The glass is half-full....

[caulfield12]

http://espn.go.com/mlb/beanecount

 

We're 6th in the AL in Beane Count, only 0.7 behind the Rays...YAY!!!!!

 

 

25 INDIANS: The league's lowest-scoring offense averages a .692 OPS. Four Indians beat this average, and one is Jhonny Peralta, who is hitting .227. (Steve Buffum, The B-List Indians Blog)

 

26 (24) White Sox 10-15 No AL team is getting less from its leadoff spot (.255 OBP, zero extra-base hits). The recently demoted Juan Pierre has been bad, but the "solutions" have been worse. (Jim Margalus, Sox Machine)

 

from espn power ratings/www.espn.com

 

 

Sorry, that bolded line made me laugh, and also conjured up visions of our CF "solutions" since 2005 or our 5th starter "solutions" from 2001-2004, Colon/Contreras in 2009, Garcia in 2010.

 

 

Edited May 3, 2010 by caulfield12

[dyuen]

Then again, the early returns on the Javy Vasquez deal don't look so good)

 

Give it some time. Lillibridge was never realistically expected to be a major league regular when we acquired him.

 

If Flowers doesn't make it as a catcher, then that's a pretty big hit as far as that trade goes, but Gilmore and Santos Rodriguez (especially) are interesting prospects, albeit ones we won't see for another two seasons, if not 3.

 

Look at it this way....Vazquez sucked for us when it counted, just jettisoning his contract would have been enough for me. Instead, we got a Top 50 catching prospect who's very intriguing and Gilmore/Rodriguez as part of the deal, both of who could emerge eventually at the big league level. It's nothing to get worked up about now regardless, that trade was alway a "way down the line" move in terms of evaluation.

 

If you want to dissect any move/s, it's both Swisher trades that have been pretty horrible in terms of an overall "net" return to the Sox. However, I'll cede KW's company line that Swisher wasn't going to play CF for us and that he allocated the money from Nick's deal to the signing of Viciedo. Only when/if Dayan fails to contribute can I completely write off every element of the 2 Swisher moves and call it a complete loss.

 

I don't see any real problem with the Javy trade. He sucked for us and he sucks now. Even if just Flowers becomes a ML catcher than the deal is worth it. I also agree on the Swisher moves. We gave up too much in the first deal and got nothing in return for him back. Since the two deals were a year apart they look pretty bad. I suppose you can say that KW did a good job of recognizing he wasn't fit for this team and dumping the salary but it seems like he could have gotten something useful in return.

 

Also, I don't think Mark would get us a premium of prospects from the Cards.

[caulfield12]

Disagree about Buehrle, simply because he's been horrible for a month now after Opening Day.

 

Still, he'll turn it around for 2-3 months and be the Buehrle (dependable version) we all know and love, and that every opposing GM would love to have on their roster, IF IF IF they could afford him.

 

I do agree with one aspect, the Cardinals have been much more budget-conscious and have gone with the "diamond in the rough" theory of acquiring starters since overspending from 1995-2005 in this area.

[Balta1701]

I do agree with one aspect, the Cardinals have been much more budget-conscious and have gone with the "diamond in the rough" theory of acquiring starters since overspending from 1995-2005 in this area.

Let's ad the qualifier that they're being budget-conscious in some ways (i.e. pitching) because they're about to hand out $50 million a year to the combination of Holliday and Pujols.

[caulfield12]

I was referring more to the Kyle Lohse, Kip Wells, Todd Wellemeyer, Joel Piniero, Sidney Ponson, etc., types that have dotted their roster for the past half decade.

 

That wasn't about Pujols' future allocation...it was simply tightening the belt strings. Jocketty's clashes with his own front office and ownership were also part of the equation there.

Edited May 3, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

The presence of those guys is directly related to the need to pay Pujols.

[greg775]

The time to have traded Buerhle was at the trade deadline last year when his value was higher than it is now (

 

When is the time right to ever trade a guy? Teams either want players or they don't.

So two years ago when Paulie stunk we should have traded him? What would we have gotten for him.

Peavy? Everybody was doing cartwheels when we got him and he's sucked.

Consistency is lacking in almost every player in the bigs not named Mauer, Rodriguez or Rivera or Pujols.

[southsider2k5]

Then again, the early returns on the Javy Vasquez deal don't look so good)

 

Give it some time. Lillibridge was never realistically expected to be a major league regular when we acquired him.

 

If Flowers doesn't make it as a catcher, then that's a pretty big hit as far as that trade goes, but Gilmore and Santos Rodriguez (especially) are interesting prospects, albeit ones we won't see for another two seasons, if not 3.

 

Look at it this way....Vazquez sucked for us when it counted, just jettisoning his contract would have been enough for me. Instead, we got a Top 50 catching prospect who's very intriguing and Gilmore/Rodriguez as part of the deal, both of who could emerge eventually at the big league level. It's nothing to get worked up about now regardless, that trade was alway a "way down the line" move in terms of evaluation.

 

If you want to dissect any move/s, it's both Swisher trades that have been pretty horrible in terms of an overall "net" return to the Sox. However, I'll cede KW's company line that Swisher wasn't going to play CF for us and that he allocated the money from Nick's deal to the signing of Viciedo. Only when/if Dayan fails to contribute can I completely write off every element of the 2 Swisher moves and call it a complete loss.

 

how many teams have traded for Vazquez and won the deal?

[WCSox]

how many teams have traded for Vazquez and won the deal?

 

We may have "won" in the sense that we got some decent pitching out of him, Young never developed as a hitter, and we recouped much of his contract extension by dealing him (and getting Flowers in return). At the very least, the damage was minimal.

 

[Balta1701]

Young never developed as a hitter

Sure about that?

[caulfield12]

I think saying Young never developed as a hitter is like saying that about Mike Cameron at the same point in his career...maybe disappointment compared to the high ceiling possible, but he's far from done as an impact major league ballplayer, not even close.

 

I'm not even sure Josh Byrnes would trade Young straight up for Gordon Beckham, to tell the truth.

[Tannerfan]

Getting back to the glass thing; I say we win three on this home stand then get creamed in Minny in both games, and this board blows up.

My glass was half full, then I realized it was with cheap vodka which I guzzled down, and now the glass is empty.

[caulfield12]

"The Safety Dance" is a classic retro song (now playing at USCF)...fun to hear that again, haha.

 

 

 

Edited May 4, 2010 by caulfield12

[ptatc]

Disagree about Buehrle, simply because he's been horrible for a month now after Opening Day.

 

Still, he'll turn it around for 2-3 months and be the Buehrle (dependable version) we all know and love, and that every opposing GM would love to have on their roster, IF IF IF they could afford him.

 

I do agree with one aspect, the Cardinals have been much more budget-conscious and have gone with the "diamond in the rough" theory of acquiring starters since overspending from 1995-2005 in this area.

 

There is something different in his motion this year. I can't quite figure it out yet. I think the decreased innings in spring wasn't about resting him for the season. I think it was about lingering shoulder issues from last year.

[caulfield12]

Some other positives. We are something like 2nd in the AL in homers, and first in all of MLB in stolen bases for the first time in at least two decades...if not longer.

 

 

[southsider2k5]

There is something different in his motion this year. I can't quite figure it out yet. I think the decreased innings in spring wasn't about resting him for the season. I think it was about lingering shoulder issues from last year.

 

Judging by his velocity fall, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Kalapse]

Some other positives. We are something like 2nd in the AL in homers, and first in all of MLB in stolen bases for the first time in at least two decades...if not longer.

We're 3rd in HR behind Toronto and Boston and 2nd in the majors in caught stealing. We have far and away the least strikeouts at 131, the Giants are next at 146, the D-Backs are last at 238 and we're right at league average in walks at 92. This is good. We also have by far the lowest BAbip in the game at .230 our lack of strikeouts way heavily into this. This is also a good sign.

[caulfield12]

Juan Pierre and Mark Kotsay must also weigh heavily on that BABIP number...yes?

 

[WCSox]

Sure about that?

 

I think saying Young never developed as a hitter is like saying that about Mike Cameron at the same point in his career...maybe disappointment compared to the high ceiling possible, but he's far from done as an impact major league ballplayer, not even close.

 

Um, small sample size? Perhaps it would've been more correct me for to say that he hasn't yet developed as a hitter, but let's not forget that this guy hasn't eclipsed an OPS+ of 90 in three full seasons and his slugging percentage has declined steadily over that time. Yeah, maybe he will turn the corner this year. And, hell, Jayson Nix might as well (only one year older than Young, former first-round pick). But I won't bet on either until I see more prolonged success at the ML level.

 

As for Cameron, he developed more quickly than Young did with far fewer ML plate appearances (actually had a really nice first full season). His plate discipline was also A LOT better than Young's at the same age. Due to the latter factor and the fact that Young's BB/K ratio is still bad, I don't see Young developing into as proficient a hitter as Cameron did.

 

[WCSox]

Some other positives. We are something like 2nd in the AL in homers

 

Crazy. How many people would've predicted that a month ago?

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What a surprise, CardsTalk.com cronies talking about trading Buehrle again.

 

Here's the reality check:

 

1) Mark's retirement is not a set-in-stone type of thing

2) Mark ALSO SAID that he didn't think he could deal with the pressure of playing for a hometown team - so the Cards thing isn't the slam-dunk you "Sox" fans think it is

3) Buehrle is *not* going to fetch us a bunch of top-100 prospects, or anything like that at all

4) In the end, when it's all said and done, what Mark would likely bring us in trade is a bunch of absolute f***ing garbage along with a useful-but-certainly-not-irreplaceable piece or two, despite how much some of the CardsTalk.com cronies will salivate and masturbate over these awesome prospects at the time of their arrival to the organization

5) To the more casual (and in many cases, truer) Sox fans, this is a total PR disaster

6) Mark may still decide to keep pitching - HIS OWN f***ING WIFE thinks he's full of s*** with the retirement talk - and if he does, he's at the Glavine pace right now. Do we REALLY want to dump that?

7) Dan Hudson, and all these other minor league pitchers, are unproven - not only in the American League, not only in the Cell, but in Major League Baseball period. You guys are f***ing crazy if you think the hole Buehrle's departure would open would be filled in short order. Anyone remember, I dunno, like, the majority of Sox pitching staffs since we've all been alive? Yeah. Like that.

8) This game isn't played on a PS2, an X-Box, whatever. It's easy to say "oh, trade so-and-so because then we can spend money on so-and-so." The reality is, there is no guarantee we will spend that money AT ALL, and if we do, there's always the chance we take on more Pierres and Linebrinks with it. Whoppee. And we're still not spending anything on the draft, so get that out of your thoughts.

9) The rebuilding factor. Just because we happened to hit the jackpot with Danks and Floyd doesn't mean it's going to happen again anytime soon. Look at how long it took us to put a winner out there after the strike. Then how long after the mirage 2000 season. I for one go absolutely nuts watching 2007-level Sox play, and for all you people who are so god damn excited for all these future Sox players, ask yourself honestly how excited you get when crappy teams get thrown out there. Because that's what happens when you trade players like Buehrle, you end up running garbage out there. Go check out the game threads after a loss where we played like s***, and then magnify that again. Go back and check out all the "Is (insert MiLB/MLB veteran reclamation project's name here) for real/the future/etc.?" type threads that pop up when we're running out garbage. It's not fun. Winning is fun, and trading Buehrle is only something an organization full of asshat losers would do.

10) Attendance. Yeah, dealing Buehrle is sure going to help there. I'm certain I'll get the retarded and recycled "Sox fans only care about the logos on the front of the jerseys, not the names on the backs of them" line in return, but the truth is, franchise players actually do matter to the major of the fans out there. Next time you're at the park, just take a walk around, find a few groups of stranger Sox fans, and then unveil your brilliant "Trade Buehrle!" plan to them. See what they think.

 

And I'm sure I could go on. Trading Buehrle is the type of move that will have Sox fans b****ing for the next 20+ years. Let the motherf***er walk if he's going to and take the draft picks. And that's IF. For all we know, Mark will sign a 3/$36M extension or something of the sort at the end of his current deal, and then go on to be just as successful as he's been for us thus far right on through that next commitment.

[WCSox]

And I'm sure I could go on. Trading Buehrle is the type of move that will have Sox fans b****ing for the next 20+ years. Let the motherf***er walk if he's going to and take the draft picks. And that's IF. For all we know, Mark will sign a 3/$36M extension or something of the sort at the end of his current deal, and then go on to be just as successful as he's been for us thus far right on through that next commitment.

 

This is hyperbole. Sox fans aren't going to be happy if the Sox aren't competitive... period. If they're playing sub-.500 baseball next July, the difference between trading Mark 2/3 of the way through a lost season vs. letting Mark walk as a free agent two months later is minimal.

Edited May 4, 2010 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

This is hyperbole. Sox fans aren't going to be happy if the Sox aren't competitive... period. If they're playing sub-.500 baseball next July, the difference between trading Mark 2/3 of the way through a lost season vs. letting Mark walk as a free agent two months later is minimal.

I'll give you that point. But really, I was just talking to someone last week about Ventura walking. And Ventura isn't Buehrle. If we trade Mark it will turn out to be one of those moves that define the organization as cheap, petty, heartless, etc. for a long time to a lot of people.

 

For your second point, let's look at this logically. What does 1/2 season of Mark Buehrle get us in trade? Remember in 2007 when Mark was on the verge of being traded? Remember the crowds chanting his name? Remember all the backlash? And remember the Boston talks involving Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden as the centerpieces since they wouldn't include Clay Buccholz? L-O-f***ing-L at trading a pitcher and a franchise piece like Mark and then the ensuing backlash for either of those players. Give me the draft picks and, from a PR standpoint, the peace of mind that comes with knowing Buehrle walked.

 

I will bet almost anything that the Sox do not trade Buehrle. Actually, if anyone at all on this site wants to bet me, I will do a sig bet with anyone here that if the Sox trade Buehrle you can control my sig and avatar for as long as you see fit, no matter how long. And in return all I'd ask is that, when I win the bet, the loser of the bet write a 5-page discourse on how much Mark Buehrle means to the city of Chicago and the Sox organization as a whole. So if anyone wants to take me up on that bet let me know, because it's a cakewalk for me.

 

Edit: Anyway, the point is, at least since I've been alive, we've never dealt anyone like Mark. We let Robin and Frank walk, that's it. But I really think trading Mark would be a s***storm, and because of that I don't hink it's going to happen, and I don't think the payoff would be worth it. The difference in value in terms of deadline deals for 1/2 seasons vs. the value of draft picks isn't necessarily that significant, and actually the draft picks could turn out better than anything we'd get in trade.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[SoxAce]

For your second point, let's look at this logically. What does 1/2 season of Mark Buehrle get us in trade? Remember in 2007 when Mark was on the verge of being traded? Remember the crowds chanting his name? Remember all the backlash? And remember the Boston talks involving Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden as the centerpieces since they wouldn't include Clay Buccholz? L-O-f***ing-L at trading a pitcher and a franchise piece like Mark and then the ensuing backlash for either of those players. Give me the draft picks and, from a PR standpoint, the peace of mind that comes with knowing Buehrle walked.

 

I've long said that Buehrle's trade value is very lessened on what he actually brings to teams cause he isn't the sexy "stuff" pitcher and such. If he's ever traded, the return won't be ever as good as he would bring to the other club and the sox brass knows this. I actually agree with you on trading Buehrle cause it would sting me personally, who you went alittle too far (much like your Adrian love fest) with the b****ing the fan base for 20+ years. Frank was the only player I ever thought would do that to a fan base, but he being a FA perhaps helped lessen the blow from people I've talked to here. It will hurt sox fans alot emotionally, but WC is right, if a winning product is on the field, it won't matter. People will still come out and support.

Edited May 4, 2010 by SoxAce

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I've long said that Buehrle's trade value is very lessened on what he means for teams cause he isn't the "sexy" stuff pitcher and such. If he's ever traded, the return won't be ever as good as he would bring to the other club and the sox brass knows this. I actually agree with you on trading Buehrle cause it would sting me personally, who you went alittle too far (much like your Adrian love fest) with the b****ing the fan base for 20+ years. Frank was the only player I ever thought would do that to a fan base, but he being a FA perhaps helped lessen the blow from people I've talked to here. It will hurt sox fans alot, but WC is right, if a winning product is on the field, people will still come out and support.

I guarantee you people would b**** for a very long time about trading Buehrle, but I don't think it'll ever happen so my guarantee really doesn't mean anything.

 

About Adrian, it's the basic idea that winning in the Majors, winning in the playoffs, is what it is all about. Just look at the Phillies for the A#1 perfect example. They win the WS and it means they can give extensions to everyone they want, trade for Cliff Lee, trade for Halladay and extend him, etc. If that team doesn't win then they are in a very different position right now. If we traded the farm for Adrian now, then the picture you get right now when you think of the consequences in 2012-14 is not going to be anything like the real 2012-14 if we do our share of winning. Win first, then rebuild when you absolutely have to. There's a lot of love on the board for our AA and AAA guys and to be honest there's no one I have any faith in except Hudson and of the rest Viciedo is really the only one who intrigues me. Chances are the current crop isn't even enough to land Adrian, but if it is, it's a rarity for a player of that caliber to be available, so you just do it. If we win it all then nobody gives a s*** about the prospects we traded anymore.