perfect article to generate debate about bullpens/Ozzie vs. Twins'

[caulfield12]

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=AmXQ...relievers042610

 

 

I thought this was an excellent article, and was going to stick it into MLB Catch-all, but then had a second thought.

 

Especially since one of the biggest complaints about Guillen by many Sox fans is his use of the bullpen...

 

So the question is this:

 

1) How does Ozzie differ in any way from how the Twins manage their pens with Gardenhire?

 

2) Is there anything in our minor league development that has led to a dearth of quality bullpen arms, compared to other teams in the division?

 

(I'm thinking of names like Wasserman, Sean Tracey, etc., we just haven't incubated many relief arms that had success for us....we have, on the other hand, developed a plethora of arms who ended up succeeding with other teams. The one reliever we've taken high, Royce Ring, was a complete bust. Poreda and Richard were considered by most scouts to be bullpen arms as well...so I guess Richard might be our one true success story?)

 

3) The clamor (I was one of them) for Jenks to be pulled for Thornton against KGJr. led ultimately to another question, how does yanking Jenks out of games where hasn't yet blown the save affect his psyche? How well defined is our pen right now? What are the roles? Should Ozzie be clearer, or is that impossible to provide because of all the "X" factors with the pen?

 

Do you do like the Tigers and use Zumaya in the 6th, 7th and 8th in high leverage situations? Would Zumaya be better off if he knew he was the man for the 8th and would never pitch before that inning?

 

Jenks=closer

Thornton=LH set-up, capable of closing in an inning with 2/3 lefties coming up

RH set-up for 8th=who will it be, Putz/Santos or Pena??? Does it matter if Ozzie uses Putz in the role one game and Santos the next?

Also, what is Linebrink's role as he continues to show signs of progress?

 

Basically, we have Putz/Santos as TIER 1 and Pena(5)/Liney(6) as TIER 2 of the set-up guys to go with THORNTON.

 

Also, should we have a defined long man (Hudson incubated like Buehrle in 2000 for an eventual starting role) or just go with Pena/Liney/Williams in all of those situations? Is it wise to burn Linebrink's arm on blowouts if want to increase his value to other teams? Is it fair to put Pena in this role when he's really pitched excellently? How much longer can we go with Williams? Does KW make a move to acquire someone like a Carrasco or promote Torres/Elarton, etc.? How long will Threets be out? Does he have to pick a 2nd lefty? Does KW find another veteran in the Jeff Nelson mold or promote someone internally like a Clevelan Santeliz?

 

Should we use Santos like the Tigers use Zumaya, or keep him strictly for the 7th and 8th when we're leading by 1-3 runs? Is he ready for that? Will he go all Aardsma on us when he suffers his first failures in pressure situations?

 

4) What are your specific issues with Ozzie's use of the pen? What does he do differently from the likes of "intellectual" managers like LaRussa/Scioscia/Maddon cited in the article?

 

YES, I know some will think it's a PRO TWINS article. FINE. The topic is an interesting one, hopefully a good discussion can come out of it?

Edited April 27, 2010 by caulfield12

[BigSqwert]

All I know is Williams has to go. He is utterly worthless. I don't care which arm he throws with. He could throw with his left foot for all I care.

[ThunderBolt]

You have good thoughts, but can we keep these exercises a little more concise, Caufield? I feel like I have to take notes and do homework.

[Balta1701]

All I know is Williams has to go. He is utterly worthless. I don't care which arm he throws with. He could throw with his left foot for all I care.

Lefties have a .734 OPS against him this year (and not because they're hitting the ball, mainly because of a couple walks) and had a .549 OPS against him last year.

 

It's not his fault if he's there to get LHP out and he does that but you insist on having him face RHP.

[Jordan4life_2007]

You have good thoughts, but can we keep these exercises a little more concise, Caufield? I feel like I have to take notes and do homework.

 

I can rarely get through a Caulfield post without saying "f*** it. I don't feel like reading anymore."

Edited April 27, 2010 by Jordan4life

[LittleHurt05]

Lefties have a .734 OPS against him this year (and not because they're hitting the ball, mainly because of a couple walks) and had a .549 OPS against him last year.

 

It's not his fault if he's there to get LHP out and he does that but you insist on having him face RHP.

 

12 walks in 9.1 IP is inexcusable whoever you are pitching to. Five of those are vs. LHB too, including the great 4- pitch bases loaded debacle vs. Adam Lind.

[southsider2k5]

12 walks in 9.1 IP is inexcusable whoever you are pitching to. Five of those are vs. LHB too, including the great 4- pitch bases loaded debacle vs. Adam Lind.

 

That's my #1 problem with him. Plus I feel like he has benefited by people cleaning up his messes, all though I don't have the numbers to back that up. Williams just strikes me as DJ Carrasco... Fine with no pressure, melts when he gets in a tough situation.

[Balta1701]

Fine with no pressure, melts when he gets in a tough situation.

Because in a tough situation, any manager worth his salt is going to send up a RH hitter.

[caulfield12]

I can rarely get through a Caulfield post without saying "f*** it. I don't feel like reading anymore."

 

 

Isn't there some type of ignore feature available to ease up the great burden I am causing you?

 

If I really cause you that much duress, I'm sure you could work out something with the mods where all my posts would be blacked out like I'm giving away a key plot point to a new blockbuster movie in the FILMS THREAD.

 

Sound cool to you? That would be better than sniping back and forth with you about how I post in 25% of the threads.

Edited April 27, 2010 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Because in a tough situation, any manager worth his salt is going to send up a RH hitter.

 

 

Do you think we'd all feel differently if Williams was say a 23 year old rookie (let's say his last name was Wasserman) versus a 30+ journeyman/veteran pitcher who has experience in more than half the minor league and semi-pro systems in the world?

[Balta1701]

Do you think we'd all feel differently if Williams was say a 23 year old rookie (let's say his last name was Wasserman) versus a 30+ journeyman/veteran pitcher who has experience in more than half the minor league and semi-pro systems in the world?

There is a time and a place for a LOOGY. You just can't crucify him if your manager forces him to go up against RHP.

 

Wasserman is a ROOGY. That's a bit of a different beast; lefties killed him. 1.360 OPS against him for lefties in 2007, .430 for righties.

 

A ROOGY is a bit of an odd beast for a bullpen to carry, because usually teams set themselves up more to be able to put a LH pinch hitter in to face a RH reliever since most bullpens are very, very RH heavy. Either that or they've already dispersed lefties throughout their order. Even with that, I wouldn't have had a problem keeping Wasserman in the pen if he was effective at his job.

 

Oh, and Wasserman in particular lost it because in 2008, he gave up a nearly .900 OPS to Righties. That made him a Rohgy (righty one hit guy, guy who comes in entirely to give up a hit).

[caulfield12]

Good points Balta, although I wasn't being super serious about it.

 

I do feel we need a change-of-pace guy to offset the FB dominance....a Neshek, Takatsu frisbee, Arnie Munoz rainbow curve, some dude on the Reds who used to average about 79-83 on his FB a couple of years ago out of the pen, Chad Bradford, type. Charlie Haeger? The Japanese girl who just signed recently, Wakefield has worked with her diligently on perfecting a knuckleball?

 

There's another ex-Sox name for our other thread. Chad Bradford, the monster with the A's version of 5-7 years ago. (Not the Seattle 2000 ALCD version).

Edited April 27, 2010 by caulfield12

[Jordan4life_2007]

Isn't there some type of ignore feature available to ease up the great burden I am causing you?

 

If I really cause you that much duress, I'm sure you could work out something with the mods where all my posts would be blacked out like I'm giving away a key plot point to a new blockbuster movie in the FILMS THREAD.

 

Sound cool to you? That would be better than sniping back and forth with you about how I post in 25% of the threads.

 

I was half joking. But your posts are REALLY LONG. But I'll keep quiet about it from now on. It's really not that big a deal.

[SI1020]

I can rarely get through a Caulfield post without saying "f*** it. I don't feel like reading anymore."

Has reading and thinking become that much of a chore?

 

[kitekrazy]

Great article even tho' I didn't read the whole thing. It's not easy in MLB to have a great pen. They are never consistent.

[southsider2k5]

Has reading and thinking become that much of a chore?