KW issues ultimatum

[Jordan4life_2007]

That's a great defense of him. His record isn't though. If you make the safe assumption this year is going to end after 162, that's 8 seasons of 10 under him not in the playoffs, and the 9th saw us win a whopping 1 playoff game after narrowly taking a bad division. (And yes, I know he found a great batch of smoke and mirrors in 2005, I enjoyed it as much as everybody else. It's kept him and Ozzie employed for quite a while now.)

 

And what's your defense? "There's a lot of executives that could do better." Then, of course, you don't cite anybody. The GM is the least of my worries right now. Yeah, the two playoff appearances in 9 years is nothing to get loud about. But other than the Yankees and Red Sox, who have yearly payrolls that go above and beyond every other team, who have been the constants in the AL? Yeah, you've got the Angels. But that division has been bad, bad, bad for most of the last 7 years or so. I'm certainly not saying KW is perfect. But good luck coming up with a legitimate list of 5 GMs that could be had that could do a better job than KW.

[Milkman delivers]

Yeah, everybody knows Sox fans know better how to run a team than KW.

 

Well, they don't have to know better to "issue an ultimatum." Not going to games would be a way to do that, and it seems that the fans have already issued an ultimatum.

[Milkman delivers]

And what's your defense? "There's a lot of executives that could do better." Then, of course, you don't cite anybody. The GM is the least of my worries right now. Yeah, the two playoff appearances in 9 years is nothing to get loud about. But other than the Yankees and Red Sox, who have yearly payrolls that go above and beyond every other team, who have been the constants in the AL? Yeah, you've got the Angels. But that division has been bad, bad, bad for most of the last 7 years or so. I'm certainly not saying KW is perfect. But good luck coming up with a legitimate list of 5 GMs that could be had that could do a better job than KW.

 

The A's have been to the playoffs five times since 2000. The Twins, obviously, and it looks like the Rays will be a regular playoff fixture for a while. So, including the three teams you said and those three, you have six teams.

[SoxAce]

The A's have been to the playoffs five times since 2000. The Twins, obviously, and it looks like the Rays will be a regular playoff fixture for a while. So, including the three teams you said and those three, you have six teams.

 

Not to mention the Cardinals have been to the World Series twice (won one) and I think have 7 or 8 playoff appearances in the last 9 years or something like that.

 

The Marlins since that 03' W.S. championship, have had a winning record 4 of the last 6 years despite having one of the worst payrolls in the game. (their future is just as good with some of the prospects they got) And yes I realize they aren't AL teams, just wanted to change it up.

Edited May 11, 2010 by SoxAce

[Obama and Ozzie in 2012]

While I respect that KW doesn't want to hit the panic button too soon, it's pretty apparent that the Sox (1) don't have the talent to compete this year and (2) are poorly positioned for the next few years. There really aren't any impact prospects or young players in the entire organization, with the possible exceptions of John Danks, Beckham, and Mitchell. I think Beckham will bounce back, but even if all goes right for him, he will never be more than a Craig Biggio type player (I know, Biggio's a probable HOFer due to 3,000 hits, but he was never really an impact player, and not the guy you want to carry your team). Who knows how Mitchell will bounce back from the injury, although I'm still intrigued by his speed/power potential, and love that the Sox finally took a chance on a high ceiling draft pick. And I think Danks can be one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball for the next several years (of course, there's always a significant risk for overnight drop offs with pitchers). As for other prospects like Jordan Danks, Flowers, and the rest, I'm not too optimistic that any of them will ever develop into anything other than mediocre big leaguers.

 

To make things worse, I would put the Twins up with the Rays for having the best young core of major league or near major league talent in all of baseball. With Mauer, Morneau, and the new stadium cash, I think the Twins can go on an extended run of dominance in the Central, and with the lack of resources and reinforcements, it would be stupid of the Sox to keep applying band-aids in the form of under-the-radar or over-the-hill free agents and low ceiling minor leaguers. Instead, waive the white flag, reload the minors, take a beating for a few seasons, and prepare to take over when the Twins run is over (I know easier said than done). But I remember the lean years of the late '80's, and with good scouting and drafting, the organization minimized the damage and built a franchise that has been a consistent contender since 1990. I'd rather see an organization with a solid plan go through a couple of 90 loss seasons to quickly rebuild a long-time contender than watch an extended run of mediocrity.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Well, they don't have to know better to "issue an ultimatum." Not going to games would be a way to do that, and it seems that the fans have already issued an ultimatum.

 

Yes, because before this year the fans were showing up in droves. Our attendance has always been top-notch! GMAB.

 

The A's have been to the playoffs five times since 2000. The Twins, obviously, and it looks like the Rays will be a regular playoff fixture for a while. So, including the three teams you said and those three, you have six teams.

 

The A's have been to the playoffs 1 out of the last 5 years, including three consecutive years of at least 10 games below .500. The Twins have as many division titles as we do (and one less World Series title) in the last 5 years. And you don't get to add the Rays to you list because it "looks like" they'll be a regular playoff fixture.

 

Not to mention the Cardinals have been to the World Series twice (won one) and I think have 7 or 8 playoff appearances in the last 9 years or something like that.

 

I was specifically citing the AL. But yeah, the Cards are definitely there with the Red Sox and Yankees in terms of sustained success.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Jordan4life

[Jordan4life_2007]

Oh, and the title of this thread needs to be changed. KW didn't in any way shape, or form, issue an ultimatum.

[hogan873]

I don't think KW needs to be fired or threatened. He needs to be slapped for allowing Ozzie to convince him of the feasability of the rotating DH idea with Mark "Hot Wife" Kotsay being a key player! I think he would have gone harder after Damon or Matsui or some other bat if he hadn't been wowed with Ozzie's plan.

 

Now it may be too late.

[Balta1701]

I don't think KW needs to be fired or threatened. He needs to be slapped for allowing Ozzie to convince him of the feasability of the rotating DH idea with Mark "Hot Wife" Kotsay being a key player! I think he would have gone harder after Damon or Matsui or some other bat if he hadn't been wowed with Ozzie's plan.

 

Now it may be too late.

I keep harping on this but seriously I just can't figure out why people blame this season on the rotating DH spot. We've gotten solid production out of our DH (s), even with Kotsay not being very good, because we haven't rotated it all that much.

 

The problem continues to be...we came into this season counting on first and foremost Carlos Quentin to be a major run producer, and he hasn't done the job. We counted on Gordon Beckham to be at least another good hitter, and he hasn't done the job. We counted on AJ pierzynski to not be godawful and he hasn't done the job. We were hoping Alexei wouldn't get off to another slow start, and that hasn't happened.

 

Hypothetically, if we'd signed another DH like Matsui, you know what would have happened? Jones would have had fewer at bats, because either Jones would have played the field more and probably already gotten hurt, or Jones would have sat on the bench more. They weren't benching Quentin, he's too damn important. Pierre might have been benched more often, but all that does is put Jones up for more of an injury risk.

[hogan873]

I keep harping on this but seriously I just can't figure out why people blame this season on the rotating DH spot. We've gotten solid production out of our DH (s), even with Kotsay not being very good, because we haven't rotated it all that much.

 

The problem continues to be...we came into this season counting on first and foremost Carlos Quentin to be a major run producer, and he hasn't done the job. We counted on Gordon Beckham to be at least another good hitter, and he hasn't done the job. We counted on AJ pierzynski to not be godawful and he hasn't done the job. We were hoping Alexei wouldn't get off to another slow start, and that hasn't happened.

 

Hypothetically, if we'd signed another DH like Matsui, you know what would have happened? Jones would have had fewer at bats, because either Jones would have played the field more and probably already gotten hurt, or Jones would have sat on the bench more. They weren't benching Quentin, he's too damn important. Pierre might have been benched more often, but all that does is put Jones up for more of an injury risk.

I see your point, and I suppose I have to agree. I'm guilty of blaming the rotating DH thing because, like many fans, I had an idea that it would fail. And I still say it failed. Jones has been a nice surprise, but there are still too many games where Kotsay and/or Vizquel are in the starting lineup. Let's say the Sox had signed Damon or Matsui...there'd be no use for Kotsay, and maybe Pierre would have ridden the bench more.

 

I don't know. It's all hindsight at this point. But you are right about Quentin, AJ, Beckham, and Alexei.

[LittleHurt05]

I keep harping on this but seriously I just can't figure out why people blame this season on the rotating DH spot. We've gotten solid production out of our DH (s), even with Kotsay not being very good, because we haven't rotated it all that much.

 

The problem continues to be...we came into this season counting on first and foremost Carlos Quentin to be a major run producer, and he hasn't done the job. We counted on Gordon Beckham to be at least another good hitter, and he hasn't done the job. We counted on AJ pierzynski to not be godawful and he hasn't done the job. We were hoping Alexei wouldn't get off to another slow start, and that hasn't happened.

 

Hypothetically, if we'd signed another DH like Matsui, you know what would have happened? Jones would have had fewer at bats, because either Jones would have played the field more and probably already gotten hurt, or Jones would have sat on the bench more. They weren't benching Quentin, he's too damn important. Pierre might have been benched more often, but all that does is put Jones up for more of an injury risk.

 

Actually thats not 100% true looking at the stats, but your second point is a main reason for this.

 

Our DH spot has produced a line of .203/.290/.317, not including 3 pinch hitters.

 

Jones has started 9 games at DH and hit .241.

Pierre has been DH 6 games and hit .296, much better than when he plays the field. (Let's not mention his SLG%.)

CQ has 8 starts at DH, with a .138 BA. The rotating DH was supposed to help him play less in the field and stay healthier, but it hasn't helped his bat at all.

Kotsay is rocking a .059 BA in his 6 DH starts too.

 

But as you said, with another DH, Jones doesn't play as much, which keeps him from putting up the numbers he has so far, which are much better than Matsuis. CQ would be trotted out there everyday no matter what, as would Pierre as Ozzie's leadoff hitter.

[Balta1701]

I see your point, and I suppose I have to agree. I'm guilty of blaming the rotating DH thing because, like many fans, I had an idea that it would fail. And I still say it failed. Jones has been a nice surprise, but there are still too many games where Kotsay and/or Vizquel are in the starting lineup. Let's say the Sox had signed Damon or Matsui...there'd be no use for Kotsay, and maybe Pierre would have ridden the bench more.

 

I don't know. It's all hindsight at this point. But you are right about Quentin, AJ, Beckham, and Alexei.

Kotsay is in the starting lineup fairly often for 1 reason...he's an adequate backup defensively for a guy who we legitimately need to give some extra time off to...the Major league home run leader. If Konerko gets extra days off, so that he avoids things like stiff necks...I can't complain, even if the guy we're replacing him with is a career .250 hitter with little power. Things like that happen.

 

Vizquel...well, everyone knew he was going to play too much and hit too high in the order. But again...there's a reason why we keep seeing him...because Beckham has been Beckrap and Alexei has been just as bad.

 

I can't find myself getting too worked up over the guy hitting .100 in the 2 hole...because he's replacing a guy hitting .143 in his last 76 plate appearances in that very spot.

 

If Quentin, Alexei, AJ, Beckham, and Pierre were at least being average hitters right now, we might well be only a couple games behind the Twins, and then we could legitimately be caring about why Kotsay is getting so many at bats, or why Vizquel is replacing a guy hitting so much better than him so often. But with 5 gaping holes in our lineup...I can't get worked up about the backups, because crappy backups aren't the problem when the regulars are just as bad.

[kitekrazy]

I don't think KW needs to be fired or threatened. He needs to be slapped for allowing Ozzie to convince him of the feasability of the rotating DH idea with Mark "Hot Wife" Kotsay being a key player! I think he would have gone harder after Damon or Matsui or some other bat if he hadn't been wowed with Ozzie's plan.

 

Now it may be too late.

 

 

Kenny and Jerry liked because it saves $$$$.

[Balta1701]

Kenny and Jerry liked because it saves $$$$.

Yeah, that's the problem with this team. If only they'd spent more money...how dare they go after cheap options like Jones at the DH spot.

[southsider2k5]

When do Sox fans get to give Kenny Williams the ultimatum??

 

 

Every day. Stop buying tickets. Stop watching games. Stop talking about the team.

[Milkman delivers]

Yes, because before this year the fans were showing up in droves. Our attendance has always been top-notch! GMAB.

 

 

 

The A's have been to the playoffs 1 out of the last 5 years, including three consecutive years of at least 10 games below .500. The Twins have as many division titles as we do (and one less World Series title) in the last 5 years. And you don't get to add the Rays to you list because it "looks like" they'll be a regular playoff fixture.

 

 

 

I was specifically citing the AL. But yeah, the Cards are definitely there with the Red Sox and Yankees in terms of sustained success.

 

Ha, sorry I used the length of Williams' tenure as a GM to show how 5 other AL teams have been to the playoffs more often and consistently than his teams. Oh, and I can't use the Rays? That's just nitpicking because they are obviously a much better team than the White Sox now and going forward, but I'll accept that. That still leaves 5 teams just in our league.

[Milkman delivers]

Every day. Stop buying tickets. Stop watching games. Stop talking about the team.

 

Exactly what I said.

[hogan873]

Yeah, that's the problem with this team. If only they'd spent more money...how dare they go after cheap options like Jones at the DH spot.

I'm going to have to go ahead and sort of disagree with you there. Seriously, though, Jones wasn't signed to be "the" DH for this team. He was supposed to be part of a rotating crap-a-rama that the mere though of made many fans physically ill. As I mentioned before, Jones has been a nice surprise, but he's the only thing about the rotating DH position that has worked.

 

We can argue all day and night about what a real DH would or would not have done for this team, and we can probably all agree that without some others (I'm looking at you Quentin, AJ, Alexei, and Beckham) picking it up, it wouldn't have mattered too much who was the DH. But, you can't discount the fact that the Sox took the less expensive, and less sure, route at the DH spot. And it has NOT paid off.

[fathom]

Kotsay is in the starting lineup fairly often for 1 reason...he's an adequate backup defensively for a guy who we legitimately need to give some extra time off to...the Major league home run leader. If Konerko gets extra days off, so that he avoids things like stiff necks...I can't complain, even if the guy we're replacing him with is a career .250 hitter with little power. Things like that happen.

 

Vizquel...well, everyone knew he was going to play too much and hit too high in the order. But again...there's a reason why we keep seeing him...because Beckham has been Beckrap and Alexei has been just as bad.

 

I can't find myself getting too worked up over the guy hitting .100 in the 2 hole...because he's replacing a guy hitting .143 in his last 76 plate appearances in that very spot.

 

If Quentin, Alexei, AJ, Beckham, and Pierre were at least being average hitters right now, we might well be only a couple games behind the Twins, and then we could legitimately be caring about why Kotsay is getting so many at bats, or why Vizquel is replacing a guy hitting so much better than him so often. But with 5 gaping holes in our lineup...I can't get worked up about the backups, because crappy backups aren't the problem when the regulars are just as bad.

 

I agree...it was a team that needed a lot of "Ifs" to come true in order to really compete with a very strong Twins team. Sometimes, it's just not your year. Now, it's up to KW and Ozzie to do whatever they can to make positives come from this season, which includes finding your closer of the future, getting Beckham back on track, seeing what you have in Quentin, and possibly getting a look at guys like Flowers, Hudson, etc.

[kitekrazy]

So does this happen to other major league teams that are supposedly good to have many hitter slump at the same time? Or does this happen only in Chicago? They got the same thing happening on the other side of town and they are suppose to have a really good hitting coach.

[fathom]

So does this happen to other major league teams that are supposedly good to have many hitter slump at the same time? Or does this happen only in Chicago? They got the same thing happening on the other side of town and they are suppose to have a really good hitting coach.

 

Um, they have two hitters struggling (just so happen to be their two main guys, one of which has a bum shoulder). The rest of their offense is hitting above .300.

[kitekrazy]

I agree...it was a team that needed a lot of "Ifs" to come true in order to really compete with a very strong Twins team.

 

Yep. We really shouldn't be that disappointed. The team didn't get younger either.

 

[southsider2k5]

Exactly what I said.

 

That's the great part of being a fan. You control the message to the team.

[Chisoxfn]

The only thing I can really rip Kenny on is his short-sightedness when it comes to player development. We just haven't spend near enough in terms of international free agents and on the draft. Quite frankly it is an absolute mismanaged joke, especially for a team that spends as much as the Sox do on payroll a year.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Ha, sorry I used the length of Williams' tenure as a GM to show how 5 other AL teams have been to the playoffs more often and consistently than his teams. Oh, and I can't use the Rays? That's just nitpicking because they are obviously a much better team than the White Sox now and going forward, but I'll accept that. That still leaves 5 teams just in our league.

 

If you choose to go all the way back to 2001 to make a point, then go ahead. I think 5 years is a good cutoff to evaluate what a GM has done of late.

 

2005: 'nuff said.

 

2006: On paper, team was better than 2005. 57-31 at the all-star break. I'm certainly not blaming Kenny for the second half collapse.

 

2007: Kenny gets some blame here. Didn't really upgrade the team from the previous year. And that bullpen experiment failed miserably.

 

2008: KW deserves more credit here than for 2005. Brought in the almost ROY and MVP. Two bold trades that brought in Danks/Floyd the previous year paid major dividends.

 

2009: 50/50 here. The roster that ended the season was much better than the roster that began the season. The division was there for the taking. And the team didn't get it done.

 

2010: TBD.

 

I'm just fine with KW as our GM.