Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Balta1701]

So the penalty shouldn't fit the crime?

So immigration violations should now be felonies?

[southsider2k5]

So immigration violations should now be felonies?

 

If someone is in the country illegally, having made no effort to do so legally, yes. 100% yes. Overstaying a visa by a day is one thing. Entering the country by sneaking over a border is another. It should make it impossible to ever become a citizen IMO.

[Balta1701]

If someone is in the country illegally, having made no effort to do so legally, yes. 100% yes. Overstaying a visa by a day is one thing. Entering the country by sneaking over a border is another. It should make it impossible to ever become a citizen IMO.

I have an urge to go back a few pages to where the Arizonians were complaining about how much they were paying to put the small fraction of non-citizens they have confined in their jails. Then I want to magnify that by 12 million.

[southsider2k5]

I have an urge to go back a few pages to where the Arizonians were complaining about how much they were paying to put the small fraction of non-citizens they have confined in their jails. Then I want to magnify that by 12 million.

 

It goes back to removing the incentives to commit illegal acts. Consider it just like the damage cap that BP has in the gulf. Neither one of them should exist.

[Balta1701]

It goes back to removing the incentives to commit illegal acts. Consider it just like the damage cap that BP has in the gulf. Neither one of them should exist.

So...do you think that if the penalties for the oil spill in the gulf hadn't been capped...BP would have had better safety precautions? No.

 

You want to prevent oil spills, you remove the need for oil entirely. You want to prevent illegal immigration...you set up a legal guest worker program.

[southsider2k5]

So...do you think that if the penalties for the oil spill in the gulf hadn't been capped...BP would have had better safety precautions? No.

 

You want to prevent oil spills, you remove the need for oil entirely. You want to prevent illegal immigration...you set up a legal guest worker program.

 

I have no problem with a non-racist guest worker program. But It still doesn't take away the incentive to hire someone illegally for cheaper.

[Balta1701]

I have no problem with a non-racist guest worker program. But It still doesn't take away the incentive to hire someone illegally for cheaper.

But if the program is actually designed well enough that people who want to get into the program and have jobs can do so...there's very little benefit to the worker to come here illegally, because the worker would have to work for a lower wage.

[southsider2k5]

But if the program is actually designed well enough that people who want to get into the program and have jobs can do so...there's very little benefit to the worker to come here illegally, because the worker would have to work for a lower wage.

 

That is exactly what people are doing now!

[Balta1701]

That is exactly what people are doing now!

No it's not...because if they want to come here and work, there is no legal means for them to do so. There are more jobs available than there are immigration slots available. Their only choice is to do so illegally.

[southsider2k5]

No it's not...because if they want to come here and work, there is no legal means for them to do so. There are more jobs available than there are immigration slots available. Their only choice is to do so illegally.

 

And they are hired because they are willing to work for less than they can hire American's for.

[Balta1701]

And they are hired because they are willing to work for less than they can hire American's for.

So, you'd argue that given the option of working for a higher wage or a lower wage, they'd choose the lower one, because that's what would be required for people to choose to continue being illegal immigrants if the option to become legal was offered.

[southsider2k5]

So, you'd argue that given the option of working for a higher wage or a lower wage, they'd choose the lower one, because that's what would be required for people to choose to continue being illegal immigrants if the option to become legal was offered.

 

I'm saying even if you put a program into place, there would still be people who didn't go through the program who came to the United States and worked illegally for less money, because there would be no reason not to. In other words, without incentive to not do it, it will still happen.

[Balta1701]

I'm saying even if you put a program into place, there would still be people who didn't go through the program who came to the United States and worked illegally for less money, because there would be no reason not to. In other words, without incentive to not do it, it will still happen.

An incentive not to do it...like a higher wage if you don't. You can get rid of 90% of the problem with a positive incentive.

 

Anyway...I'm not silly enough to say that the law shouldn't be enforced at all. It's really just not necessary to spend tens of billions of dollars doing so though.

[southsider2k5]

An incentive not to do it...like a higher wage if you don't. You can get rid of 90% of the problem with a positive incentive.

 

Anyway...I'm not silly enough to say that the law shouldn't be enforced at all. It's really just not necessary to spend tens of billions of dollars doing so though.

 

Just because you have a worker program, doesn't mean everyone who wants to come to the US will get to do so. There will still be people who either fall after the quotas, don't qualify for other reasons, or just aren't willing/able to go through all of the bureaucratic paperwork do so. Those people will still stream into the US illegally, because there will still be people wanting to save a buck to make a buck.

[Balta1701]

Just because you have a worker program, doesn't mean everyone who wants to come to the US will get to do so. There will still be people who either fall after the quotas, don't qualify for other reasons, or just aren't willing/able to go through all of the bureaucratic paperwork do so. Those people will still stream into the US illegally, because there will still be people wanting to save a buck to make a buck.

And now suddenly you're dealing with half a million people rather than 12 million people...and instead of a thriving illegal immigrant community, you've made the illegal immigrants the enemy of the legal immigrants because they're taking the guest-workers jobs. So, you suddenly have people willing to report those businesses.

[southsider2k5]

And now suddenly you're dealing with half a million people rather than 12 million people...and instead of a thriving illegal immigrant community, you've made the illegal immigrants the enemy of the legal immigrants because they're taking the guest-workers jobs. So, you suddenly have people willing to report those businesses.

 

Um, you have legal immigrants now. You also have legal workers. Why isn't that happening now?

[Balta1701]

Um, you have legal immigrants now. You also have legal workers. Why isn't that happening now?

Because the quotas are way, way, way too low to satisfy the demand for workers or to keep families from being split apart. And since the quotas are so restrictive, there is very little reason for a legal immigrant to feel offended by an illegal immigrant taking a job.

 

Really, when we get right down to it, that is problem #1 here. It's like Quentin's bat. Everything else that looks bad stems from that gigantic, overarching issue.

 

When Reagan issued his amnesty in the 80's, that was the problem, his amnesty was a band-aid. Border fences are a band-aid. Fining employers is a band-aid.

 

You fix that problem in an intelligent way...and the other problems will nearly correct themselves.

[southsider2k5]

Because the quotas are way, way, way too low to satisfy the demand for workers or to keep families from being split apart. And since the quotas are so restrictive, there is very little reason for a legal immigrant to feel offended by an illegal immigrant taking a job.

 

Really, when we get right down to it, that is problem #1 here. It's like Quentin's bat. Everything else that looks bad stems from that gigantic, overarching issue.

 

When Reagan issued his amnesty in the 80's, that was the problem, his amnesty was a band-aid. Border fences are a band-aid. Fining employers is a band-aid.

 

You fix that problem in an intelligent way...and the other problems will nearly correct themselves.

 

That makes no sense. A person taking someones job illegally is a person taking someone's job illegally. If it is happening a lot, shouldn't that upset people more?

[Texsox]

So the penalty shouldn't fit the crime?

 

The penalty should fit the crime, the time between arrest and trial should also fit the crime. We allow accused murders out on bail, shouldn't there be bail for this?

[Texsox]

I have no problem with a non-racist guest worker program. But It still doesn't take away the incentive to hire someone illegally for cheaper.

 

Which includes hiring citizens and paying them cash.

 

The fact is immigrants from Mexico and South America can arrive here for a few hundred bucks and a lot of walking. It just doesn't make sense for employers spending more, or immigrants spending more, on jobs that pay minimum wage. So this is where the pool of workers will come from. Not racist, it's simple economics. It is also based on a hundred years of workers doing just this.

[Texsox]

And they are hired because they are willing to work for less than they can hire American's for.

 

Is that a bad thing? Doesn't it mean our education system works?

 

Also, wages are not the total picture. They are willing to work in industries that others will not. My greatest concern is the agriculture industry.

[Texsox]

That makes no sense. A person taking someones job illegally is a person taking someone's job illegally. If it is happening a lot, shouldn't that upset people more?

 

I have to agree with you here. The one argument I have no reply for are those legal immigrants who say, "I did it legally, they should have to also",

[southsider2k5]

Which includes hiring citizens and paying them cash.

 

The fact is immigrants from Mexico and South America can arrive here for a few hundred bucks and a lot of walking. It just doesn't make sense for employers spending more, or immigrants spending more, on jobs that pay minimum wage. So this is where the pool of workers will come from. Not racist, it's simple economics. It is also based on a hundred years of workers doing just this.

 

I've said before if we are going to do a program like this, it is essentially based on need. If people didn't feel that they needed a better life, they wouldn't come here in the first place. Personally I don't feel that just because Mexico is the closest to the US, that they should be the most favored nation. I would rather see us taylor our program towards saving people in REAL need. I'm not talking about just poverty, I am talking about people in war torn areas, people living through famines, people suffering genocide, people who are political targets. With all of the really desperate situations in the world, we can do better than being Mexico's welfare program.

[Balta1701]

With all of the really desperate situations in the world, we can do better than being Mexico's welfare program.

Of course...Republican/free market worship style ideology would suggest that if we work as Mexico's welfare program and that helps stimulate their economy, we benefit directly because that creates a market in Mexico for U.S. goods and services.

[southsider2k5]

Of course...Republican/free market worship style ideology would suggest that if we work as Mexico's welfare program and that helps stimulate their economy, we benefit directly because that creates a market in Mexico for U.S. goods and services.

 

At the expense of our own workers and people.