to get heated in political discussions, they should always be accounted for. People often say over the top things, such as that, in such discussions. Take them with a grain of salt.

Of the 4 other couples at the table, none of them disagreed with that suggestion. In fact, they all thought it was reasonable. I was floored.

 

Perhaps I was raised differently but advocating murder is unacceptable.

[Controlled Chaos]

Of the 4 other couples at the table, none of them disagreed with that suggestion. In fact, they all thought it was reasonable. I was floored.

 

Perhaps I was raised differently but advocating murder is unacceptable.

Think you need to look up the word murder.

[BigSqwert]

Think you need to look up the word murder.

Having machine guns set up to automatically kill anything that moves = murder in most sane people's standards.

[Controlled Chaos]

Having machine guns set up to automatically kill anything that moves = murder in most sane people's standards.

I'm not agreeing with that by the way. I just think they meant for it more like self defense. Kinda like defending your home from intruders...if someone breaks in and I shoot and kill him...it's not murder.

[Middle Buffalo]

Having machine guns set up to automatically kill anything that moves = murder in most sane people's standards.

You're discounting the possibility of the immigrants ducking or outrunning the bullets. In that case, they're just warning shots.

[Cknolls]

Of the 4 other couples at the table, none of them disagreed with that suggestion. In fact, they all thought it was reasonable. I was floored.

 

Perhaps I was raised differently but advocating murder is unacceptable.

 

 

Except when its inside a woman.

[Jenksismyhero]

Except when its inside a woman.

 

 

[GoSox05]

Oh boy.

[Balta1701]

My proposal will be an attempt to bridge both parties and give them both something to like.

 

As far as the millions that are already here, I do not go as far as Balta. There needs to be a mechanism for them to be here legally with the rights, but not all the benefits, of citizenship. If they have broken laws outside of immigration, no path to citizenship. They must be self sufficient, so if they are on public aid, no citizenship.

 

Benefits that I would not extend to these guest workers would include social security and voting. One path I would add is citizenship would automatically happen after four years of military service. Currently you have to die while serving to have that happen. Let's reward the successful soldiers as well.

 

I would also add in a change to our citizenship to exclude children of foreign nationals who are born here. Too many "tourists" seem to go into labor and have kids.

Ok Tex, here's my simple counterpoint to the no citizenship argument. Let's say, for example, that I'm an employer, let's call me WalPetroleumMassey, and I want to make as much money as possible doing whatever it is I do, running harvesting equipment or construction or whatever. So, I decide I want to pay a lot of migrant workers below minimum wage and I want to eliminate safety precautions to save money.

 

Now, if you're an American worker, you have several options. You can quit, and try to find another job. Or, you can report them to the government for violating a ton of rules, and likely be considered a whistleblower. You could organize a union. With American workers, of course, sometimes this won't happen, but usually that's because you've got a very well paid worker who doesn't want to risk losing his or her job by being a malcontent.

 

On the other hand...if you're here on a guest worker program and you have zero path to citizenship, if you lose your position, you're suddenly an illegal immigrant. You're deported. So, basically, as long as the conditions you're working here are better than the conditions you'd face in Mexico, you have a huge incentive to shut up and work in whatever conditions you're told to work in, because you have no negotiating power until you become a citizen. Oh yeah, you can imagine that the feds might inspect the place and issue a few fines once every decade or so, but really, come on, there aren't even enough Federal inspectors any more to find the current illegal immigrants, or to enforce mining/drilling regulations, whatever.

 

A guest worker program without a path to citizenship is an indentured servitude plan. The people come here with no possibility of ever moving up beyond the position they start off in, and it's designed for corporate abuse.

[knightni]

Oh boy.

INCOMING!!!!