Arizona requires you to carry your papers

[Balta1701]

At the expense of our own workers and people.

So, you're in favor of ending NAFTA then?

[southsider2k5]

So, you're in favor of ending NAFTA then?

 

Are you really turning NAFTA into illegal immigration?

[Balta1701]

Are you really turning NAFTA into illegal immigration?

Well, you just argued in favor of legal protectionism as a way to protect U.S. jobs. So, yeah. Either moving currency is a rising tide that lifts all boats, or it isn't.

[southsider2k5]

Well, you just argued in favor of legal protectionism as a way to protect U.S. jobs. So, yeah. Either moving currency is a rising tide that lifts all boats, or it isn't.

 

That is like saying since you haven't sent me your paycheck yet, you don't believe in social services. Either forced service is a rising tide that lifts all boats, or it isn't.

[Texsox]

I agree. Would you agree with the idea that a healthy Mexico is best for our security?

I've said before if we are going to do a program like this, it is essentially based on need. If people didn't feel that they needed a better life, they wouldn't come here in the first place. Personally I don't feel that just because Mexico is the closest to the US, that they should be the most favored nation. I would rather see us taylor our program towards saving people in REAL need. I'm not talking about just poverty, I am talking about people in war torn areas, people living through famines, people suffering genocide, people who are political targets. With all of the really desperate situations in the world, we can do better than being Mexico's welfare program.

[StrangeSox]

The new law isn't even in effect yet, but we already have a good example of how terrible and racist it is:

 

 

FWIW these practices have been common-place in American Hero Sherriff Joe Arpaio's county for a while.

[southsideirish71]

 

At least the educators are helping.

 

[Texsox]

I can't even watch that entire video.

[lostfan]

I mostly agree with 2K5's arguments in the last few pages, not necessarily on ideas for solutions, but at least on cause/effect type of stuff.

[mr_genius]

 

At least the educators are helping.

 

this guy needs to star in some campaign ads

 

[Middle Buffalo]

I've said before if we are going to do a program like this, it is essentially based on need. If people didn't feel that they needed a better life, they wouldn't come here in the first place. Personally I don't feel that just because Mexico is the closest to the US, that they should be the most favored nation. I would rather see us taylor our program towards saving people in REAL need. I'm not talking about just poverty, I am talking about people in war torn areas, people living through famines, people suffering genocide, people who are political targets. With all of the really desperate situations in the world, we can do better than being Mexico's welfare program.

I was talking to my wife's Mom on Mother's Day, and she told me what had just happened to her cousin in Mexico. Her cousin lives in a border town in Mexico. Someone from one of the cartels showed up at her house one day and gave the cousin and her husband a choice. Work for the cartel packaging drugs, or their whole family would be killed. They had 24 hours to agree or they could leave without incident, but the cartel was seizing their house in 24 hours. The same offer was made to all their neighbors. So they came to the US illegally.

 

This isn't a unique situation. This type of intimidation has been happening for 20+ years in Mexico - and not just in the border towns. The people have nowhere to turn because the government is corrupted by the cartels. The law enforcement is corrupted by the cartels. And believe it or not, our Border Patrol has been corrupted by the cartels. The cartels give you a choice. Work with us or you and your family die. Some choice.

 

Another example of the corruption of the Mexican police:

A friend of mine took a job in Mexico city. He's white, so he stood out. One day he was walking through the center of town, and a cop took him by the arm and started to question him about some nonsense and tried to get him into his police car. My friend said it just didn't seem right, so he broke free from the cop and started running toward another cop he saw directing traffic. The cop who had grabbed my friend didn't pursue. He was just looking to kidnap and empty my friend's bank accounts. My friend quit his job and left immediately. Successful Mexicans don't have that chance.

 

 

[Y2HH]

I was talking to my wife's Mom on Mother's Day, and she told me what had just happened to her cousin in Mexico. Her cousin lives in a border town in Mexico. Someone from one of the cartels showed up at her house one day and gave the cousin and her husband a choice. Work for the cartel packaging drugs, or their whole family would be killed. They had 24 hours to agree or they could leave without incident, but the cartel was seizing their house in 24 hours. The same offer was made to all their neighbors. So they came to the US illegally.

 

This isn't a unique situation. This type of intimidation has been happening for 20+ years in Mexico - and not just in the border towns. The people have nowhere to turn because the government is corrupted by the cartels. The law enforcement is corrupted by the cartels. And believe it or not, our Border Patrol has been corrupted by the cartels. The cartels give you a choice. Work with us or you and your family die. Some choice.

 

Another example of the corruption of the Mexican police:

A friend of mine took a job in Mexico city. He's white, so he stood out. One day he was walking through the center of town, and a cop took him by the arm and started to question him about some nonsense and tried to get him into his police car. My friend said it just didn't seem right, so he broke free from the cop and started running toward another cop he saw directing traffic. The cop who had grabbed my friend didn't pursue. He was just looking to kidnap and empty my friend's bank accounts. My friend quit his job and left immediately. Successful Mexicans don't have that chance.

 

So the American people should bow down to the cartels and just pay for all the illegals that come here because of the cartels is the answer?

 

Not for nothing, but it's not our problem. And I don't mean to sound insensitive...but you know, it's a big world out there and a LOT of nations have problems. People are starving in China, Africa, and a number of other places, with little to no choice -- maybe we should bring them all here and save them, too. I realize they don't have the simple means of jumping a boarder, but the point is, we can't solve the entire worlds problems...any attempt to do so would destroy our own country, too.

 

I really wish it were like Star Trek, money didn't exist, and everyone lived in the perfect world.

 

But again, a lot of people in this world don't have a choice, we are blessed to have been born here, and there are plenty of other nations where you could feel blessed to be born. And then there are the many that you're born into a nightmare. The US isn't going to solve the worlds problems...maybe someday, but not in our lifetimes.

 

The money is spread thinner and thinner. The world is overpopulated and there will always be problems. But heaving those problems onto the backs of the American people while the rest of the world turns the other way and pretends to help is bulls***.

 

The USA does MORE to help via charity and aid than ANY other nation -- probably MORE than all other nations combined.

 

But in the end, somethings gotta give.

 

And it's starting to break the bank.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Y2HH

[southsider2k5]

So the American people should bow down to the cartels and just pay for all the illegals that come here because of the cartels is the answer?

 

Not for nothing, but it's not our problem. And I don't mean to sound insensitive...but you know, it's a big world out there and a LOT of nations have problems. People are starving in China, Africa, and a number of other places, with little to no choice -- maybe we should bring them all here and save them, too. I realize they don't have the simple means of jumping a boarder, but the point is, we can't solve the entire worlds problems...any attempt to do so would destroy our own country, too.

 

I really wish it were like Star Trek, money didn't exist, and everyone lived in the perfect world.

 

But again, a lot of people in this world don't have a choice, we are blessed to have been born here, and there are plenty of other nations where you could feel blessed to be born. And then there are the many that you're born into a nightmare. The US isn't going to solve the worlds problems...maybe someday, but not in our lifetimes.

 

The money is spread thinner and thinner. The world is overpopulated and there will always be problems. But heaving those problems onto the backs of the American people while the rest of the world turns the other way and pretends to help is bulls***.

 

The USA does MORE to help via charity and aid than ANY other nation -- probably MORE than all other nations combined.

 

But in the end, somethings gotta give.

 

And it's starting to break the bank.

 

It amazes me that everyone can see Greece happening right before our eyes, but no one else seems to think that somehow we should be more careful now. At the end of the day this country does have some responsibility to the people who are already here.

[BigSqwert]

^^And what would you do if that was your family? (Y2HH)

 

"Sorry honey. We'll have to stay here and get killed my the drug cartel. I wouldn't want to impose on anyone by moving 100 miles north."

Edited May 11, 2010 by BigSqwert

[NorthSideSox72]

^^And what would you do if that was your family? (Y2HH)

 

"Sorry honey. We'll have to stay here and get killed my the drug cartel. I wouldn't want to impose on anyone by moving 100 miles north."

I am sure Y2HH would do the same thing you would do, and that anyone else would do. He wasn't saying otherwise. What he's saying - and I agree - is that there are far more problems like that in the world than can be solved by the US simply being OK with everyone flooding in. We have to bite off chunks at a time, and when the flood gets too fast in some area (MEX>US in this case), you have to slow it down for your own good. You don't do that, you can't help anyone anymore, not even your own citizens.

 

Those situations are awful, I wouldn't wish it on anyone, and it should make us think twice about making these illegal aliens out to be some sort of monsters. They are not, at all. They should be treated humanely. But they are still here illegally, they still cost the country money, and they still need to be addressed for their effect on the country.

 

[Y2HH]

^^And what would you do if that was your family? (Y2HH)

 

"Sorry honey. We'll have to stay here and get killed my the drug cartel. I wouldn't want to impose on anyone by moving 100 miles north."

 

I'm not pretending to say it's fair, or even good. But I'm trying to be realistic. We don't have the means to take all the suffering in this world and save them. I really wish we did. But we don't. And you need to start being realistic about that, which I know is against what your heart is telling you. Believe me, it's against what mine tells me. But in the end, it's just not there...it's impossible.

 

You can bring them all here, and for a few months their suffering would end...and then everyone living here would be suffering just as much.

 

It's bulls*** that the cartels have such a stranglehold on that country, it's bulls*** that murders and rapists exist...and it's bulls*** that the unjust in this world seem to be getting a free pass while the innocent suffer. But again, it's not the problem of the American people, no matter how much you want it to be.

 

It's unfair.

 

But it is.

[GoSox05]

I'm not pretending to say it's fair, or even good. But I'm trying to be realistic. We don't have the means to take all the suffering in this world and save them. I really wish we did. But we don't. And you need to start being realistic about that, which I know is against what your heart is telling you. Believe me, it's against what mine tells me. But in the end, it's just not there...it's impossible.

 

You can bring them all here, and for a few months their suffering would end...and then everyone living here would be suffering just as much.

 

It's bulls*** that the cartels have such a stranglehold on that country, it's bulls*** that murders and rapists exist...and it's bulls*** that the unjust in this world seem to be getting a free pass while the innocent suffer. But again, it's not the problem of the American people, no matter how much you want it to be.

 

It's unfair.

 

But it is.

 

It's kind of our problem. We are the ones doing all the drugs.

 

 

[Balta1701]

I'm not pretending to say it's fair, or even good. But I'm trying to be realistic. We don't have the means to take all the suffering in this world and save them. I really wish we did. But we don't. And you need to start being realistic about that, which I know is against what your heart is telling you. Believe me, it's against what mine tells me. But in the end, it's just not there...it's impossible.

 

You can bring them all here, and for a few months their suffering would end...and then everyone living here would be suffering just as much.

 

It's bulls*** that the cartels have such a stranglehold on that country, it's bulls*** that murders and rapists exist...and it's bulls*** that the unjust in this world seem to be getting a free pass while the innocent suffer. But again, it's not the problem of the American people, no matter how much you want it to be.

 

It's unfair.

 

But it is.

So what would you have us do with the person who tries to escape it with his or her family?

 

Would you have us lock them up permanently? If you've got a cartel hunting you, do you really think that's a bad option? If you drive them to the border and drop them off, aren't they just going to come right back across?

[Y2HH]

It's kind of our problem. We are the ones doing all the drugs.

 

Not quite. I'm sure the American people aren't helping when they support that market, nor any black market...but that's NOT my problem.

 

Don't over simplify such an issue with something like this. It's far more complicated.

[Y2HH]

So what would you have us do with the person who tries to escape it with his or her family?

 

Would you have us lock them up permanently? If you've got a cartel hunting you, do you really think that's a bad option? If you drive them to the border and drop them off, aren't they just going to come right back across?

 

I'm not pretending to have the answers or know what to do with them. But I do know that we cannot ignore it, and continue to let illegals swarm in here. We simply CANNOT support that. You can pretend we can, but we can't, wake up and realize that. And if we let it go on, you'll soon be suffering, too. Then what, we should all run up to Canada? No.

 

f*** that. This MY home. My father immigrated here -- LEGALLY -- from a situation FAR WORSE, so let's not pretend it can't be done. We make excuses, we set bars lower, we tolerate the intolerable, and all in the name of good...but in the end, it's going to crush us...we simply cannot support this. Stop pretending we can.

[Balta1701]

I'm not pretending to have the answers or know what to do with them. But I do know that we cannot ignore it, and continue to let illegals swarm in here. We simply CANNOT support that. You can pretend we can, but we can't, wake up and realize that. And if we let it go on, you'll soon be suffering, too. Then what, we should all run up to Canada? No.

 

f*** that. This MY home. My father immigrated here -- LEGALLY -- from a situation FAR WORSE, so let's not pretend it can't be done. We make excuses, we set bars lower, we tolerate the intolerable, and all in the name of good...but in the end, it's going to crush us...we simply cannot support this. Stop pretending we can.

It's real easy to shout platitudes when you don't have a reasonable solution to the problem to offer.

[Y2HH]

It's real easy to shout platitudes when you don't have a reasonable solution to the problem to offer.

 

Just as it's easy to ignore the problem and let it carry on because you don't have a reasonable solution, either.

 

Two way street with this one, friendo.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Y2HH

[Controlled Chaos]

^^And what would you do if that was your family? (Y2HH)

 

"Sorry honey. We'll have to stay here and get killed my the drug cartel. I wouldn't want to impose on anyone by moving 100 miles north."

You're missing another alternative...moving 100 miles south. It is a s***ty situation no doubt, but the options weren't get killed or sneak into the US illegally.

[southsider2k5]

It's real easy to shout platitudes when you don't have a reasonable solution to the problem to offer.

 

So how many people have you taken in from these kind of situations?

[BigSqwert]

You're missing another alternative...moving 100 miles south. It is a s***ty situation no doubt, but the options weren't get killed or sneak into the US illegally.

You honestly can tell me if you were in that family's shoes you'd go south?