7.5 games back.

[greg775]

I agree Caufield, the question is what will we get in return?

If we get s*** plus money, that's no good.

[caulfield12]

No team will take Mark Buehrle this year. If he's traded, he makes $15 mil this year, and $15 mil in 2011 and 2012. The Sox have him at $14 mil this year and 2011, and then he'll probably sign with the Cardinals, for a true hometown discount. Quite frankly, I think by the time 2012 comes around we'll be ok with Mark moving on.

 

They might have to kick in $2-3-5 million, but every contract in baseball is moveable if there's a will.

 

FWIW Freddy Garcia or Danks or Peavy would make more sense for STL, sure.

Edited May 15, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

So Balta, you know for a fact that the Phillies paid Thome's contract for his "option year."

 

Where is this reported?

 

Because officially, it was $12-13 million, yes? At least on our payroll, it certainly looked that way.

 

Why would the team have been concerned in 2008 about his 2009 option kicking in if they didn't have to pay his salary, Pat Gillick's "secret" handshake agreement did the trick?

Huh?

[caulfield12]

Huh?

 

Maybe I misunderstood your post. (What savings from Thome and Dye? Dye never left, and Thome they saved about $1 million from.)

 

It seemed like you were saying Thome didn't cost us that much money last year (obviously Andruw and Kotsay are cheaper, that's given).

 

Okay, now I get it, you were talking about 2007 I guess?

Edited May 15, 2010 by caulfield12

[spiderman]

As a White Sox fan, I'm pretty depressed. It's May 15th, and this team is done. I never thought it was possible to bury yourself this quickly, but they have, and this is just not a good team.

 

Our minor league system, from my understanding, is getting better, but is hardly elite, and this major league team needs a drastic overhauling of it's offense.

[Balta1701]

Maybe I misunderstood your post. (What savings from Thome and Dye? Dye never left, and Thome they saved about $1 million from.)

 

It seemed like you were saying Thome didn't cost us that much money last year (obviously Andruw and Kotsay are cheaper, that's given).

 

Okay, now I get it, you were talking about 2007 I guess?

Look at the original post...it said "look what they did with the savings from Thome and Dye"

 

I interpreted this as meaning "whatever money they saved by dealing Thome and Dye last year, they turned into Vizquel and Kotsay, so they're not likely to do anything even if they do save money by trading people".

 

My response was...They saved about $1 million by trading Thome...and they didn't ever trade Dye, so it makes no sense to talk about savings from him.

 

Trading AJ for nothing except contract savings right now would save $4-5 million or so. That's a lot more than we saved by deadling Thome and Contreras last year.

[Dick Allen]

Look at the original post...it said "look what they did with the savings from Thome and Dye"

 

I interpreted this as meaning "whatever money they saved by dealing Thome and Dye last year, they turned into Vizquel and Kotsay, so they're not likely to do anything even if they do save money by trading people".

 

My response was...They saved about $1 million by trading Thome...and they didn't ever trade Dye, so it makes no sense to talk about savings from him.

 

Trading AJ for nothing except contract savings right now would save $4-5 million or so. That's a lot more than we saved by deadling Thome and Contreras last year.

I think the poster's original point was the Sox got out from under the Dye and Thome contracts,( and Contreras too), each was making $10 million plus, they upped the payroll and look what they have to show for it. Its not like dumping bad contracts is any guarantee the Sox will then spend their "available" money wisely.

 

This past winter JR and Brooks Boyer both said the White Sox had money available to add a "significant" hitter. I have no idea what they are waiting for.

[Balta1701]

I think the poster's original point was the Sox got out from under the Dye and Thome contracts,( and Contreras too), each was making $10 million plus, they upped the payroll and look what they have to show for it. Its not like dumping bad contracts is any guarantee the Sox will then spend their "available" money wisely.

 

This past winter JR and Brooks Boyer both said the White Sox had money available to add a "significant" hitter. I have no idea what they are waiting for.

If the Sox were anticipating having money for a significant hitter...that money could be evaporating with the walkup ticket sales.

 

What they have to show for those guys is Rios and Peavy. I think I'm pretty satisfied with what we have to show from those 2 guys, especially now that JFP's found his grove.

 

We should be back to complaining about the 2007 season and how the 2 key things that we brought in after it, Beckham and Quentin, have been debacles.

[southsider2k5]

Clearing payroll isn't the answer either. Look what they did with the savings from Thome and Dye. It's the philosophy that needs to be changed.

 

I don't know what they were doing picking up Peavy and Rios.

[spiderman]

If the Sox were anticipating having money for a significant hitter...that money could be evaporating with the walkup ticket sales.

 

What they have to show for those guys is Rios and Peavy. I think I'm pretty satisfied with what we have to show from those 2 guys, especially now that JFP's found his grove.

 

We should be back to complaining about the 2007 season and how the 2 key things that we brought in after it, Beckham and Quentin, have been debacles.

 

Even though the starting pitching hasn't been what we thought - only John Danks has been consistently good, it's clear that it's very hard to win with an offense that is the problem. Noboby thought that A.J. would be hitting .200 or that Gordon Beckham would play his way out of the major leagues, but there have been plenty of questions about Teahan and Pierre as off-season acquistions. We knew Quentin was still a question mark - we were hoping for the MVP Candidate (or something in that ballpark) and not the guy who can't hit since. Obviously, Rios and Konerko have been extremely productive, but they can't overcome a lineup that has given very little overall.

[Dick Allen]

If the Sox were anticipating having money for a significant hitter...that money could be evaporating with the walkup ticket sales.

 

What they have to show for those guys is Rios and Peavy. I think I'm pretty satisfied with what we have to show from those 2 guys, especially now that JFP's found his grove.

 

We should be back to complaining about the 2007 season and how the 2 key things that we brought in after it, Beckham and Quentin, have been debacles.

Peavy is coming around, but he has been somewhat of a debacle this year as well. So has Floyd and Buehrle. Everyone mentions the lack of offense. The White Sox had ample opportunity to add offense this past offseason, yet passed. Now they are looking for offense. They can wait the proverbial 60 games to realize they don't have enough, but it may be too late by then. Its time JR, KW and OG realized they need better hitters and get better hitters to Chicago ASAP. Status quo isn't going to work. There's no guarantee Rios will keep hitting like he's been hitting. There's no guarantee Jones has found the fountain of youth, as a matter of fact, his stats this season are eerily similar to his stats last season after 110 AB. Beckham and Quentin will eventually hit. Ramirez will hit. They are still going to need more if they want to win a championship. If the goal is to be within 6 or 7 games of winning the AL Central so you can sell that the next season, they might as well stand pat, but a personnel move or 2 is overdue.

 

 

[BigSqwert]

Makes me wonder why they didn't move the fences back 5 or 10 feet in the off season. It would have helped our strength, pitching, while being also better suited for a quicker lineup than in recent years. It definitely would have helped hitters like Pierre.

Edited May 15, 2010 by BigSqwert

[WCSox]

The White Sox had ample opportunity to add offense this past offseason, yet passed. Now they are looking for offense. They can wait the proverbial 60 games to realize they don't have enough, but it may be too late by then. Its time JR, KW and OG realized they need better hitters and get better hitters to Chicago ASAP. Status quo isn't going to work

 

This most likely has more to do with what JR and the Board of Directors are willing to spend at this point than bad philosophy. As I've been saying for over a year now, they're not going to continue investing $95M+ in a third-place team with declining gate revenue.

 

It's still a little early to seriously consider a firesale, but PK and AJP are the most likely candidates if they decide to go that route. And it's very possible that they keep PK and give him a contract extension. It's not like there will be anybody else in-house to replace his production next year.

 

[Balta1701]

Peavy is coming around, but he has been somewhat of a debacle this year as well. So has Floyd and Buehrle. Everyone mentions the lack of offense. The White Sox had ample opportunity to add offense this past offseason, yet passed. Now they are looking for offense. They can wait the proverbial 60 games to realize they don't have enough, but it may be too late by then. Its time JR, KW and OG realized they need better hitters and get better hitters to Chicago ASAP. Status quo isn't going to work. There's no guarantee Rios will keep hitting like he's been hitting. There's no guarantee Jones has found the fountain of youth, as a matter of fact, his stats this season are eerily similar to his stats last season after 110 AB. Beckham and Quentin will eventually hit. Ramirez will hit. They are still going to need more if they want to win a championship. If the goal is to be within 6 or 7 games of winning the AL Central so you can sell that the next season, they might as well stand pat, but a personnel move or 2 is overdue.

The problem though continues to not be the positions where we would have brought anyone else end. It's the positions where we were hoping to have a solid player. RF, 2b, C, SS.

[Dick Allen]

The problem though continues to not be the positions where we would have brought anyone else end. It's the positions where we were hoping to have a solid player. RF, 2b, C, SS.

DH is a huge problem. The rotating DH has been a total failure. The White Sox need to be a little quicker admitting to their mistakes and fix them, unless they are ready to call it a season. Maybe it seems like an overreaction but an unnamed beat writer called the White Sox clubhouse dead. If they don't try something different, a couple weeks from now they will be basically playing out the string. As much as Thome was hated, he's better than the below .200 BA below .300 OBP below .600 OPS the White Sox DH position has brought this season. There is no doubt in my mind Quentin, Beckham, AJP, and Ramirez will improve offensively. The scary thing is where would the Sox be had Konerko, Rios and Jones started off badly as well? Those 3 will most likely slow down a bit.

[WCSox]

DH is a huge problem. The rotating DH has been a total failure.

 

Vizquel and Kotsay certainly have been. Then again, the rotating DH has also allowed Jones to have 111 PAs and has kept Kotsay out of the outfield for 10 games.

 

I agree that the rotating DH is a stupid idea, but it's difficult to call it a "total failure" with the season that Jones is having.

 

[Dick Allen]

Vizquel and Kotsay certainly have been. Then again, the rotating DH has also allowed Jones to have 111 PAs and has kept Kotsay out of the outfield for 10 games.

 

I agree that the rotating DH is a stupid idea, but it's difficult to call it a "total failure" with the season that Jones is having.

 

About 80 of Jones PA have been as an OF. The Sox DH's have 12 RBI, with 6 coming in one game. (Quentin) The problem with this rotating DH is you are always playing someone who isn't hitting at all. If you aren't used to it, DHing isn't a very easy adjustment for everyone.

 

They need offense. They can be stubborn and refuse to admit they are wrong and watch the season and the fanbase melt away or they can do something about it. Its time.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Balta1701]

DH is a huge problem. The rotating DH has been a total failure.

The Sox have gotten better production out of the 2 guys brought into be the backup platoon DH than I expected, mainly because of Jones.

 

The problem has been...when Jones plays, they've been putting Quentin or Pierre at DH, and until the last 2 weeks Pierre wasn't hitting, and Quentin isn't hitting at all.

 

The rotation Dh would be putting up stellar numbers...if Carlos Quentin was hitting at all.

[Dick Allen]

The Sox have gotten better production out of the 2 guys brought into be the backup platoon DH than I expected, mainly because of Jones.

 

The problem has been...when Jones plays, they've been putting Quentin or Pierre at DH, and until the last 2 weeks Pierre wasn't hitting, and Quentin isn't hitting at all.

 

The rotation Dh would be putting up stellar numbers...if Carlos Quentin was hitting at all.

Kotsay has 1 hit as a DH. Jones is hitting .258 as a DH. Quentin hasn't hit well but does have 7 of the 12 RBI as the DH and he isn't even about 1/3 of his AB. You can say Jones has been better than expected, it still doesn't answer why the Sox did not go out and get another bat. Ozzie thought the offense was fine. KW went with it. 2 huge mistakes. Quentin is 4-34 with 1 hr and 7 rbi as a DH. If he were 9-34 I really don't think the overall DH numbers become stellar, and perhaps one reason he isn't hitting is because he's the DH. Again, a lot of players have trouble adjusting to being a DH. Even Frank Thomas. The whole rotating DH thing is just another toy that Ozzie doesn't need to be playing with. Having a defender the ilk of Teahen playing 3B last night so Omar Vizquel can DH is a joke.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Dick Allen

[WCSox]

About 80 of Jones PA have been as an OF.

 

Given that Quentin is made of glass and that Pierre isn't hitting, I don't see that as a negative. I'd much rather that Jones spell these guys than Kotsay.

 

They need offense. They can be stubborn and refuse to admit they are wrong and watch the season and the fanbase melt away or they can do something about it. Its time.

 

Going out and getting one bat isn't going to change anything. Hell, not going out and getting TWO bats probably won't turn them into contenders, either. Not with Beckham, AJ, and Pierre not hitting. And not with Floyd, and Jenks consistently crapping their pants, and Buehrle and Peavy being wildly-erratic. Trading for somebody like Matsui at the deadline would cost them money and not deliver what they're looking for. Kind of like last summer, but not nearly as severe.

 

If the Sox are still playing like this a year from now, it's going to be time for some MAJOR changes. That would mean selling off guys like Peavy and Buehrle for high-level prospects, bringing up Hudson, Flowers, and D2 and, perhaps most importantly, tossing out the coaching staff (minus Cooper).

 

 

[Balta1701]

Kotsay has 1 hit as a DH. Jones is hitting .258 as a DH. Quentin hasn't hit well but does have 7 of the 12 RBI as the DH and he isn't even about 1/3 of his AB. You can say Jones has been better than expected, it still doesn't answer why the Sox did not go out and get another bat. Ozzie thought the offense was fine. KW went with it. 2 huge mistakes. Quentin is 4-34 with 1 hr and 7 rbi as a DH. If he were 9-34 I really don't think the overall DH numbers become stellar, and perhaps one reason he isn't hitting is because he's the DH. Again, a lot of players have trouble adjusting to being a DH. Even Frank Thomas. The whole rotating DH thing is just another toy that Ozzie doesn't need to be playing with. Having a defender the ilk of Teahen playing 3B last night so Omar Vizquel can DH is a joke.

Bah, the idea of putting some of these guys part time at DH still doesn't bother me. Konerko could benefit from some time there as well. If Quentin can't handle being a DH mentally, then he ought to start hitting while he's in the field.

 

I'll totally agree with you though. The concept of Vizquel as DH is pathetic and inexcusable. And we all knew coming into the season it would happen, and it'll probably happen more from here.

[Balta1701]

It's also worth pointing out that there was no guarantee that the other options out there as DH would be doing that well either. Matsui, for example, has a .716 OPS, which is only good in comparison to Quentin or Kotsay.

[caulfield12]

It's also worth pointing out that there was no guarantee that the other options out there as DH would be doing that well either. Matsui, for example, has a .716 OPS, which is only good in comparison to Quentin or Kotsay.

 

Brent Lillibridge has a 700+ OPS with Charlotte.

 

When (OR IF) we start talking about replacing Pierre or Beckham with Lillibridge, that's when we'll know the season is pretty much unofficially over.

Edited May 15, 2010 by caulfield12

[Balta1701]

Brent Lillibridge has a 700+ OPS with Charlotte.

 

When (OR IF) we start talking about replacing Pierre or Beckham with Lillibridge, that's when we'll know the season is pretty much unofficially over.

I think that the season would be well over beyond that point. Even if we did a full fire sale, Lillibridge is going to be behind Beckham, Ramirez, Morel, Viciedo, probably the struggling CJ, and a few other people.

[southsider2k5]

It's also worth pointing out that there was no guarantee that the other options out there as DH would be doing that well either. Matsui, for example, has a .716 OPS, which is only good in comparison to Quentin or Kotsay.

 

We could also throw in Nick Johnson who is hurt and hit awfully this year.