The Teahen's D At Third thread

[chw42]

Do the Sox sometimes overvalue guys who do well against the Sox?

Wasn't Teahen a Sox killer? Did that get KW and Oz salivating? He's nothing too special IMO.

 

Maybe. After all, it takes away the damage he does against you. I bet Buehrle's happy he no longer has to face Teahen. But at the same time, he might not be so happy that he's our 3B.

[fathom]

Maybe. After all, it takes away the damage he does against you. I bet Buehrle's happy he no longer has to face Teahen. But at the same time, he might not be so happy that he's our 3B.

 

The Jeff Blauser effect

[Dick Allen]

I really don't know why anyone would have to look at UZR to determine what kind of 3B Teahen is defensively. Its pretty obvious.

[MattZakrowski]

Yup. Teahen's UZR, +/- could look radically different a couple weeks from now. I like the new defensive metrics. But a lot of people have no idea how to utilize them.

 

Agreed, but even when used properly, Teahen's UZR150 for his career is -12.8. That's over 384 games from 2005-now, enough time to make it clear that he's mediocre at 3B with the glove.

[GREEDY]

Yup. Teahen's UZR, +/- could look radically different a couple weeks from now. I like the new defensive metrics. But a lot of people have no idea how to utilize them.

 

Your reply is neither correct or appreciated.

 

Yes, we are using small sample size, but today's plus minus score is 100% accurate based on his play thus far this season.

 

You don't need to see someone play a full season to judge how someone has played in 25 games.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Agreed, but even when used properly, Teahen's UZR150 for his career is -12.8. That's over 384 games from 2005-now, enough time to make it clear that he's mediocre at 3B with the glove.

 

And before this year he had never gotten a chance to settle in at one position. We've never seen him play ONLY third for a FULL year. Not everybody can move around all over the place and provide an above average glove. Teahen himself before the season said as much.

 

Your reply is neither correct or appreciated.

 

Yes, we are using small sample size, but today's plus minus score is 100% accurate based on his play thus far this season.

 

You don't need to see someone play a full season to judge how someone has played in 25 games.

 

You want a cookie? Fine. For the first 21 games (19 starts) in his first season playing strictly one position, Teahen has not played a good 3B. Much more data will be required before any legitimate conclusion of his overall defense can be made. That's much more important to me than a 19 game sample size.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Thad Bosley]

This man has a body of work from which to judge. He's played five full seasons in the big leagues, and as far as I can tell, he's performed at below-average in nearly every facet of his game. He came to us with a reputation as being a poor defender, as evidenced by the fact that the Royals bounced him around from position to position trying to find one that he might at least be passable at. They failed in that endeavor. And in his five seasons, he's yet to eclipse either 20 home runs or 70 RBIs, hardly an impressive fact when talking about a corner infielder. What he has been able to do, though, is strike out at an alarming rate over the years. So based on all of that, his performance thus far has not been a surprise to me in the least, but sadly, what I expected. And what's even sadder is the fact we're tied into this guy for the next three years. Oy!

[fathom]

This man has a body of work from which to judge. He's played five full seasons in the big leagues, and as far as I can tell, he's performed at below-average in nearly every facet of his game. He came to us with a reputation as being a poor defender, as evidenced by the fact that the Royals bounced him around from position to position trying to find one that he might at least be passable at. They failed in that endeavor. And in his five seasons, he's yet to eclipse either 20 home runs or 70 RBIs, hardly an impressive fact when talking about a corner infielder. What he has been able to do, though, is strike out at an alarming rate over the years. So based on all of that, his performance thus far has not been a surprise to me in the least, but sadly, what I expected. And what's even sadder is the fact we're tied into this guy for the next three years. Oy!

 

Phenomenal post...Teahen would be better being a utility guy off the bench for a team like the Yankees.

[Dick Allen]

And before this year he had never gotten a chance to settle in at one position. We've never seen him play ONLY third for a FULL year. Not everybody can move around all over the place and provide an above average glove. Teahen himself before the season said as much.

 

 

 

You want a cookie? Fine. For the first 21 games (19 starts) in his first season playing strictly one position, Teahen has not played a good 3B. Much more data will be required before any legitimate conclusion of his overall defense can be made. That's much more important to me than a 19 game sample size.

Excuses are for people who fail. Obviously Teahen is full of excuses. Exactly when do we see him taking off as a great defensive thirdbaseman? He played a lot of 3B last year. Played it all of spring training, and a month into the season and he's still terrible. When does he become at least adequate? When his contract runs out? He's played plenty of 3B in his career for everyone to know he's not very good at it. Sort of like why the Sox don't put Paulie at SS. There is no sample size to judge, but you know he wouldn't be good there.

Edited May 3, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Leonard Zelig]

Excuses are for people who fail. Obviously Teahen is full of excuses. Exactly when do we see him taking off as a great defensive thirdbaseman? He played a lot of 3B last year. Played it all of spring training, and a month into the season and he's still terrible. When does he become at least adequate? When his contract runs out? He's played plenty of 3B in his career for everyone to know he's not very good at it. Sort of like why the Sox don't put Paulie at SS. There is no sample size to judge, but you know he wouldn't be good there.

 

Who ever said that he would be great at 3B?

[NorthSideSox72]

He looks really awkward out there, with the glove and the footwork. He is able to make up for some of that with a plus arm, but not all of it.

 

If he calms down a bit out there and gets some rhythm going, he'll be better, but still no better than average at the position. Probably below average.

 

[kitekrazy]

Well he did come from an organization that has a history of losing. Then that organization is willing to part with him. Of course this proves again that defense is never a priority with this organization.

[caulfield12]

I'll beat the Uribe horse dead into the ground again...or Orlando Hudson. Or both.

 

At any rate, that ship's sailed.

 

I do know one thing...he's really hesitant down there to make reads and commitments, and he ends up putting himself in a bad position, letting numerous balls "play him" instead of the other way around. Not to mention that, being "in between" as a fielder works the same as hitting, with the same negative consequences. You either come in too quickly and misplay the ball or hop or get off balance, or you're back on your heels making wild flat-footed throws and pressuring your 1B. It also seems he lacks range and first step "range explosiveness" (Crede had it despite ZERO actual 40-50 yard dash speed) to his right or left. He also plays a lot of balls off to the side, which only works for Juan Uribe. The arm is a nice TOOL, but it's like going to work as a handyman with a hammer and no nails.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Excuses are for people who fail. Obviously Teahen is full of excuses. Exactly when do we see him taking off as a great defensive thirdbaseman? He played a lot of 3B last year. Played it all of spring training, and a month into the season and he's still terrible. When does he become at least adequate? When his contract runs out? He's played plenty of 3B in his career for everyone to know he's not very good at it. Sort of like why the Sox don't put Paulie at SS. There is no sample size to judge, but you know he wouldn't be good there.

 

The Konerko analogy is terrible. And nobody said he could be Evan Longoria over there. I don't think a guy saying that the opportunity to play one position full-time for the first time in his career should only help him is making excuses for past performance. But that's just me.

[MattZakrowski]

And before this year he had never gotten a chance to settle in at one position. We've never seen him play ONLY third for a FULL year. Not everybody can move around all over the place and provide an above average glove. Teahen himself before the season said as much.

 

In 2005 and 2006 he played only 3rd. That's 237 uninterrupted games. And as for saying so himself, what's he supposed to say, "No, I just suck, now can I have my contract extension?"

Edited May 3, 2010 by MattZakrowski

[Jordan4life_2007]

In 2005 and 2006 he played only 3rd. That's 237 uninterrupted games. And as for saying so himself, what's he supposed to say, "No, I just suck, now can I have my contract extension?"

 

It's not out of the realm of possibility that a guy could improve at a position over time, especially 4-5 years time. And the Sox brass also believed that with the opportunity to focus on one position that he could improve there. Nothing earth shattering about that line of thinking.

[Thad Bosley]

Phenomenal post...Teahen would be better being a utility guy off the bench for a team like the Yankees.

Bingo! I think that is ultimate answer with Teahen - utility guy off the bench, and not just necessarily for the Yankees. I don't think he should be a starter at the Major League level, period. He is below average offensively and defensively and has proven so pretty much throughout his entire career.

 

The one quality he does bring to the table, though, is versatility. And the last time I checked, versatility was an attribute considered to be quite valuable for someone coming off of the bench. In Teahen's case, you can theoretically run him out to five positions on the playing field. And even though he isn't particularly good defensively at any one of those positions, in short stints that kind of versatility could come in quite handy for a manager over a long season. Additionally, as is the case with so many good bench players out there, they seem to hit better in limited action vs. having their weaknesses exposed as a full-time player. So to me, Teahen would be acceptable as a super sub, but as a regular player, I just don't think he cuts it - ESPECIALLY in a line-up that also frequently features the names Pierre, Vizquel, and Kotsay along with Teahen's.

[MattZakrowski]

It's not out of the realm of possibility that a guy could improve at a position over time, especially 4-5 years time. And the Sox brass also believed that with the opportunity to focus on one position that he could improve there. Nothing earth shattering about that line of thinking.

 

I'm not totally ruling it out, but he's 28, has been in the Majors for years now, and he's played a decent amount of games a 3rd. He doesn't show any great physical tools that suggest that his issues are rooted in lack of experience. He is what he is, a below average fielder who might be be a positive contributor at the plate.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm not totally ruling it out, but he's 28, has been in the Majors for years now, and he's played a decent amount of games a 3rd. He doesn't show any great physical tools that suggest that his issues are rooted in lack of experience. He is what he is, a below average fielder who might be be a positive contributor at the plate.

 

You could very well be right. Personally, I wanted to see him at 3B for a full season before I made any determination.

[Dick Allen]

Bingo! I think that is ultimate answer with Teahen - utility guy off the bench, and not just necessarily for the Yankees. I don't think he should be a starter at the Major League level, period. He is below average offensively and defensively and has proven so pretty much throughout his entire career.

 

The one quality he does bring to the table, though, is versatility. And the last time I checked, versatility was an attribute considered to be quite valuable for someone coming off of the bench. In Teahen's case, you can theoretically run him out to five positions on the playing field. And even though he isn't particularly good defensively at any one of those positions, in short stints that kind of versatility could come in quite handy for a manager over a long season. Additionally, as is the case with so many good bench players out there, they seem to hit better in limited action vs. having their weaknesses exposed as a full-time player. So to me, Teahen would be acceptable as a super sub, but as a regular player, I just don't think he cuts it - ESPECIALLY in a line-up that also frequently features the names Pierre, Vizquel, and Kotsay along with Teahen's.

This is true. How much better of a ballplayer is Mark Teahen than a guy like Geoff Blum? Is he 3 times the player? Blum has never made more than $1.5 million in a season. The White Sox inexplicably guaranteed Teahen $15 million.

[greg775]

Teahen is one of those guys available in fantasy leagues this time of year. He's a guy nobody can get excited about being a regular.

[Thad Bosley]

This is true. How much better of a ballplayer is Mark Teahen than a guy like Geoff Blum? Is he 3 times the player? Blum has never made more than $1.5 million in a season. The White Sox inexplicably guaranteed Teahen $15 million.

Well, I'm willing to extend such a discussion to say 'how much better of a ballplayer is Mark Teahen than a guy like....Jayson Nix'? Seriously! What does Teahen do that Nix can't do? He's not better defensively than Nix is at third. As bad as we might think Nix is at third, hey - is Teahen really better? I haven't seen any evidence that would convince me that he is. Teahen's defensive stats at third base to date in his career have been rather abysmal.

 

Meanwhile, offsensively, I would submit to you that over a 150+ games season (the number of seasons that Teahen has had the priviledge of playing with the Royals over the past five years), I think Nix would hit more than 20 homers and 70 RBIs in those seasons, while stealing upwards of 20-25 bases. Teahen has yet to meet those accomplishments. Yes, Nix would still strike out way more than we'd like, but I think his production would still be more productive than anything Teahen has accomplished over his past five years. I remind you: Teahen has yet to eclipse 20+ homers and/or 70+ RBIs in a season in his five full seasons in the big leagues. I think this is an issue where I'm only suggesting that Jayson Nix is a better player than the guy we've apparently we've handed third base over to for the next three years.

[Leonard Zelig]

He hits left handed much better than Nix does.

[ScottyDo]

Bingo! I think that is ultimate answer with Teahen - utility guy off the bench, and not just necessarily for the Yankees. I don't think he should be a starter at the Major League level, period. He is below average offensively and defensively and has proven so pretty much throughout his entire career.

 

The one quality he does bring to the table, though, is versatility. And the last time I checked, versatility was an attribute considered to be quite valuable for someone coming off of the bench. In Teahen's case, you can theoretically run him out to five positions on the playing field. And even though he isn't particularly good defensively at any one of those positions, in short stints that kind of versatility could come in quite handy for a manager over a long season. Additionally, as is the case with so many good bench players out there, they seem to hit better in limited action vs. having their weaknesses exposed as a full-time player. So to me, Teahen would be acceptable as a super sub, but as a regular player, I just don't think he cuts it - ESPECIALLY in a line-up that also frequently features the names Pierre, Vizquel, and Kotsay along with Teahen's.

Is he, now? I think people throw around the word "average" too much, possibly taking it to mean "what I find acceptable". Without getting into more advanced statistics, average is about a .750 OPS. Teahen's career OPS is .750. He's pretty much the poster boy for average offense, though, as has been noted before, he's played in Loserville his entire career.

 

I mean, clearly this is a lukewarm defense of the guy, but let's not mischaracterize him as a bum offensively.

[SouthsideDon48]

Teahen is one of those guys available in fantasy leagues this time of year. He's a guy nobody can get excited about being a regular.

And I even picked David Freese of the Cardinals instead of Teahen when I needed another 3rd baseman during the first week of the season. :-/