GT: SEA @ CWS, 4/25, 1:05pm

[scenario]

So because it is not customarily done, we should not consider doing it?

 

I agree with doing things a certain way because they make sense. I do not agree with staying with custom sheerly because it has been custom in the past. If the custom is silly, which, when it comes to the closer position in baseball, it certainly is - there is absolutely no logic behind the closer's position in baseball - then you change it in favor of doing the the thing that allows you the best chance to succeed.

 

Interesting theoretical argument.

 

It would be alot more compelling, of course, if Jenks hadn't struck out the final batter on 3 pitches to end the game.

Edited April 26, 2010 by scenario

[lostfan]

Because when you have the most dominating left hander in baseball in your bullpen, you use him to blow away a 40 year old left handed hitter. This was the same guy Jenks walked yesterday.

 

It was a good thing Ozzie went to him and said, no junk, just fastballs. If he didn't, we might be fuming at the fact that we lost this game.

If we can't rely on Bobby Jenks to retire a 40 year old Ken Griffey Jr. and need help from a specialist, then we're basically f***ed anyway and it doesn't matter.

[lostfan]

So because it is not customarily done, we should not consider doing it?

 

I agree with doing things a certain way because they make sense. I do not agree with staying with custom sheerly because it has been custom in the past. If the custom is silly, which, when it comes to the closer position in baseball, it certainly is - there is absolutely no logic behind the closer's position in baseball - then you change it in favor of doing the the thing that allows you the best chance to succeed.

It has nothing to do with "custom" or the logic of a closer (and I'm not a fan of that custom either, FWIW), if Bobby Jenks is supposed to be the best reliever in the bullpen - leaving aside whether he actually is for a moment - then you should have a reasonable expectation that he can get an old, broken down, way past his prime hitter out whether he is a lefty or not.

[iamshack]

If we can't rely on Bobby Jenks to retire a 40 year old Ken Griffey Jr. and need help from a specialist, then we're basically f***ed anyway and it doesn't matter.

This is true over the long haul...however, just because he's struggling a bit now and you might pull him doesn't mean he'll be struggling in 2 months and you have to pull him then.

 

I understand what you guys are all saying, I'm just worried more about the overall mental health of the team and the fans than just Bobby right now. We needed to hold on to this win, and thank goodness we did. I'm glad the move worked, as you're right, we are going to need Bobby and we are going to need him to be confident.

[iamshack]

It has nothing to do with "custom" or the logic of a closer (and I'm not a fan of that custom either, FWIW), if Bobby Jenks is supposed to be the best reliever in the bullpen - leaving aside whether he actually is for a moment - then you should have a reasonable expectation that he can get an old, broken down, way past his prime hitter out whether he is a lefty or not.

Oh there was absolutely a reasonable expectation.

 

The question is whether or not it was worth it to step up the chances of success marginally for the overall well-being of the team, as opposed to any ill-effects it may have had on Bobby and accepting a slightly lesser chance of success in that situation.

[chw42]

If we can't rely on Bobby Jenks to retire a 40 year old Ken Griffey Jr. and need help from a specialist, then we're basically f***ed anyway and it doesn't matter.

 

Well, it happened yesterday didn't it?

 

Bobby's grown a fascination for junk pitches. Once he gets two outs, he starts messing around. Just throw your good fastball with your curve and close the game out, seriously. He's been pretty good about getting the first two outs in almost all his save situations. But when it comes to that third out, he just can't get it sometimes.

Edited April 26, 2010 by chw42

[southsider2k5]

Well, it happened yesterday didn't it?

 

Bobby's grown a fascination for junk pitches. Once he gets two outs, he starts messing around. Just throw your good fastball with your curve and close the game out, seriously. He's been pretty good about getting the first two outs in almost all his save situations. But when it comes to that third out, he just can't get it sometimes.

 

Except yesterday wasn't a save situation...

[iamshack]

Except yesterday wasn't a save situation...

What the hell does it matter?

 

Is it not more important for guys to get outs in close and late situations than whether or not the situation is termed a certain way or counts statistically a certain way?

[lostfan]

Well, it happened yesterday didn't it?

 

Bobby's grown a fascination for junk pitches. Once he gets two outs, he starts messing around. Just throw your good fastball with your curve and close the game out, seriously. He's been pretty good about getting the first two outs in almost all his save situations. But when it comes to that third out, he just can't get it sometimes.

It's going to happen now and again, didn't Thornton blow a game not too long ago himself? Sure you play to the odds and all, but not micromanaging for individual batters in a game in April in insignificant matchups. I guess if this game was in September, and Joe Mauer was on deck, I'd see a better reason for doing it, but not here. You just have to trust that more often than not Bobby is going to be able to do it.

[southsider2k5]

What the hell does it matter?

Is it not more important for guys to get outs in close and late situations than whether or not the situation is termed a certain way or counts statistically a certain way?

 

Great question.

 

Jenks closed the game and got the save, yet here everyone is questioning it and parsing it apart.

 

What the hell does it matter?

[chw42]

Except yesterday wasn't a save situation...

 

So...?

 

If Bobby can only pitch in save situations, then there's something wrong with him.

[southsider2k5]

So...?

 

If Bobby can only pitch in save situations, then there's something wrong with him.

 

So everything you mentioned wasn't true.

 

It wasn't a save situation. Jenks didn't throw junk. Jenks didn't blow the game.

[chw42]

Great question.

 

Jenks closed the game and got the save, yet here everyone is questioning it and parsing it apart.

 

What the hell does it matter?

 

This is like arguing about Brad Lidge and his 41/41 save year in 08. It's clear that guys like Rivera had better years than Lidge, who clearly got bigger leads and allowed far more runners on base, but got away with it.

 

The thing some of us are trying to say is that as a reliever, you can't be putting people on base then working around it all the time. I don't remember the last time Bobby had a 1-2-3 inning. He's playing with fire and it burned him yesterday and it will burn him down the road.

 

 

[iamshack]

Great question.

 

Jenks closed the game and got the save, yet here everyone is questioning it and parsing it apart.

 

What the hell does it matter?

So now it is only appropriate to discuss something when something actually does go wrong as opposed to when it just almost goes wrong?

[southsider2k5]

This is like arguing about Brad Lidge and his 41/41 save year in 08. It's clear that guys like Rivera had better years than Lidge, who clearly got bigger leads and allowed far more runners on base, but got away with it.

 

The thing some of us are trying to say is that as a reliever, you can't be putting people on base then working around it all the time. I don't remember the last time Bobby had a 1-2-3 inning. He's playing with fire and it burned him yesterday and it will burn him down the road.

 

He did exactly what you said he should do, and you are still b****ing about it. Really?

[southsider2k5]

So now it is only appropriate to discuss something when something actually does go wrong as opposed to when it just almost goes wrong?

 

Apparently only when you aren't the one being questioned.

[chw42]

It's going to happen now and again, didn't Thornton blow a game not too long ago himself? Sure you play to the odds and all, but not micromanaging for individual batters in a game in April in insignificant matchups. I guess if this game was in September, and Joe Mauer was on deck, I'd see a better reason for doing it, but not here. You just have to trust that more often than not Bobby is going to be able to do it.

 

This win counts the same as that win in September. There's no difference other than the mindset that you HAVE to win in September and right now it's only April. But in the end, the standings aren't going to be based on games won in September.

[chw42]

He did exactly what you said he should do, and you are still b****ing about it. Really?

 

I'm pretty sure a lot of fans are worried about Jenks, just because he got a 40 year old out and had to be told not to throw junk doesn't mean he should get a free pass and we should all think Bobby is fine again.

 

It's not b****ing, it's worrying about him and his possible failures in the future due to his tendency to allow a lot of base runners.

[fathom]

Even though we all probably wanted to see Thornton in to face Griffey Jr., Ozzie made the same move every other manager would at this point in the season. If he pulled Jenks there, you run the risk of losing him mentally for a while. If Jenks blows 4-5 saves in a short span, then maybe Ozzie would have pulled him.

[lostfan]

This win counts the same as that win in September. There's no difference other than the mindset that you HAVE to win in September and right now it's only April. But in the end, the standings aren't going to be based on games won in September.

You don't want to have to use a reliever unless you need to usually, Thornton can't be coming in every game because he's the only guy that we trust. Would you bring in a SP in a long relief situation in April? Would you do it in September when your division is down to the wire?

[iamshack]

Apparently only when you aren't the one being questioned.

I'm not even sure what this means.

 

I am all for staying calm and looking at the big picture, but that doesn't mean that we shouldn't reasonably and intelligently analyze game situations.

[lostfan]

I'm pretty sure a lot of fans are worried about Jenks, just because he got a 40 year old out and had to be told not to throw junk doesn't mean he should get a free pass and we should all think Bobby is fine again.

 

It's not b****ing, it's worrying about him and his possible failures in the future due to his tendency to allow a lot of base runners.

Of course Bobby shouldn't be getting a free pass, I don't think anybody is going to disagree with you there.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm pretty sure a lot of fans are worried about Jenks, just because he got a 40 year old out and had to be told not to throw junk doesn't mean he should get a free pass and we should all think Bobby is fine again.

 

It's not b****ing, it's worrying about him and his possible failures in the future due to his tendency to allow a lot of base runners.

 

I agree 100%. Bobby won't make it to June if he's sporting a 1.75 WHIP. People need to look at the bigger picture.

[lostfan]

We've been complaining about Bobby doing this for probably more than a year now, it's pretty understood that he needs to get his s*** together here.

[iamshack]

Even though we all probably wanted to see Thornton in to face Griffey Jr., Ozzie made the same move every other manager would at this point in the season. If he pulled Jenks there, you run the risk of losing him mentally for a while. If Jenks blows 4-5 saves in a short span, then maybe Ozzie would have pulled him.

I absolutely see this point.

 

However, I don't really care what every other manager would do. And I'm not upset with Ozzie for handling the situation in the manner in which he did. But he did have Matt up and ready, for what situation other than the one that presented itself, I am not really sure. If he's already up and warm, I don't think throwing the few pitches it probably would have taken him to retire Griffey really adds any more stress to his arm.

 

As for Bobby and his mental state, yeah, maybe he loses a bit of his mojo. But maybe he needs to. I don't know. But I'm more concerned about the mojo of the entire team rather than the mojo of one guy right now.