A. Gonzalez Update 5/3

[Balta1701]

Bench players with minimal upsides getting paid like starters hurts flexibility a lot more than paying a legitimate superstar market value.

Really?

 

In baseball, how many superstars paid market value does it take to win a world series?

 

How many teams are able to effectively pull that off? Boston, NY. Got any others?

 

The only other way to win a world series seems to be to find legitimately underpriced value, either through youth or through signing/trading for guys who outperform the salary you pay them.

[knightni]

Howard's contract shouldn't scare off anyone. That was a bad, bad deal for the Phillies who paid a price that nobody else could have afforded. I mean, the Yankees have Tex. The Angels have Kendry. The Dodgers can't buy anyone given the ownership situation. The Cubs are going to be paying off bad deals for the next several years. Who is left? The Red Sox? Why in the hell would they bid against themselves? They may spend a lot of money, but they're not stupid, because in an AGon-Howard-Prince-Pujols FA market, guess who ranks No. 4?

Some were speculating Seattle. Since Lee and Griffey will both be gone.

[Marty34]

BTW, just think about what Gonzalez does for this offense. He single-handedly changes everything because he essentially takes Pierre out and puts him on the bench where he belongs.

 

R Rios CF

R Beckham 2B

L Gonzalez 1B

R Konerko DH

R Jones RF

R Quentin LF

L Pierzynski C

R Ramirez SS

L Teahen 3B

 

Look at that lineup and, once AJ and Beckham get back to normal, suddenly the black hole of suck all but disappears.

 

Impressive lineup, but I'd probably go Q, Gonzalez, Konerko, Teahen, Jones, 3-7. As you said getting Pierre on the bench is key. It's the easiest solvable problem they have. If you think Quentin, Beckham, and to a lesser degree Ramirez and AJ are going to hit and Peavy and Floyd are front of the rotation pitchers you deal for Gonzalez.

 

[MiddleCoastBias]

I know Paulie seems to be a great guy for the organization (didn't he say he would take a pay cut if it would help the team?), but will he be the type of guy that will take a 'play cut' ie move to DH? I know Dye is adamantly against move to DH; is it likely that Paulie is ready to take on that role?

[Quin]

Impressive lineup, but I'd probably go Q, Gonzalez, Konerko, Teahen, Jones, 3-7. As you said getting Pierre on the bench is key. It's the easiest solvable problem they have. If you think Quentin, Beckham, and to a lesser degree Ramirez and AJ are going to hit and Peavy and Floyd are front of the rotation pitchers you deal for Gonzalez.

 

Yes, because we'd trade the cheap locked up guy and the Padres would want Peavy's contract back, which they shipped to us for peanuts to get rid of.

 

I know Paulie seems to be a great guy for the organization (didn't he say he would take a pay cut if it would help the team?), but will he be the type of guy that will take a 'play cut' ie move to DH? I know Dye is adamantly against move to DH; is it likely that Paulie is ready to take on that role?

 

Paulie would do it, because unlike JD, Paulie could still play the field once or twice a week and not suck.

[GreatScott82]

I know Paulie seems to be a great guy for the organization (didn't he say he would take a pay cut if it would help the team?), but will he be the type of guy that will take a 'play cut' ie move to DH? I know Dye is adamantly against move to DH; is it likely that Paulie is ready to take on that role?

I'd have to say yes. Frank Thomas made the move at around the same stage of his career as well. I'm going to go on a limb here and say KW DOES bring AGon over IF the Sox can get back into contention by the ASB. As of right now, the Sox are ALL IN on contending and there is no going back. You can't trade Peavy or Rios back. We are just underperforming right now. We have a 2 year window ('10, '11) to win and since AGon has those 2 years under contract for cheap, this is right up the Sox alley to make such a move.

[knightni]

Viciedo's going to have to hit better if the Sox want to get AGon.

[Dick Allen]

I'd be shocked if this isn't Paulie's last year in a White Sox uniform.

[fathom]

I'd be shocked if this isn't Paulie's last year in a White Sox uniform.

 

Absolutely, I could have sworn he said he knew it was time to move on during ST, but no one made a big deal out of it. He'll probably go play for Arizona or the Angels next season. As much as we all love PK, it might be for the best. Time for a complete overhaul of the clubhouse.

Edited May 2, 2010 by fathom

[Jordan4life_2007]

And of that list I see two bench players, a bunch of guys who are going to play better, one bad contract reliever, and a guy who will be in Charlotte by the end of the week. I'm counting on those two bench players playing like the bench players they are.

 

The crippling the payroll part: go look at their contracts and see what we're paying them for the next 2-3 years. Bench players with minimal upsides getting paid like starters hurts flexibility a lot more than paying a legitimate superstar market value. If the difference between being able to afford Gonzalez and not being able to afford Gonzalez is the amount we're paying Pierre in 2011 or Teahen in 2011 or 2012, and if those players are playing at a level where we could replace or nearly replace them at the league minimum, then we're in a bad spot.

 

Edit: And BTW, my point is about not continuing to do these things. Adrian would be cheap through 2011 so only Teahen's deal could potentially hurt us there, but the point was that those players I named (Pierre, Teahen, Linebrink) aren't movable, therefore they hurt flexibility much more than a talented player you could simply dump if you had to.

 

Sorry, you won't convince any rational human being that the 4 million being paid this year and next year to Pierre and the 3.7, 4.7 5.5 million being paid to Teahen through 2012 will in anyway keep the team from adding impact players. You're just fishing for something to complain about. And what's your definition of a "bench" player? If JP is hitting .300, hell, even .280, he's a lot better than a "bench" player. Teahen has been up and down to this point. Still way too early to deem him a "bench" player.

[fathom]

Sorry, you won't convince any rational human being that the 4 million being paid this year and next year to Pierre and the 3.7, 4.7 5.5 million being paid to Teahen through 2012 will in anyway keep the team from adding impact players. You're just fishing for something to complain about. And what's your definition of a "bench" player? If JP is hitting .300, hell, even .280, he's a lot better than a "bench" player. Teahen has been up and down to this point. Still way too early to deem him a "bench" player.

 

Well, our own GM said he had a trade made for Halladay, but we couldn't come up with the funds.

[iamshack]

Absolutely, I could have sworn he said he knew it was time to move on during ST, but no one made a big deal out of it. He'll probably go play for Arizona or the Angels next season. As much as we all love PK, it might be for the best. Time for a complete overhaul of the clubhouse.

He's making it a LOT bigger deal with his play thus far this season...

 

Leave it to a baseball player to have a career year in a contract year...

[fathom]

He's making it a LOT bigger deal with his play thus far this season...

 

Leave it to a baseball player to have a career year in a contract year...

 

We should have seen this coming, as PK was the guy that some of the posters on here with inside sources were claiming was content after winning the WS and just going through the motions.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, our own GM said he had a trade made for Halladay, but we couldn't come up with the funds.

 

Yes, because if not for Pierre/Teahen we could've easily added a 20 million dollar a year pitcher. No doubt about it

[Dick Allen]

Well, our own GM said he had a trade made for Halladay, but we couldn't come up with the funds.

Plus JR already threw out the sticking their necks out financially line. Their advanced sale is lagging, big time. They really needed a decent start. I think the payroll will be -$15-25 million lower next year if this year is a total flop. That could be just attrition with Konerko, AJP and Jenks easily discarded, or it could be something bigger than that.

 

As I posted in the gamethread, I received an out of the blue how are you doing how's everything call from my ticket rep on Friday. I have not received one of those in 7 years. I'm guessing they are very concerned.

[fathom]

Yes, because if not for Pierre/Teahen we could've easily added a 20 million dollar a year pitcher. No doubt about it

 

They were the two highest priced acquisitions of the offseason. Obviously, we're not talking about Peavy/Rios money.

[fathom]

Plus JR already threw out the sticking their necks out financially line. Their advanced sale is lagging, big time. They really needed a decent start. I think the payroll will be -$15-25 million lower next year if this year is a total flop. That could be just attrition with Konerko, AJP and Jenks easily discarded, or it could be something bigger than that.

 

As I posted in the gamethread, I received an out of the blue how are you doing how's everything call from my ticket rep on Friday. I have not received one of those in 7 years. I'm guessing they are very concerned.

 

Hawk was basically promoting the team all day today (ok, more than usual).

[Dick Allen]

We should have seen this coming, as PK was the guy that some of the posters on here with inside sources were claiming was content after winning the WS and just going through the motions.

I don't buy that at all. He really has a very bad thumb. He took a shot in spring training and its apparently holding up well, but at some point he'll need another shot. Paulie is a professional.

[fathom]

I don't buy that at all. He really has a very bad thumb. He took a shot in spring training and its apparently holding up well, but at some point he'll need another shot. Paulie is a professional.

 

I didn't/don't want to believe it either, but this came from more than one male/female on this site.

[WCSox]

I dunno man, Paulie and Andruw are performing well-above what can be expected of them right now...I mean Paulie is basically doing what we would expect from Adrian and our offense is still brutal right now. Once those two come down to earth a bit, adding a guy like Adrian wouldn't be a whole lot different than what we have going now, IMO. Don't get me wrong, I would love to have him, but one guy an offense does not make. We have two 1.1 OPS players right now, and we still can't score.

 

Thank you. Signing Adrian Gonzalez to a long-term deal isn't going to change the fact that the rest of the roster can't get on base routinely. Hell, AGon might end up breaking Barry Bonds' single-season walk record on the Sox. I'd sell off veterans for good young players before I forked down $100M+ for AGon. There are just too many holes to fill right now.

 

I'm also not buying this notion that guys like Pierre and Teahen are constricting the Sox's ability to sign veteran talent. While I agree that Teahen is overpaid, neither of these guys are owed nearly enough money to prevent Kenny from signing a quality bat. And it's not like Kenny currently has any reason to throw more money at this dung hill of a team, so it's a moot point right now.

 

[Marty34]

Plus JR already threw out the sticking their necks out financially line. Their advanced sale is lagging, big time. They really needed a decent start. I think the payroll will be -$15-25 million lower next year if this year is a total flop. That could be just attrition with Konerko, AJP and Jenks easily discarded, or it could be something bigger than that.

 

As I posted in the gamethread, I received an out of the blue how are you doing how's everything call from my ticket rep on Friday. I have not received one of those in 7 years. I'm guessing they are very concerned.

 

I'm sure they are concerned and things can certainly change, but one of the organization insiders I talked to a little over a week ago said ticket sales were fine, above offseason expectations, considering the economy and how they finished last year.

 

[IamtheHBOMB]

We should have seen this coming, as PK was the guy that some of the posters on here with inside sources were claiming was content after winning the WS and just going through the motions.

 

Seriously?

 

PK put these numbers up immediately following our World Series win:

 

HR: 35

RBI: 113

AVG: .313

OBP: .381

SLG: .551

OPS: .932

 

That looks nothing like a guy going through the motions to me.

[witesoxfan]

i seriously doubt it was happening a few weeks ago, and then Howard set the bar at >$25 million a season.

 

As Kalapse pointed out recently, it has essentially become an 8 year, $179 mill deal. In February last year, he signed a 3 year, $54 mill extension. That was followed up by a 5 year, $125 mill extension this offseason. The maximum value of the deal is 9 years, $192 mill due to the team option for $23 mill in 2017 with a $10 mill buyout. His entire deal is right at the market value set by Teixeira. Both Fielder and Gonzalez should be receiving contracts of about that same value, while Pujols's will be even bigger than that (Pujols will likely be around 8/$200, maybe a bit higher).

 

Fielder and Gonzalez's agents can start their negotiations at 8/$200, but they won't sign for that unless someone overpays drastically. Boston will almost certainly end up with one of them, but I think where the other ends up is a wild card.

[WCSox]

Plus JR already threw out the sticking their necks out financially line. Their advanced sale is lagging, big time. They really needed a decent start. I think the payroll will be -$15-25 million lower next year if this year is a total flop. That could be just attrition with Konerko, AJP and Jenks easily discarded, or it could be something bigger than that.

 

As I posted in the gamethread, I received an out of the blue how are you doing how's everything call from my ticket rep on Friday. I have not received one of those in 7 years. I'm guessing they are very concerned.

 

I completely agree. JR, Einhorn, and the rest of the Board are not going to continue to pay $100M a year for a third-place team. They'll shed payroll next year. History shows that they're not afraid to hold an unpopular firesale and to completely rebuild with prospects.

 

My guess is that PK is given a three-year extension at about half to 2/3 of his current yearly salary. There are way too many holes on this team and not enough young ML-ready players to fill them over the next few years. Paulie's bat and leadership skills make him a nice bridge to the likes of Flowers and D2.

 

[witesoxfan]

Thank you. Signing Adrian Gonzalez to a long-term deal isn't going to change the fact that the rest of the roster can't get on base routinely. Hell, AGon might end up breaking Barry Bonds' single-season walk record on the Sox. I'd sell off veterans for good young players before I forked down $100M+ for AGon. There are just too many holes to fill right now.

 

I'm also not buying this notion that guys like Pierre and Teahen are constricting the Sox's ability to sign veteran talent. While I agree that Teahen is overpaid, neither of these guys are owed nearly enough money to prevent Kenny from signing a quality bat. And it's not like Kenny currently has any reason to throw more money at this dung hill of a team, so it's a moot point right now.

 

Let's not act like the Sox lineup is somehow weaker than the Padres lineup. Obviously you are exaggerating, but it's not like teams would pitch around Gonzalez to get to Konerko, Quentin, Jones, or Rios on a regular basis.