May Catch All White Sox Thread

[fathom]

I think the writing has been on the wall based upon my gut feelings from what I read/hear. I won't guarantee anything but I think Hahn will get his chance. It won't be KEnny getting fired or anything, he's a great GM, more that I think he is tired of the constant day to days of being a baseball GM, especially the way he handles being a GM.

 

Like I said, just my 2 cents.

 

And regarding Ozzie, the players started zoning him out last year so now that he has another year of more guys zoning him out, I think he'll end up going somewhere else. HE just doesn't have a style that leads to a long shelf life.

 

KW said a few weeks ago that it's getting close to the time for him to relinquish his position and relax more.

Edited May 28, 2010 by fathom

[witesoxfan]

Nick Swisher and Todd Ritchie are the two that come to mind right away.

 

I'd say 2 guys in 10 years is a pretty good track record, wouldn't you?

[ThunderBolt]

Nick Swisher and Todd Ritchie are the two that come to mind right away.

We did do our homework on Swish, we just took one bad grade and made it indicative of a larger sample size. YAY FOR METAPHORS. (and the word indicative!!!!)

[SoxAce]

Swisher actually was a Rick Hahn type move when you think about it. He is the definition of a saber player. A guy like Juan Pierre on the other hand, is known as a saber nightmare.

[BearSox]

I'd say 2 guys in 10 years is a pretty good track record, wouldn't you?

If we are going based on just that fact, sure.

 

But he's also rushed into moves, with the two most recent being trading Swisher for garbage. Also, trading a solid pitcher in Ely for the expensive Pierre (8 million is too much for him) before letting the market play itself out with Pods.

 

Then you have the fact he's held onto players way too long. Jenks should have been gone a couple years ago. We probably should have traded Dye in 07. Now look, we got nothing for Dye and are willing to ship Jenks to whichever team is willing to pay his salary.

 

Also, under KW we have consistently had one of the worst farm systems in baseball. Things have been a lot better after the past 2 years, but they should not excuse KW of sitting back idle while we consistently had s***ty drafts and terrible (and corrupt) scouting in Latin America. I think for a four year span we had horrible baseball players drafted with our first pick (Anderson, Fields, Broadway, McCulloch).

 

KW has been just as much miss as he has been hit, IMO. While he certainly isn't one of the worst GM's in baseball, he hasn't been great either. However, he is a good baseball mind and I'd have no problem with him becoming President or something along those lines. However, I strongly feel there is a need for change in GM spot.

[Balta1701]

We would have gotten nothing for Dye in 2007. The offer was Willy Mo Pena, and we couldn't even get the Red Sox to include a reliever.

[BearSox]

Swisher actually was a Rick Hahn type move when you think about it. He is the definition of a saber player. A guy like Juan Pierre on the other hand, is known as a saber nightmare.

Hahn most certainly has a better understanding of Sabermetrics than KW, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is a sabermetric disciple like Theo Epstein.

 

Hopefully he uses both sabermetrics and traditional scouting equally.

[fathom]

If you want to talk about rushing decisions, KW made almost all of his moves so early this offseason (Teahen/Jones/Vizquel/Kotsay), he put himself into a situation where he wasn't able to see how much the market was hurting players until it was basically too late with Damon.

[SoxAce]

Also, trading a solid pitcher in Ely for the expensive Pierre (8 million is too much for him) before letting the market play itself out with Pods.

 

Dodgers are paying for half of Pierre's contract FYI.

 

[Harry Chappas]

Dodgers are paying for half of Pierre's contract FYI.

 

2 years at $4M each after Dodger money which is why they had to give up Ely. That is the MO that I most dislike about KW. He gives up prospects in exchaange for cash he did this in the Thome deal and all of those 04/05 Everett and Alomar deals.

 

Also Ritchie was a Schueler deal I believe....I know KW was the GM but I thought Schuler pushed it through.

 

I love how the Sox GM never gets credit for a win but certainly gets blasted for a loss.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Jenks Heat

[southsider2k5]

I'd say 2 guys in 10 years is a pretty good track record, wouldn't you?

 

And one of those two was a trade engineered by the former GM, which has been well established publicly.

[southsider2k5]

You think Kenny doesn't understand it?

 

You know how dumb those Sanford guys are...

[Balta1701]

You know how dumb those Sanford guys are...

Yeah, they think the Appalachian Trail runs through Argentina. (/rimshot!)

[knightni]

Sanford? ... was there a Son involved?

[Balta1701]

You know, I hate reading things like this from writers I enjoy reading...because it just convinces me they have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to the Sox, and so why should I trust them about other teams?

The White Sox have a losing record. They had a losing record last year. They had a losing record in 2007. In 2008 they squeaked into the playoffs, and managed to win one game before the Rays knocked them out. Losing tends to put a strain on even the best of relationships. And can you blame Kenny Williams if he's tired of Ozzie Guillen's occasional shenanigans? Can you blame Guillen if he's tired of players who aren't good enough to win?

 

The White Sox have used only 26 players this season. Triple-A lifer Donny Lucy spent a month in the majors because backup catcher Ramon Castro was on the DL. But right now, the 25-man roster is exactly the roster that Kenny Williams presumably believed would be good enough to compete for a playoff spot.

 

It's not. Among the many holes in the roster are catcher (A.J. Pierzynski) and No. 5 starter (Freddy Garcia). Coincidentally, the White Sox' best Triple-A prospects at this moment are a catcher (Tyler Flowers) and a starting pitcher (Daniel Hudson). Ozzie Guillen might reasonably be wondering why he's managing a 20-27 team while Floyers and Hudson are wasting away in Charlotte, N.C.

 

Then again, Guillen's never shown any particular acumen regarding talent evaluation, and perhaps there's no bigger booster of Pierzynski and Garcia. And there's something to be said for patience, particularly with Pierzynski (who really can't be this bad unless he's hurt). But the White Sox are seven games out of first place already, and it's hard to make up seven games unless you've got most of your available talent on the roster and in the games. Right now, the White Sox don't.

Flowers and Hudson as assisted solutions to this team? Not buying it. Flowers has struggled, Hudson's just finding a grove, and Garcia isn't even the pitcher in the rotation with the worst numbers.

[witesoxfan]

If we are going based on just that fact, sure.

 

But he's also rushed into moves, with the two most recent being trading Swisher for garbage. Also, trading a solid pitcher in Ely for the expensive Pierre (8 million is too much for him) before letting the market play itself out with Pods.

 

Most legitimate scouting publications suggested that Ely didn't have the stuff to make it in the majors. If there is ever a question of whether someone's stuff is good enough, they immediately lose value. Beyond that, if his stuff really is mediocre but his control is good, then he's much better off in the NL where a pitcher can get away with that sort of thing. There's a reason Carlos Silva got absolutely destroyed in the AL and is pitching his ass off in the NL.

 

I don't like that he traded for Juan Pierre, but I'm not mad that he traded away Link and Ely. Both are mediocre prospects.

 

Then you have the fact he's held onto players way too long. Jenks should have been gone a couple years ago. We probably should have traded Dye in 07. Now look, we got nothing for Dye and are willing to ship Jenks to whichever team is willing to pay his salary.

 

The last time I looked, both Dye and Jenks were huge factors in the team winning the division in 2008. You are seriously telling me that you would have traded both of those two in 07, full-well knowing that the team was going to win the division in 2008? They didn't win, but any time you can get a team to the playoffs, you do it. Dye looked like s*** in the second half last year, but he was great in his 5 seasons with the White Sox.

 

Jenks is always debatable, so I'm not even going to touch that one.

 

Also, under KW we have consistently had one of the worst farm systems in baseball. Things have been a lot better after the past 2 years, but they should not excuse KW of sitting back idle while we consistently had s***ty drafts and terrible (and corrupt) scouting in Latin America. I think for a four year span we had horrible baseball players drafted with our first pick (Anderson, Fields, Broadway, McCulloch).

 

Williams' M.O. has always been to deal prospects for veterans while plugging a few guys in here or there. Those guys didn't look like they could cut it, even when most people felt they were legitimate prospects. But John Danks was never apart of the White Sox farm system, and he's been absolutely stellar with the Sox. Gavin Floyd was never a prospect in the minors because he'd used up his prospect "status" but, aside from this year, he's been a very good #3 starter for the Sox. Jake Peavy was picked up for a package of mediocrity. Alex Rios was picked up for free. I understand a few prospects failed, but some of that is development too...you can't tell me that neither Josh Fields or Brian Anderson were talented, but character or developmental issues came into play with them. The McCulloch pick was bad, but Broadway was a safe pick because they thought he'd reach the majors quickly. I recall him doing that, but they thought his velocity would increase a bit, and it never really did. Sometimes, that's just how luck goes.

 

Beyond that, the Sox are trying to fix their baseball academies within Latin America. I think if Williams knew that Wilder was corrupt as s***, he would have put an end to it sooner than he did.

 

KW has been just as much miss as he has been hit, IMO. While he certainly isn't one of the worst GM's in baseball, he hasn't been great either. However, he is a good baseball mind and I'd have no problem with him becoming President or something along those lines. However, I strongly feel there is a need for change in GM spot.

 

I can pretty much agree with this, though it's hard to quantify his, for lack of a better term, balls. It seems as though there is a gluttony of GMs who are afraid to make a big move due to fear of being wrong or getting burned or backlash from the fans or whatever, but Williams has never feared that. When he's felt that a move was necessary, he went out and made that move. In 2003-06, I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a GM that did a better job than Williams when it came to actually making fiscally responsible moves while also looking out for the present and future of the team and he really got unlucky to only get one division title out of those 3 years. As I recall, the Sox were the 2nd best team in the AL in the second half of the 2003 season, with only the Twins being better. And in 2006, I don't think anyone saw the Tigers going from a 72 win team to winning 94 games and the Wild Card. And, in 2004, they didn't have a huge amount of resources to go grab some players, but he found a bit of a gem in Uribe, went out and acquired Garcia, and got Jose Contreras for Esteban Loaiza, who'd been a monstrous disappointment for the Sox all season long.

 

At this point in time, if there is a changing of the guard, I wouldn't be opposed to it...that's about all I can say.

[Balta1701]

I don't like that he traded for Juan Pierre, but I'm not mad that he traded away Link and Ely. Both are mediocre prospects.

The Dodgers disagree.

[witesoxfan]

The Dodgers disagree.

 

Link hasn't been great in AAA (his peripherals aren't bad, but that's about all there is) and John Ely has made 6 career starts. They can disagree all they want, but you can't turn a dog into a wolf.

 

 

[Balta1701]

John Ely has made 6 career starts. They can disagree all they want, but you can't turn a dog into a wolf.

Hell, with the way he's started his career, I don't think there's any way they aren't thrilled. Worst case scenario I think it looks like he's behaving like a middle of the rotation guy who throws a lot of strikes and will be excellent at saving their bullpen. For several years at pre-arb prices, they're celebrating.

[BearSox]

Most legitimate scouting publications suggested that Ely didn't have the stuff to make it in the majors. If there is ever a question of whether someone's stuff is good enough, they immediately lose value. Beyond that, if his stuff really is mediocre but his control is good, then he's much better off in the NL where a pitcher can get away with that sort of thing. There's a reason Carlos Silva got absolutely destroyed in the AL and is pitching his ass off in the NL.

We f***ed up in our scouting then cause he's shown to have one of the better change ups in the league so far. And when you combine that with his incredible control, you are going to get a lot of quality starts, AL or NL.

[knightni]

They can disagree all they want, but you can't turn a dog into a wolf.

 

Jack London says "hi!"

[Kalapse]

Alex Rios now has the 2nd highest WAR in the majors, only Justin Morneau and his insane .494 wOBA is ahead of him.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Alex Rios now has the 2nd highest WAR in the majors, only Justin Morneau and his insane .494 wOBA is ahead of him.

 

I don't want to think about how much more unbearable this year (to this point) would be if not for Rios.

[chisoxfan09]

I don't want to think about how much more unbearable this year (to this point) would be if not for Rios.

With Rios WAR & UZR and his decent offensive output to date his 9.7 million dollar contract is not so bad for 2010. Even 12-12.12.5 million until 2014 may not be a bad deal.

[Kalapse]

With Rios WAR & UZR and his decent offensive output to date his 9.7 million dollar contract is not so bad for 2010. Even 12-12.12.5 million until 2014 may not be a bad deal.

You mean elite? Even with Vernon Wells out there Alex Rios has the highest wOBA of any CF in the game this season. If the Sox were any damn good he'd be in the AL MVP talks. At least so far this season that $9.7 is an absolute steal.