The glass is half-full....

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

BTW, I for one don't think we're doomed at all. I think we have a very good team overall that could do some serious damage in the playoffs if we get there, but the problem is getting there. There are a couple players I will not mention because I've b****ed about them since they came here, but I genuinely believe that if we get a big bat to break up the righties in the middle and push one of these crappy players out of the picture, we will be able to kick some serious ass. So that's what I want to see. I do not in any way see our current situation as a fire sale situation. Paulie and Jones have their resurgences along with Rios being Rios just makes me that much more confident that if we make the right moves early we'll have a shot at getting to the playoffs.

[chisox2334]

lets see how may is going for us and then see where were going.

[fathom]

BTW, I for one don't think we're doomed at all. I think we have a very good team overall that could do some serious damage in the playoffs if we get there, but the problem is getting there. There are a couple players I will not mention because I've b****ed about them since they came here, but I genuinely believe that if we get a big bat to break up the righties in the middle and push one of these crappy players out of the picture, we will be able to kick some serious ass. So that's what I want to see. I do not in any way see our current situation as a fire sale situation. Paulie and Jones have their resurgences along with Rios being Rios just makes me that much more confident that if we make the right moves early we'll have a shot at getting to the playoffs.

 

You brought up a great point. Adding a big bat not only makes the offense better, but it also eliminates someone who currently makes the offense worse. At the game last night, you couldn't help but feel hopeless whenever Pierre, Kotsay, or Teahen were up.

[BigSqwert]

At the game last night, you couldn't help but feel hopeless whenever Pierre, Kotsay, Beckham, or Teahen were up.

 

Fixed according to my perspective.

[SoxAce]

I guarantee you people would b**** for a very long time about trading Buehrle, but I don't think it'll ever happen so my guarantee really doesn't mean anything.

 

About Adrian, it's the basic idea that winning in the Majors, winning in the playoffs, is what it is all about. Just look at the Phillies for the A#1 perfect example. They win the WS and it means they can give extensions to everyone they want, trade for Cliff Lee, trade for Halladay and extend him, etc. If that team doesn't win then they are in a very different position right now. If we traded the farm for Adrian now, then the picture you get right now when you think of the consequences in 2012-14 is not going to be anything like the real 2012-14 if we do our share of winning. Win first, then rebuild when you absolutely have to. There's a lot of love on the board for our AA and AAA guys and to be honest there's no one I have any faith in except Hudson and of the rest Viciedo is really the only one who intrigues me. Chances are the current crop isn't even enough to land Adrian, but if it is, it's a rarity for a player of that caliber to be available, so you just do it. If we win it all then nobody gives a s*** about the prospects we traded anymore.

 

I don't need to reiterate Adrian talks, not to mention bring back up old threads, since we've had this discussion before. Some points I agree with, others I feel like you just don't get it. There is no secret we need another bat (Berkman looks better everyday) but right now, that won't happen this early. The Buehrle thing I do agree with however, and like I said, it will sting, but a winning product certainly helps.

[WCSox]

I'll give you that point. But really, I was just talking to someone last week about Ventura walking. And Ventura isn't Buehrle. If we trade Mark it will turn out to be one of those moves that define the organization as cheap, petty, heartless, etc. for a long time to a lot of people.

 

For your second point, let's look at this logically. What does 1/2 season of Mark Buehrle get us in trade? Remember in 2007 when Mark was on the verge of being traded? Remember the crowds chanting his name? Remember all the backlash? And remember the Boston talks involving Justin Masterson or Michael Bowden as the centerpieces since they wouldn't include Clay Buccholz? L-O-f***ing-L at trading a pitcher and a franchise piece like Mark and then the ensuing backlash for either of those players. Give me the draft picks and, from a PR standpoint, the peace of mind that comes with knowing Buehrle walked.

 

I will bet almost anything that the Sox do not trade Buehrle. Actually, if anyone at all on this site wants to bet me, I will do a sig bet with anyone here that if the Sox trade Buehrle you can control my sig and avatar for as long as you see fit, no matter how long. And in return all I'd ask is that, when I win the bet, the loser of the bet write a 5-page discourse on how much Mark Buehrle means to the city of Chicago and the Sox organization as a whole. So if anyone wants to take me up on that bet let me know, because it's a cakewalk for me.

 

Edit: Anyway, the point is, at least since I've been alive, we've never dealt anyone like Mark. We let Robin and Frank walk, that's it. But I really think trading Mark would be a s***storm, and because of that I don't hink it's going to happen, and I don't think the payoff would be worth it. The difference in value in terms of deadline deals for 1/2 seasons vs. the value of draft picks isn't necessarily that significant, and actually the draft picks could turn out better than anything we'd get in trade.

 

A half-season of Mark Buehrle saves us about $7M. I'm not advocating that route, but there is tangible financial benefit for dealing him in the middle of a bad season, just a few months before his contract expires.

 

I don't agree that trading Mark would be nearly the "s*** storm" that you think it will. This would not be the first time that the Sox traded a highly-successful, fan-favorite starting pitcher (see: McDowell, Jack), and I'm pretty sure that they'd do it again if they felt that the benefits outweighed the downside of upsetting a few overly-sentimental fans who are still clinging to 2005. I don't think that your comparison with the fan reaction in 2007 is applicable, as the fans clamoring for his return were less than two years removed from a championship. The Sox have sucked since 2008 and if they continue to suck through this time next year, it's highly unlikely that you'll see numerous "Re-sign Mark" signs at the Cell. That era died last season, and the vast majority of the 2005 team aren't in the organization anymore.

 

If Mark actually wants to continue pitching past 2011, the question then becomes: Buehrle or Danks? Realistically, signing both to extensions makes little sense with Peavy and Floyd under contract through at least 2012 (both have 2013 options), Hudson nearly ready to pitch in the bigs, and a glaring lack of offensive talent that will almost certainly have to be addressed through free agency. The Sox can't afford a $50M starting rotation. If the Sox can convince Danks to sign a reasonable four- or five-year extension, I'd probably go with him. Mark will be 33 in his first year of free agency and will have about 2,500 innings on his arm. If Danks did walk and Mark was open to an extension, it would be nice to bring him back, but I don't think that he's a $14M/year pitcher anymore. And that's a problem because he already signed a deal that was WELL below what the FA market would've given him back in 2007. Asking him to re-sign for, say, 3/30 would almost be an insult. But it would be stupid for the Sox to give him a 3/45 deal when it appears highly unlikely that he's not going to have a 2005- or 2001-type season again. So I have a really difficult time seeing how Mark fits into the Sox's post-2011 plans.

Edited May 4, 2010 by WCSox

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

A half-season of Mark Buehrle saves us about $7M. I'm not advocating that route, but there is tangible financial benefit for dealing him in the middle of a bad season, just a few months before his contract expires.

 

There is, and with anyone else on this team I could see that argument. But Mark has done things here that put him at a level above every other player on this team, and in this instance, that $7M saved isn't worth all the bad publicity and hurt feelings of diehard fans. In reality, sayings like, "the bottom line is all that matters" and "any publicity is good publicity" don't stand very long.

 

I don't agree that trading Mark would be nearly the "s*** storm" that you think it will. This would not be the first time that the Sox traded a highly-successful, fan-favorite starting pitcher (see: McDowell, Jack), and I'm pretty sure that they'd do it again if they felt that the benefits outweighed the downside of upsetting a few overly-sentimental fans who are still clinging to 2005.

 

I love Blackjack, but seriously, there's no comparison between the two. Blackjack got a Cy Young, but it's a lot easier to do that than set a MLB record for batters retired, bring home a WS ring, start an All-Star game, pick up a WS save, throw a no-no, throw a perfect game, win a gold glove, and pretty much serve as the face of the organization. No comparison. And I really, really do not think the Sox would trade Buehrle especially after what they witnessed in 2007, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

If Mark actually wants to continue pitching past 2011, the question then becomes: Buehrle or Danks? Realistically, signing both to extensions makes little sense with Peavy and Floyd under contract through at least 2012 (both have 2013 options), Hudson nearly ready to pitch in the bigs, and a glaring lack of offensive talent that will almost certainly have to be addressed through free agency. The Sox can't afford a $50M starting rotation. If the Sox can convince Danks to sign a reasonable four- or five-year extension, I'd probably go with him. Mark will be 33 in his first year of free agency and will have about 2,500 innings on his arm. If Danks did walk and Mark was open to an extension, it would be nice to bring him back, but I don't think that he's a $14M/year pitcher anymore. And that's a problem because he already signed a deal that was WELL below what the FA market would've given him back in 2007. Asking him to re-sign for, say, 3/30 would almost be an insult. But it would be stupid for the Sox to give him a 3/45 deal when it appears highly unlikely that he's not going to have a 2005- or 2001-type season again. So I have a really difficult time seeing how Mark fits into the Sox's post-2011 plans.

I think you're looking waaaaaaaaaaay too far ahead, even though it doesn't seem too far ahead. Let's see how we do this year. If we go far in the playoffs, and aside from the hate a lot of Sox and Bulls fans have for JR, it's pretty clear that JR wants to win, so extending them all may be a very real possibility. Check out the costs of the 2006 rotation and get back to me as far as the rotation costs. That was an expensive staff, and we had McCarthy who back then was a lot higher on the national scene rankings than Hudson is now.

 

How is Mark not a $14M pitcher? I really don't want to have this discussion because I posted a bunch of stuff on pitcher contracts before when this came up. I've proven that Buehrle is on a bargain contract before and I don't feel like doing it again. Coming to the AL and pitching in the Cell, and putting up those numbers over that many innings gets you that kind of money. That's just the reality of it. Mark is actually cheap because he doesn't throw 95. If Mark put up the same ERA and IP and WHIP as a lefty with that health record while throwing 95 he'd be making $18M+ now guaranteed.

 

I disagree completely that Mark won't have another great year. What makes you say that? How can you say that as a Sox fan who has watched him pitch here his entire career? It should be apparent that Mark is a cerebral lefty who knows how to pitch with limited stuff, and who is also a workhorse who can stay healthy all year, and who also is a big game pitcher who just so happened to no-hit and throw a perfecto against two of the toughest offenses in baseball to do those things against. It should be very clear just how great Mark is - notice I said great, not good or very good. Mark has been a great pitcher.

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I don't need to reiterate Adrian talks, not to mention bring back up old threads, since we've had this discussion before. Some points I agree with, others I feel like you just don't get it. There is no secret we need another bat (Berkman looks better everyday) but right now, that won't happen this early. The Buehrle thing I do agree with however, and like I said, it will sting, but a winning product certainly helps.

Well, I'm just happy we agree on one point then. And yes, Berkman would look good right now, but a lot of hitters would look good right now, and some of them I don't even want.

[caulfield12]

Lots of good points.

 

I was thinking back to former Sox players and their circumstances when leaving the organization, and looking for parallels. There aren't really any.

 

The closest people would be in "angry/upsetedness" level would have to be with the way Fisk was treated on the way out the door. Baines was the face of the franchise for 10 years, and might end up closer to the HOF than Mark (clearly the case if Mark left the game sooner rather than later), but never quite as beloved, and missing some of the 2005/WS glory, and he only played on one playoff team for the Sox as a prominent hitter, 1983, correct?

 

Ventura in 1997/1998, walking to the Mets? Lance Johnson leaving? Nope. McDowell, admired by a lot, but not beloved.

 

Durham/Ordonez/C-Lee/Valentin/Thomas....Thomas is the greatest hitter (along with KG Jr.) of his generation, a lot of people were PO'ed with KW for the treatment they perceived that Big Hurt was receiving from our FO, but that blew over quickly with the WS win.

 

Then you have the current generation of Sox heroes, Rowand and Crede...we somehow survived their departures, but, once again, neither was the face of the franchise like Buehrle and Konerko for a generation.

 

In the end, Sox fans understand the game of baseball...and they'll understand losing Konerko, AJ and Jenks is mostly about business and nothing personal directed towards those three guys.

 

I think Mark continuing to pitch depends on how his arm/shoulder feels, what happens with Ozzie and KW over the next two seasons (Mark genuinely seems to like everyone in our front office, coaching staff and organization), and how competitive the ballclub is...my gut says there's a 75-80% chance he's here with the Sox in 2012. That said, I too would allocate money to Danks OVER Buehrle if I had to choose which one to keep...and which one is deserving of a long-term, multi-year deal at $13-17 million per year based on expected/predicted performance going forward.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Lots of good points.

 

I was thinking back to former Sox players and their circumstances when leaving the organization, and looking for parallels. There aren't really any.

 

The closest people would be in "angry/upsetedness" level would have to be with the way Fisk was treated on the way out the door. Baines was the face of the franchise for 10 years, and might end up closer to the HOF than Mark (clearly the case if Mark left the game sooner rather than later), but never quite as beloved, and missing some of the 2005/WS glory, and he only played on one playoff team for the Sox as a prominent hitter, 1983, correct?

 

Ventura in 1997/1998, walking to the Mets? Lance Johnson leaving? Nope. McDowell, admired by a lot, but not beloved.

 

Durham/Ordonez/C-Lee/Valentin/Thomas....Thomas is the greatest hitter (along with KG Jr.) of his generation, a lot of people were PO'ed with KW for the treatment they perceived that Big Hurt was receiving from our FO, but that blew over quickly with the WS win.

 

Then you have the current generation of Sox heroes, Rowand and Crede...we somehow survived their departures, but, once again, neither was the face of the franchise like Buehrle and Konerko for a generation.

 

In the end, Sox fans understand the game of baseball...and they'll understand losing Konerko, AJ and Jenks is mostly about business and nothing personal directed towards those three guys.

 

I think Mark continuing to pitch depends on how his arm/shoulder feels, what happens with Ozzie and KW over the next two seasons (Mark genuinely seems to like everyone in our front office, coaching staff and organization), and how competitive the ballclub is...my gut says there's a 75-80% chance he's here with the Sox in 2012. That said, I too would allocate money to Danks OVER Buehrle if I had to choose which one to keep...and which one is deserving of a long-term, multi-year deal at $13-17 million per year based on expected/predicted performance going forward.

I agree with all of this.

 

Edit: I just noticed I'm beyond 3,000 posts and apparently it happened a while ago. Didn't even know that. Maybe I need to step away for awhile.

 

Edit #2: Caulfield is one of my favorite posters. Just had to say that.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[caulfield12]

Wow, thanks for the love KHP, haha...I'm more acclimated to the opposite.

 

Actually, I was suprised to see you arguing so vehemently here...and you're right about Buehrle, and 90% of the fanbase would agree with your general sentiments in this particular case. Notice I said "sentiments," that's part of the key, just like the post-2005 WS signing of Konerko (after handing the ball pridefully to JR), there's just something about watching the way Buehrle is with the ceremonial first pitch, the way he mentors the younger pitchers like Danks and Floyd, the constant smile on his face, the "rain delay/tarp" antics...he's just White Sox baseball, he represents that "blue collar" or underdog element all fans appreciate, being taken for granted, drafted so low, having to prove the scouts and doubters (who preferred Garland, Kip Wells, Danny Wright, Ginter, even Josh Fogg or Jim Parque) wrong every step of the way and seeming to do it with a smirk on his face the whole time. His bulldog mentality...holding the Astros down enough in freezing cold game to let us rally back, and, most specifically, the willingness to come in and try to save that extra inning game in HOU. I know those Master Card commercials are a cliche, but the White Sox really should do one for Mark specifically where they throw together a montage of his highlights and put "priceless" at the end. Maybe the Sox won't do it, but his agent should. Not that Mark would ever try to extort JR, it's not his style.

 

We all felt in our "heart of hearts" that it was time to cut the cord with JD because of his deteriorating defense and unwillingness to DH and the fact we couldn't easily move him to 1B with Paulie already esconced there.

 

Thome...not going to touch that one again, but TMK at-bats are almost becoming comical for their ineptitude these days. To the point where you don't even get upset anymore when he does something either non-productive, or, as is usually the case, counter-productive.

Edited May 4, 2010 by caulfield12

[WCSox]

There is, and with anyone else on this team I could see that argument. But Mark has done things here that put him at a level above every other player on this team, and in this instance, that $7M saved isn't worth all the bad publicity and hurt feelings of diehard fans. In reality, sayings like, "the bottom line is all that matters" and "any publicity is good publicity" don't stand very long.

 

 

 

I love Blackjack, but seriously, there's no comparison between the two. Blackjack got a Cy Young, but it's a lot easier to do that than set a MLB record for batters retired, bring home a WS ring, start an All-Star game, pick up a WS save, throw a no-no, throw a perfect game, win a gold glove, and pretty much serve as the face of the organization. No comparison. And I really, really do not think the Sox would trade Buehrle especially after what they witnessed in 2007, so we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

 

 

I think you're looking waaaaaaaaaaay too far ahead, even though it doesn't seem too far ahead. Let's see how we do this year. If we go far in the playoffs, and aside from the hate a lot of Sox and Bulls fans have for JR, it's pretty clear that JR wants to win, so extending them all may be a very real possibility. Check out the costs of the 2006 rotation and get back to me as far as the rotation costs. That was an expensive staff, and we had McCarthy who back then was a lot higher on the national scene rankings than Hudson is now.

 

How is Mark not a $14M pitcher? I really don't want to have this discussion because I posted a bunch of stuff on pitcher contracts before when this came up. I've proven that Buehrle is on a bargain contract before and I don't feel like doing it again. Coming to the AL and pitching in the Cell, and putting up those numbers over that many innings gets you that kind of money. That's just the reality of it. Mark is actually cheap because he doesn't throw 95. If Mark put up the same ERA and IP and WHIP as a lefty with that health record while throwing 95 he'd be making $18M+ now guaranteed.

 

I disagree completely that Mark won't have another great year. What makes you say that? How can you say that as a Sox fan who has watched him pitch here his entire career? It should be apparent that Mark is a cerebral lefty who knows how to pitch with limited stuff, and who is also a workhorse who can stay healthy all year, and who also is a big game pitcher who just so happened to no-hit and throw a perfecto against two of the toughest offenses in baseball to do those things against. It should be very clear just how great Mark is - notice I said great, not good or very good. Mark has been a great pitcher.

 

I disagree with you in three basic areas...

 

(1) You are obviously a huge Mark Buehrle fan. But I don't believe that your fondness for Mark is representative of the average Sox fan. Most Sox fans know that Mark's been pitching here for a while, he was a huge part of them winning a WS, and he's pitched some absolutely phenomenal games, but the Sox haven't won squat since they re-signed him three years ago and it seems unlikely that they're going to win again with him. He was part of a great team, but that era has come to an end.

 

(2) I strongly disagree that trading Mark in the middle of a bad 2011 season would irritate the average fan that much more than keeping him on the roster through September and letting him walk as a FA. There may be organizational benefit one way or the other, depending on who Mark would agree to be traded to and what that team would be willing to give up. From the fan's perspective, the result is the same: The Sox don't make the playoffs. I just don't see the massive PR backlash that you're envisioning. Of course, trading Mark in the middle of a competitive 2011 season would be disasterous (see: Alvarez, Wilson), and I think that we agree there.

 

(3) Mark hasn't been a "great" pitcher for the duration of a full season since 2005. You can say what you want about the no-hitter and the perfect game, but his seasonal numbers since then have ranged from "very good" to "mediocre." Mark's also lost about 2 mph from his fastball since '05. Given all of that, I think it's unlikely that he has another 2001- or 2005-like year. I also think it's highly unlikely that he's a legit Cy Young candidate again. It is likely that he continues to post "really good" numbers for the next couple of years (120 ERA+, 1.25 WHIP, etc.), which is why I believe that he's a "really good" pitcher. But not a "great" pitcher.

 

I agree that Mark's 4/56 deal back in '07 was great for the time (especially considering what Zito got), but (1) the market has changed significantly since then, (2) Mark's numbers have declined somewhat since (in comparison to his previous contract), and (3) he'll be 33 with 2,500 innings on his arm in his first year or free agency. When you've already committed large sums to Peavy and Floyd, with the potential for another big-money deal with Danks, I don't see the point in investing more than 3/36 in Mark.

 

Just my opinion, and we can agree to disagree on it. For what it's worth, I hope that Mark goes off this year, rescues this sinking ship of a team, and makes me look like a fool. But I'm not betting on it.

Edited May 4, 2010 by WCSox

[caulfield12]

All very good counterpoints WCSOX.

 

I can't argue with any of them, he's very very streaky and goes through long funks (like now) even though the overall numbers in the end look pretty darned nice.

 

Arguing sentimentality versus cold/hard "baseball is a game, it's nothing personal" reality and facts (your response), it's easy to see the conflicting sides of the debate and also to see how hard it will be on the White Sox organization (particularly JR, Ozzie, KW and Cooper) to let him walk or to trade him to another team, particularly one in the American League.

 

Everyone loves the idea of players like Yount/Whitaker/Trammell/Gwynn/Ripken/Puckett/Mattingly playing and finishing their careers with one organization. It'd be great to see with Mark, but I'm not counting on it.

 

And maybe my 90% of the fanbase being on KHP's side is a little hyperbolic, but I think it's very easy to say a majority would be a solid 60-75%...the only way they'd be okay is if the team played so well without him and made it to the playoffs. Seeing Danks and Buehrle both leave will be hard for many Sox fans to deal with.

 

 

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Wow, thanks for the love KHP, haha...I'm more acclimated to the opposite.

 

Actually, I was suprised to see you arguing so vehemently here...and you're right about Buehrle, and 90% of the fanbase would agree with your general sentiments in this particular case. Notice I said "sentiments," that's part of the key, just like the post-2005 WS signing of Konerko (after handing the ball pridefully to JR), there's just something about watching the way Buehrle is with the ceremonial first pitch, the way he mentors the younger pitchers like Danks and Floyd, the constant smile on his face, the "rain delay/tarp" antics...he's just White Sox baseball, he represents that "blue collar" or underdog element all fans appreciate, being taken for granted, drafted so low, having to prove the scouts and doubters (who preferred Garland, Kip Wells, Danny Wright, Ginter, even Josh Fogg or Jim Parque) wrong every step of the way and seeming to do it with a smirk on his face the whole time. His bulldog mentality...holding the Astros down enough in freezing cold game to let us rally back, and, most specifically, the willingness to come in and try to save that extra inning game in HOU. I know those Master Card commercials are a cliche, but the White Sox really should do one for Mark specifically where they throw together a montage of his highlights and put "priceless" at the end. Maybe the Sox won't do it, but his agent should. Not that Mark would ever try to extort JR, it's not his style.

 

We all felt in our "heart of hearts" that it was time to cut the cord with JD because of his deteriorating defense and unwillingness to DH and the fact we couldn't easily move him to 1B with Paulie already esconced there.

 

Thome...not going to touch that one again, but TMK at-bats are almost becoming comical for their ineptitude these days. To the point where you don't even get upset anymore when he does something either non-productive, or, as is usually the case, counter-productive.

I always argue vehemently for Mark. I do the same for AJ, but trading Mark will always be the #1 hot-button topic for me as long as he's here. It's just amazing to me why anyone would 1) want to trade him in the first place, and 2) think the payoff would be worth it. It's always borderline delusional to trade a player of that caliber and expect an equal or better replacement because it's such a rarity (Haren/Mulder example), and most often those trades turn out really bad (Johan Santana, the best in the game, nets the Twins an arb-eligible JJ Hardy). And I agree with everything you wrote there.

 

The love is because I remember back when you posted on WSI and IIRC I think I left there not a long while after you did, and was happy to see you here. I think they banned you or something, I just remember thinking that was BS because you posted articles and stuff all the time. So I've been a Caulfield supporter ever since, you're a good poster and you always add something.

 

Agree on JD and Thome. Sox fans will always love them, and if it comes to the point with Mark where he's not at the level he should be, then I think as a unit Sox fans will be able to let go much easier. But Mark is in his prime still and now is not the time for that.

 

 

[Balta1701]

One thing worth noting...we might not have Jake Peavy in our rotation without Buehrle. We were able to put together a package for Peavy centered around a LH starter who was having success in the big leagues by emulating Buehrle's pitching fast/throwing strikes routine.

[Leonard Zelig]

Wait, why are we trading Buehrle? And didn't the Cardinals trade all their prospects to get Holliday last year?

[ThunderBolt]

One thing worth noting...we might not have Jake Peavy in our rotation without Buehrle. We were able to put together a package for Peavy centered around a LH starter who was having success in the big leagues by emulating Buehrle's pitching fast/throwing strikes routine.

It's now more of an organizational philosophy then it is a Buehrle thing, same with the cutter, remember when Torres came up to start, and he was throwing at the same pace? It's trickled down throughout the system.

[Balta1701]

It's now more of an organizational philosophy then it is a Buehrle thing, same with the cutter, remember when Torres came up to start, and he was throwing at the same pace? It's trickled down throughout the system.

IMO, it's an organizational philosophy because of MB.

[caulfield12]

I always argue vehemently for Mark. I do the same for AJ, but trading Mark will always be the #1 hot-button topic for me as long as he's here. It's just amazing to me why anyone would 1) want to trade him in the first place, and 2) think the payoff would be worth it. It's always borderline delusional to trade a player of that caliber and expect an equal or better replacement because it's such a rarity (Haren/Mulder example), and most often those trades turn out really bad (Johan Santana, the best in the game, nets the Twins an arb-eligible JJ Hardy). And I agree with everything you wrote there.

 

The love is because I remember back when you posted on WSI and IIRC I think I left there not a long while after you did, and was happy to see you here. I think they banned you or something, I just remember thinking that was BS because you posted articles and stuff all the time. So I've been a Caulfield supporter ever since, you're a good poster and you always add something.

 

Agree on JD and Thome. Sox fans will always love them, and if it comes to the point with Mark where he's not at the level he should be, then I think as a unit Sox fans will be able to let go much easier. But Mark is in his prime still and now is not the time for that.

 

 

I can deal with the guys at WSI. What made me really upset was that I asked my best friend to join that site specifically to talk about White Sox baseball...he hates to use sites like Facebook and myspace, so it was kind of a big deal and he was looking forward to it.

 

Very quickly, I can't even remember what caused it, I think it had something to do with music...he was quickly "ambushed" and circled by vultures who kept attacking him. The silly thing is that there was no sound reason behind attacking someone, it's just that group-think mentality over there that anyone with an independent opinion should be crushed, the "rebellion/insurrection" against their norms and standards put down quickly and efficiently.

 

I really got into the middle of it trying to defend my friend (I was the only one he knew on that board when he joined)...and that experience alone was enough to cause me to sour on it. There are some good posters there, just like here, but we have "freer" more opinionated and "open" discussions that are encouraged as long as they stay within the realm of "reasonableness." Over there, reason is defined as parroting the viewpoints of the mods about any given subject. I won't go as far as to use words like Gestapo (which diminishes real life historical suffering), but there's absolutely no reason to make so many people who join a message board to talk about something they love miserable or unhappy.

 

Why? It just doesn't make sense to me. We should be encouraging (especially to younger and "less Sox-educated") to posters, and I had the feeling we were really turning quite a few teenagers and 20 somethings away from being Sox fans. Some where obviously fair-weather variety, but many had earnest questions and they were jumped on to the point where they simply disappeared. And I can't say I would blame them, when you're treated that way and made to feel you've done something so egregious or harmful, it's a MESSAGE BOARD for God's sake.

 

But I am proud to be "banned for life" at WSI. I don't think it goes on my epitaph or tombstone, however.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2010 by caulfield12

[ThunderBolt]

IMO, it's an organizational philosophy because of MB.

Oh, yeah. I agree wholeheartedly. I just think it's going to stick around even after he's gone.

[caulfield12]

When we have defenders like Teahen and Alexei's attention span, we need all the defensive help we can get by keeping the fielders alert and into the game 100% instead of daydreaming like they would when Jose or Vazquez were out there. Floyd could definitely get a little more of that into his system as well...and he does pitch faster, it's when he has no rhythm and command of his pitches and he struggles with pitch counts that games go 3+ hours with him. Peavy, same thing, never will be a fast worker with his pitch count numbers.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

I disagree with you in three basic areas...

 

(1) You are obviously a huge Mark Buehrle fan. But I don't believe that your fondness for Mark is representative of the average Sox fan. Most Sox fans know that Mark's been pitching here for a while, he was a huge part of them winning a WS, and he's pitched some absolutely phenomenal games, but the Sox haven't won squat since they re-signed him three years ago and it seems unlikely that they're going to win again with him. He was part of a great team, but that era has come to an end.

 

Seems unlikely? Every single year it's unlikely we win it all, and winning it all is really the only thing that matters. But just because it's unlikely doesn't mean you shouldn't try. And again, we will have to agree to disagree, but I think Sox fans care a lot more about Buehrle than you think. The only thing I can do is cite the outrage in 2007 over the idea of trading him, and the response from the fans as he pitched at home. I can't remember that kind of response for anyone else.

 

(2) I strongly disagree that trading Mark in the middle of a bad 2011 season would irritate the average fan that much more than keeping him on the roster through September and letting him walk as a FA. There may be organizational benefit one way or the other, depending on who Mark would agree to be traded to and what that team would be willing to give up. From the fan's perspective, the result is the same: The Sox don't make the playoffs. I just don't see the massive PR backlash that you're envisioning. Of course, trading Mark in the middle of a competitive 2011 season would be disasterous (see: Alvarez, Wilson), and I think that we agree there.

 

Again, we'll agree to disagree, because I think trading Mark would piss the hell out of Sox fans just like the idea of it did in 2007. Letting him walk would still piss fans off, but the idea of him leaving for more years/money is a lot easier to digest than simply trading him off and not making an attempt to bring him back. And no, from the fans perspective I don't think it is as simple as you make it. I see the fans viewing Mark's departure as a negative on ownership and management, and I think it puts strong doubts in their heads with regards to the team's ability to compete in the near future. So it hurts in the heart and it hurts in the ticket sales department as well.

 

(3) Mark hasn't been a "great" pitcher for the duration of a full season since 2005. You can say what you want about the no-hitter and the perfect game, but his seasonal numbers since then have ranged from "very good" to "mediocre." Mark's also lost about 2 mph from his fastball since '05. Given all of that, I think it's unlikely that he has another 2001- or 2005-like year. I also think it's highly unlikely that he's a legit Cy Young candidate again. It is likely that he continues to post "really good" numbers for the next couple of years (120 ERA+, 1.25 WHIP, etc.), which is why I believe that he's a "really good" pitcher. But not a "great" pitcher.

 

You have to look at what Mark does year after year, as well as the whole career picture, and then factor in league and park. Please, go ahead and make me a list of all the pitchers you would rather have than Mark Buehrle. That list can't be very long, and if it is, there's going to some real stretches in it. You don't just show up all of a sudden and throw up an ERA well under 4 in the AL and at the Cell while tossing 200+IP with a 1.27 WHIP. There are a ton of guys with better stuff, and a ton of guys who are younger and who people on this site would swear up and down are better, but the truth is, very few pitchers are capable of putting up Mark Buehrle-type numbers in the same place Mark Buehrle puts them up. That's just the truth.

 

I agree that Mark's 4/56 deal back in '07 was great for the time (especially considering what Zito got), but (1) the market has changed significantly since then, (2) Mark's numbers have declined somewhat since (in comparison to his previous contract), and (3) he'll be 33 with 2,500 innings on his arm in his first year or free agency. When you've already committed large sums to Peavy and Floyd, with the potential for another big-money deal with Danks, I don't see the point in investing more than 3/36 in Mark.

 

Given what the Red Sox gave to Lackey (injury history) and what the Yankees gave to Burnett (overall Javy-ness) I would say Mark's deal is definitely a bargain still, and I would say that the market really hasn't changed much at all for the elite players in the game. I'd say the market changed for middle-of-the-road veterans, and for older players near the ends of their careers, and for players coming off of major injuries. But for pitchers like Mark, I don't think the market has changed much at all. Top-end SP will always be at a premium.

 

It's funny how when pitchers with arm trouble can have a case made for them with age and stuff as the reasoning (Bedard, Harden, Sheets as examples) but then when there's a ton of innings it's something else. Isn't that a sign of durability? I argued this point last deadline over and over again about Halladay. Why is that inning total a bad thing? Is there a magic number where someone's arm is going to fall off or something? Because I don't see it. I see a durable guy who is a much safer bet than the majority of pitchers out there. Pitcher contracts are always a huge risk but you have to give them out. Mark is a guy who I'd feel comfortable giving an extension to.

 

I haven't looked at the numbers or anything, but I think Mark's FB velocity could be the result of a lot more cutters, and the pitch f/x people or whoever just count cutters as regular old 4-seam fastballs. And I really don't care, because there are pitchers who throw in the upper-90's all over the place who get lit the f*** up. If Mark had trouble locating his change-up then I'd be worried. Throwing 85 or 86 isn't supposed to be a good thing as it is, but Mark makes it work. There are more than a couple pitchers in the HOF who didn't have great FB velocity so I don't see why it makes any difference given Mark's track record.

 

As far as the point in investing money in Mark, why should that need to be explained? There is ALWAYS a point in investing in SP if you can afford it. Whether or not we can afford it will depend on how many fans are in the stadium when it comes time to work out that extension, and that all depends on what we do on the field.

 

Just my opinion, and we can agree to disagree on it. For what it's worth, I hope that Mark goes off this year, rescues this sinking ship of a team, and makes me look like a fool. But I'm not betting on it.

We'll have to agree to disagree on just about everything. And I definitely think it's far too early to look at midseason 2011. And I definitely do not think we're a sinking ship either.

[WCSox]

Why is that inning total a bad thing? Is there a magic number where someone's arm is going to fall off or something? Because I don't see it. I see a durable guy who is a much safer bet than the majority of pitchers out there. Pitcher contracts are always a huge risk but you have to give them out. Mark is a guy who I'd feel comfortable giving an extension to.

 

I haven't looked at the numbers or anything, but I think Mark's FB velocity could be the result of a lot more cutters

 

No, it's not. Mark routinely threw 89-91 five years ago. Now his four-seamer is more like 87-89. The year after the WS, it was more like 86. That's what age and heavy use do to a pitcher's arm. And while I won't argue that Mark's going to tear his labrum or rotator cuff any time soon, the risk obviously increases with increased use. And even if we accept the premise that Mark is the next Tom Glavine and his arm troubles won't manifest until his 40's, his arm strength and durability will, at best, diminish slightly as he approaches his mid-30s. Since it's unlikely that his command will improve significantly over that time (it can't get much better than it already is), it's difficult for me to believe that he's going to pitch any better than he has over the past three years. So we're looking at either more of the average of the past few years or a slight decline. And that's a best-case scenario.

 

There is ALWAYS a point in investing in SP if you can afford it. Whether or not we can afford it will depend on how many fans are in the stadium when it comes time to work out that extension, and that all depends on what we do on the field.

 

And there's the rub. Is Mark going to be affordable to a fourth-place team with a couple of expensive starting pitchers, good under-30 starting pitching, dwindling attendance, and a dire need for a couple of free-agent bats? On a team like the Yankees, probably. On the Sox, he very well may be the odd man out.

Edited May 5, 2010 by WCSox

[greg775]

When we have defenders like Teahen and Alexei's attention span, we need all the defensive help we can get by keeping the fielders alert and into the game 100% instead of daydreaming like they would when Jose or Vazquez were out there

 

How's Alexei's defense been this season so far? I'm in a streak where I haven't seen many games.

It has to be one of the worst sides of the infield defensively in the big leagues doesn't it?

[chisox2334]

Im just going to say this that twins are just that good this year. Some could say well look at who they have played. But, for right now twins are just that good winning every series.