Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Texsox]

The Top 5 Signs Someone Is an Illegal Alien

 

 

5> Whenever Kiefer Sutherland appears on TV, he immediately leaps

out the window.

 

4> Doesn't appreciate the robust, frothy goodness that is

Budweiser beer.

 

3> If within a 250-mile radius, Glenn Beck's tinfoil hat starts

to pulsate and give off sparks.

 

2> Invites the Census worker in, gives her a cup of coffee and

cookies and politely answers every question with a smile.

 

 

and Topfive.com's Number 1 Sign Someone Is an Illegal Alien...

 

 

1> Likes to eat at Denny's -- while sober.

[Texsox]

If a company accepts a counterfeit $50 bill they are out $50. If they accept a counterfeit birth certificate and social security card they are out $50,000,000?? Doesn't seem correct.

[FlaSoxxJim]

If a company accepts a counterfeit $50 bill they are out $50. If they accept a counterfeit birth certificate and social security card they are out $50,000,000?? Doesn't seem correct.

 

No it certainly doesn't. My assumption in non-Bizzaro World situations is that the employer would have to be shown to have knowingly hired an undocumented worker -- not merely that they have been duped into doing so.

 

Is this not the case in some instances?

[Y2HH]

No it certainly doesn't. My assumption in non-Bizzaro World situations is that the employer would have to be shown to have knowingly hired an undocumented worker -- not merely that they have been duped into doing so.

 

Is this not the case in some instances?

 

Exactly.

 

While papers may be "forged", it's EASY to check if they're legit. Aside from a pure identity theft case, in which the persons name and SSN are actually valid, forged/falsified documents will not check out, if they're checked out as they should be, simply because the information a) won't match, or B) won't exist in government computers.

 

In the case it was via an identity theft, the company wouldn't be liable as they can show they were duped with legit information, albeit stolen, they did their due diligence. However, the identity thief should be tossed in prison for life. Identity theft is a crime that cannot be overlooked anymore, as it is and will become even BIGGER than it is now in the future.

 

Send the damn message that it's not tolerated one way or another, not here and not anywhere else, either. Ignoring the issue doesn't help. And it does nothing but harm those who actually go through the legit process of coming here.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Y2HH

[Texsox]

Actually it is not as easy at it would seem. There are literally tens of thousands of different birth certificates in this country. Cities, counties, etc all have different versions. People pass along social security cards. Down here there are public service messages about NOT carrying your social security card around. And this sort of identity theft is often ignored by the "victim" who sees additioal contributions to their social security account. What judges and juries will have to decide is how much effort is reasonable for an employer to make in checking out these identifications. Finding out your employer is out of business and you are out of a job, because four guys in the factory used fake identification will leave some Americans in a pretty bad spot. I'm not certain we want to go down that path. We will find very few larger employers with employees without any documentation working for cash. That will be on the smaller farms, restaurants, and construction crews. We will also find citizens working for cash to avoid IRS leins, ex-spouses, social security and pension troubles, etc.

Exactly.

 

While papers may be "forged", it's EASY to check if they're legit. Aside from a pure identity theft case, in which the persons name and SSN are actually valid, forged/falsified documents will not check out, if they're checked out as they should be, simply because the information a) won't match, or B) won't exist in government computers.

 

In the case it was via an identity theft, the company wouldn't be liable as they can show they were duped with legit information, albeit stolen, they did their due diligence. However, the identity thief should be tossed in prison for life. Identity theft is a crime that cannot be overlooked anymore, as it is and will become even BIGGER than it is now in the future.

 

Send the damn message that it's not tolerated one way or another, not here and not anywhere else, either. Ignoring the issue doesn't help. And it does nothing but harm those who actually go through the legit process of coming here.

[Balta1701]

Of course...we could overhaul the ID theft laws, but that would annoy the banks, so that can't be done.

[Texsox]

The problem as I see it is effort and intent. If we made it a crime to accept a forged $20 imagine how much effort people may go through to verify if their change is authentic. How much effort did you last employer do to check if you were legal? They took and item from column A and an item from column B, photocopied them and placed them in your file. I think they can do more, but how much more? There are no standards for birth certificates. Maybe a national right to work card is a good idea, but how much would that cost versus implementing a guest worker program that actually benefits American business?

Of course...we could overhaul the ID theft laws, but that would annoy the banks, so that can't be done.

[Y2HH]

The problem as I see it is effort and intent. If we made it a crime to accept a forged $20 imagine how much effort people may go through to verify if their change is authentic. How much effort did you last employer do to check if you were legal? They took and item from column A and an item from column B, photocopied them and placed them in your file. I think they can do more, but how much more? There are no standards for birth certificates. Maybe a national right to work card is a good idea, but how much would that cost versus implementing a guest worker program that actually benefits American business?

 

Actually, my last 5 employers did deep background checks on me, drug tests, etc. And we aren't just talking huge corporations here, but a few very small companies that did these same things (1 of which had less than 20 employees). So um...I don't know what you're talking about. The means to check people exist, but because some companies are lazy we should just ignore it?! I think not. MOST modern employers do background checks...they don't just photocopy ID's and stick them in folders.

 

If they don't have VALID US I.D./papers FROM the US on their entry, then they shouldn't be hired. Who cares about foreign papers or birth certificates, that's not for US employers to examine or accept. They can go to the US Government with those and start the process as they're supposed too. If these government papers are forged/fake, a background check will reveal them to not really exist and to be fakes. If they're cases of ID theft, again, the company in question cannot be held liable, however, the crime of ID theft needs to be of major consequence.

[BigSqwert]

Actually, my last 5 employers did deep background checks on me, drug tests, etc.

I take it you weren't applying for a job to pick lettuce?

[Balta1701]

however, the crime of ID theft needs to be of major consequence.

Oops, now you've made Bank of America mad. You're in trouble now.

[southsider2k5]

I take it you weren't applying for a job to pick lettuce?

 

Nice stereotype.

[BigSqwert]

Nice stereotype.

I'm sure the statistics will back me up that the issue Arizonians have have nothing to do with white collar illegal aliens.

[Texsox]

I have abirth certificate issued by the Chicago. My kids from Lake Forest. My girlfriend from a small town in Texas that no longer exists as a town. They all look different. Are you really suggesting deep background checks for seasonal workers? It's not being lazy it's spending hundreds of dollars for a position that will pay a few thousand. What would a deep background check show for a 16 year old applying for their first job? Drug tests are cheap, but do not establish citizenship. Most modern employers do not do background checks on their minimum wage employees that would establish citizenship.

Actually, my last 5 employers did deep background checks on me, drug tests, etc. And we aren't just talking huge corporations here, but a few very small companies that did these same things (1 of which had less than 20 employees). So um...I don't know what you're talking about. The means to check people exist, but because some companies are lazy we should just ignore it?! I think not. MOST modern employers do background checks...they don't just photocopy ID's and stick them in folders.

 

If they don't have VALID US I.D./papers FROM the US on their entry, then they shouldn't be hired. Who cares about foreign papers or birth certificates, that's not for US employers to examine or accept. They can go to the US Government with those and start the process as they're supposed too. If these government papers are forged/fake, a background check will reveal them to not really exist and to be fakes. If they're cases of ID theft, again, the company in question cannot be held liable, however, the crime of ID theft needs to be of major consequence.

[EvilMonkey]

I have abirth certificate issued by the Chicago. My kids from Lake Forest. My girlfriend from a small town in Texas that no longer exists as a town. They all look different. Are you really suggesting deep background checks for seasonal workers? It's not being lazy it's spending hundreds of dollars for a position that will pay a few thousand. What would a deep background check show for a 16 year old applying for their first job? Drug tests are cheap, but do not establish citizenship. Most modern employers do not do background checks on their minimum wage employees that would establish citizenship.

Tex, at least as of a few years back when I still had my store open, I was required to fax info about all new employees to the state so they could check for child support orders. The info included name, dob and ss number. How hard is it to tap into that info and at least see if the name and ssn actually match? That is a quick and easy way to start, since most people stealing ssn's don't keep the original name.

[Texsox]

Actually from what I've heard down here they will use the name if it matches well. Which is another reason why having "illegal looking" citizens carrying identification papers seems like a terrible idea. Basicaly if a male hispanic around the same dob walks in and says his name is Juan Guerra and the birth certiifcate and social security card say Juan Guerra, and they are looking for someone to work for six weeks at a produce shed, I have some empathy.

Tex, at least as of a few years back when I still had my store open, I was required to fax info about all new employees to the state so they could check for child support orders. The info included name, dob and ss number. How hard is it to tap into that info and at least see if the name and ssn actually match? That is a quick and easy way to start, since most people stealing ssn's don't keep the original name.

[Texsox]

In the interest of collecting taxes, the IRS looks the other way when someone seems to be working four jobs in three states at the same time. Same with Social Security. The person whose identity is being used learns of it when the IRS contacts them about unreported income. Another problem is people will actually allow it to happen. They will allow a friend or family member to use their ID. They receive credit towards Social Security and a refund of the taxes paid so they "win". The illegal works the job and the citizen collects the benefits. Do a background check or whatever and it all looks legit.

 

 

[Y2HH]

Then I guess the solution actually is to start killing them on sight since you don't think any other solution is viable. Guess we should just give up!

 

It can be done, despite the excuses I'm hearing here.

[Texsox]

Do you really think deep background checks for temporary, minimum wage jobs is a solution or a bandaid? Here is an example. A watermelon packing shed near me operates for about 4 months. They need around 600 employees when they are at full capacity. These employees are paid around minimum wage. When they finish there some are hired at the local citrus sheds. Then they are heading north for other crops. They will probably work for half a dozen different employers before the year is over. You want each of those employers to spend hundreds of dollars conducting deep background checks on every employee? You will destroy our Ag industry in America and make us even more dependent on foreign grown food.

Then I guess the solution actually is to start killing them on sight since you don't think any other solution is viable. Guess we should just give up!

 

It can be done, despite the excuses I'm hearing here.

[StrangeSox]

It also makes it a giant pain in the ass for employers to hire anyone who *might* be an illegal immigrant, so they may be more likely to pass on anyone fitting the profile.

[southsider2k5]

So why is this "giant pain in the ass" so much worse than any of the others that we require as a government, or want to see passed?

[Texsox]

Great point. We already require multiple proof of the right to work. I believe we both would agree that there is a range of acceptable. Less and it isn't enough, more and it is too much. It is even more of an issue when the additional requirements do not address the core problem, but are a simple bandaid, or worse, capitulating to a block of voters without doing any real good. Much like ties go to the runner, I would like to see a great deal of proof that an employer willingly and knowingly hired illegals or anyone working for cash before jeopradizing the jobs of innocent people at the company. But I've always been a huge pro business guy. I want to see small business thrive and placing a death penalty on being fooled by an illegal seems to hurt us more than help.

So why is this "giant pain in the ass" so much worse than any of the others that we require as a government, or want to see passed?

[EvilMonkey]

. Much like ties go to the runner, I would like to see a great deal of proof that an employer willingly and knowingly hired illegals or anyone working for cash before jeopradizing the jobs of innocent people at the company.

Tex, I am not sure what you are reading, but I believe that everyone here agrees with that statement, and has expressed that as well. You keep bringing it up as if people are against that.

[Texsox]

I actually said this years ago. If you want to really solve the problem, take away the incentive to come here illegally. If it were my ball of wax, I would institute massive fines to employers who were caught with illegals on their payroll. Call it like $50,000 per instance. Then make sure that there is a level of enforcement, unlike most governmental regulators in this country. There will be no more talk about rounding everyone up and sending them back. The problem will solve itself to a large degree.

 

 

Then up the fine to $50,000,000 for companies of certain size. Fixed.

 

Whatever the case may be, cut off the reason they come here illegally at the source, then open the gate for those who do it legally to prosper, rather than suffer as they do now.

 

Doing nothing isn't the answer.

 

 

Tex, I am not sure what you are reading, but I believe that everyone here agrees with that statement, and has expressed that as well. You keep bringing it up as if people are against that.

[StrangeSox]

So why is this "giant pain in the ass" so much worse than any of the others that we require as a government, or want to see passed?

 

This specifically discourages hiring immigrants and people who might "seem" foreign out of fear of large fines if they end up being here illegally and the government feels you didn't do your due-dilligence.

 

It's also foisting the responsibility of immigration control onto businesses and then fining them if they don't do it right.

 

It's just something to consider--I really don't know what a good solution is.

[southsider2k5]

This specifically discourages hiring immigrants and people who might "seem" foreign out of fear of large fines if they end up being here illegally and the government feels you didn't do your due-dilligence.

 

It's also foisting the responsibility of immigration control onto businesses and then fining them if they don't do it right.

 

It's just something to consider--I really don't know what a good solution is.

 

So we should cancel the health care bill then?