What are the positives of today?

[caulfield12]

I read through the game thread, it's funny, I guess I was meant to fall asleep and wake up and not go through the agony...last I could remember, it was a 6-5 lead after Pierre's HBP and then Pena had pitched through the 8th with the lead intact.

 

At any rate:

 

1) It will be nice to see what Thornton, Putz and Santos can do in high leverage situations...even Pena, who was solid today. If Putz becomes a solid closer again, then we can shop him for something really nice at the ASB. He has the pedigree. I just think, right now, in his return from surgery, his stuff isn't quite there yet, he's around 85-90%. And, as much as I want it, they're right to baby Santos and protect him as much as possible, carefully selecting him for situations he's most suitable for. Still, you'd like to see his responsibilities grow, something like a RH version of Thornton, or maybe another comparison is Zumaya, that you use any time in the 6th-8th to get crucial outs against the other teams' best hitters.

 

2) Alex Rios has proven he's perhaps the most talented overall player on the team and his contract won't be an albatross to this teams' financial future. Peavy has done the same, the concerns about an injury, mechanics or his "missing" stuff are long gone.

 

3) Right now, if I was KW, I would make a full-court press on Jon Danks to get him to sign a long-term extension into his first year of Free Agency. If he absolutely refuses to sign, then you shop him carefully the next 2-3 months and you trade him if you can get a HUGE package in return. Otherwise, you just hold onto him into 2011. This team is too far off offensively to be "fixed" in the next year or so, which is why KW will have to consider long-term benefits of trading Danks, Peavy and Buehrle to set up a dominant team for future contention that can stay together 4-6 years. You also have to consider that it's unlikely we'll have Andruw Jones back, either he'll fall off a cliff, become injured, non-perform or price himself out of Chicago.

 

4) I would absoulutely think about sending Beckham and Ramirez down to Charlotte to play together everyday in a stress-free environment. As Beckham said it best, "just be a player that's fun to watch," remember why you fell in love with baseball and go back to being the player we all know you can become. Maybe it's not Chase Utley, but it's a 3-5 time all-star and very solid contributor with "plus" offensive skills at that position.

 

With that move, I'd play Nix at 2B and Vizquel at SS everyday, with Brent Lillibridge up as the replacement and giving Vizquel a rest whenever he asked Ozzie for a day off. We don't have a SS close to being ready, Escobar is the nearest, so maybe you'd even bring Hudson (basically he's just filler) up.

 

In fact, now that I think about it, my move would be Lillibridge and Shelby III. I would let John play some OF and 2B. Lillibridge could back up 2B/SS. I'd really like to see if Shelby can play or not at the next level. And he has the versatility to play multiple positions, like Lillibridge, both IF and OF. We actually increase our team speed with this move too, and our ability to manufacture some runs is enhanced.

 

In the end, I would also consider CJ Retherford in the mix with Lillibridge, Hudson and Shelby III, and defer to Buddy Bell and Chris Chambliss on the two replacements for Ramirez and Beckham while they're getting their acts together at Charlotte.

 

5) Teahen plays everyday until he proves he's either part of our long-term plans for 2011 or he's just a glorified utility player. He plays against LHP and RHP, and only sits once or twice a month, no matter how poorly he's doing. If he completely tanks, Morel comes up to replace him in September.

 

6) We start a marketing campaign to let every GM know that Konerko, Putz, Linebrink, Kotsay, Freddy Garcia, Castro, AJ, Jenks, Andruw Jones, Pierre, etc., are available for the best offer. White Sox "E-Bay" we'll call it. We even start listening to offers on Danks, Buehrle and Peavy if KW is blown away.

 

7) Floyd has to stay until he figures things out, he's one of the few cost "certainties" going forward with our rotation.

 

8) AJ is traded and you either play Castro everyday (marketing him up for trade) or you give the job to Flowers when you feel he's ready...perhaps in the second half of this season, perhaps in 2011, Opening Day. By playing Castro, you still keep your options open in case you think Flowers figures in more as a 1B/DH.

 

9) Quentin has the remainder of this year to play everyday and prove he can be both healthy AND productive at RF/DH.

 

10) Over time, you start filtering in Hudson (say Garcia is traded), Flowers, Jordan Danks, Viciedo, Morel, Gartrell, Shelby III, Santeliz, etc., depending on need.

 

11) KW and JR write a very long, heartfelt letter to season ticket holders and ChiSox fans in general asking for their faith and patience that things can be turned around...Ozzie Guillen and Greg Walker resign at season's end, but are not fired. Frank Thomas becomes hitting coach the first day of the offseason.

Edited May 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[joeynach]

Its prolly becoming more and more obvious that the sox should not extend Jenks no should they probably look to bring him back for $8M in 2011. He simply is NOT A SHUT DOWN closer. He gets saves, but seems to always play with fire before getting a save, and as a result things like todays blowup are bound to happen again.

[Dick Allen]

Quentin looked better today. Maybe the Sox finally see Jenks makes everything way too interesting. This was a tough game to lose, the Sox actually played pretty well and scored some runs off a pitcher who has been tough this year. They finally played a game that wasn't boring in front of a large crowd, but with a bad result.

Edited May 9, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Wanne]

4) I would absoulutely think about sending Beckham and Ramirez down to Charlotte to play together everyday in a stress-free environment.

 

Kinda hard to send half you infield down isn't it?!? That would be an admission of Epic. Failure!

[ThunderBolt]

Nix looked pretty good out at 3b, worked some great ab's. It looks like in the event of a Beckham demotion he won't carry the team, but he might not sink it.

[caulfield12]

Not only that, but it'd be nice to see what we have with Nix. He's nice back-up insurance (along w/ Morel) for Teahen or could serve as part of a platoon FWIW. Or just trade bait. Some will argue CJ Retherford over Nix, but it's not merited by CJ's hitting in Charlotte this year, and Retherford doesn't have a "home" position defensively that he plays well.

 

As far as Jenks, he's only had two outings the entire first six weeks of the season where he didn't give up a hit or walk. Both, of course, were in non-save, non-pressure situations.

Edited May 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

Kinda hard to send half you infield down isn't it?!? That would be an admission of Epic. Failure!

 

But it's necessary.

 

Both of these guys have to play like All-Stars in order for the White Sox to be able to compete in this division. They're not even close right now.

 

I think if we kept them together, it would work to their benefit, in the long-term. They wouldn't feel "picked on" or scapegoated as much by the organization if it was "sold" to them in the correct, patient way that Guillen has demonstrated so far with Beckham.

 

Ramirez, perhaps it's time for the FO to take the gloves off and show him a little "tough love" instead of babying and praising him so much. Ozzie has already called him out for "moping" and hanging his head so much in 2009.

Edited May 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[Dick Allen]

Not only that, but it'd be nice to see what we have with Nix. He's nice back-up insurance (along w/ Morel) for Teahen or could serve as part of a platoon FWIW. Or just trade bait. Some will argue CJ Retherford over Nix, but it's not merited by CJ's hitting in Charlotte this year, and Retherford doesn't have a "home" position defensively that he plays well.

 

As far as Jenks, he's only had two outings the entire first six weeks of the season where he didn't give up a hit or walk. Both, of course, were in non-save, non-pressure situations.

Jenks needs to be replaced until he shows he can get people out regularly again. Shingo was 8 for 9 in save opportunities with a 5.97 ERA in 2005 when he not only lost his closer's job, he lost his job.

[Dick Allen]

But it's necessary.

 

Both of these guys have to play like All-Stars in order for the White Sox to be able to compete in this division. They're not even close right now.

 

I think if we kept them together, it would work to their benefit, in the long-term. They wouldn't feel "picked on" or scapegoated as much by the organization if it was "sold" to them in the correct, patient way that Guillen has demonstrated so far with Beckham.

 

Ramirez, perhaps it's time for the FO to take the gloves off and show him a little "tough love" instead of babying and praising him so much. Ozzie has already called him out for "moping" and hanging his head so much in 2009.

 

I thought Omar was going to take him under his wing and Alexei was going to take off? Vizquel is perhaps the biggest waste of a roster spot since Andy Gonzalez.

 

[maggsmaggs]

There is no reason Jenks should be closing anymore. Your best reliever should be the closer and it ain't close who the best one on this team is. He also happens to be one of the top ten in all of baseball. 0.72 WHIP and a 25 to 3 K to BB ratio is simply ridiculous. Meanwhile Jenks is being hit off of at a .400 rate.

Edited May 9, 2010 by maggsmaggs

[caulfield12]

I think they go Putz first.

 

Number 1, he's a former closer.

Number 2, he doesn't force Williams into a 7th/8th inning guy or someone who's even more overextended

Number 3, we want to market Putz as a closer to get the best possible return in value via trade at mid-season

 

Number 4, we don't have any desire to deal Thornton...and his value comes down a bit if he fails as a closer (still, he'd be the favorite for the job after a Putz trade, along with Santos in the "wings")

 

Still, if you're heading into the 9th with a lead and there are two lefties coming up or Mauer/Morneau is leading off, you won't see Putz or Santos, it will logically be Thornton

Edited May 9, 2010 by caulfield12

[iamshack]

Nix looked pretty good out at 3b, worked some great ab's. It looks like in the event of a Beckham demotion he won't carry the team, but he might not sink it.

Hah, you crack me up with your admiration for Nixy..it's good though, I like positives.

 

The problem with Nix is HE CAN'T HIT RIGHTIES. Remember that!

[scenario]

Can't even think about sending Alexei down to AAA.

 

Just look at his career splits.

 

He sucks in April and plays much better after. It's night and day.

 

Sending him down would accomplish nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

[chw42]

Quentin and Rios, that's about it.

[caulfield12]

Scenario, does it really matter to this team if Alexei plays in Charlotte or Chicago?

 

Beckham needs to go down, and soon.

 

Why not keep them together? I'm not saying DON'T care about winning games anymore, of course, but without Beckham and Quentin, it doesn't matter if Alexei hits like he did from mid-May through August, 2008.

 

How has he shown improvement in any facet of the game? He's not walking as much, his baserunning is in shambles (how can he have only ONE steal when Andruw Jones has six?), his defense is super spotty and he would have the chance to play with Gordon everyday in real game situations.

 

I KNOW it won't happen because Ozzie loves Ramirez too much, but it should IMO.

[iamshack]

Scenario, does it really matter to this team if Alexei plays in Charlotte or Chicago?

 

Beckham needs to go down, and soon.

 

Why not keep them together? I'm not saying DON'T care about winning games anymore, of course, but without Beckham and Quentin, it doesn't matter if Alexei hits like he did from mid-May through August, 2008.

 

How has he shown improvement in any facet of the game? He's not walking as much, his baserunning is in shambles (how can he have only ONE steal when Andruw Jones has six?), his defense is super spotty and he would have the chance to play with Gordon everyday in real game situations.

 

I KNOW it won't happen because Ozzie loves Ramirez too much, but it should IMO.

Well as much as Q has sucked at time this year, he is on pace for 100 RBI....let's not pretend he is a black hole out there.

 

I'm of the belief that if Alexei gets going, along with Rios and now maybe Q, we can win plenty of games even without Gordo hitting very well. We are starting to see some offense from this team...we just need to get the pen straightened out a bit (Jenks removed as closer, Santos used more often and effectively, maybe even as closer).

[caulfield12]

Still, those RBI stats for CQ will even out and a 716 OPS from a corner outfielder with bottom quartile defensive ability won't work.

 

He's got to be an 850-925 OPS player to be an asset for this team, or we would be better off with Jermaine Dye in RF.

[stretchstretch]

excellent post, and at the same time, probably making me the most depressed I've been as a Sox fan since October 2005.

 

to realize that in 4.5 yrs this organization took the opportunity of the century, literally, and let it go so far south on top 5-10 payrolls every year is just so hard to take. with all the hope coming into this year, to have nearly the worst case scenario playout for nearly all the question mark players is simply put, crushing.

 

from GM, to owner, to manager, to player by player, in total free fall, to the point we're now talking about preparing to come back in 3+ years for an organization that fought through so much to overcome second class status in Chicago and nationally, and make up for the sins of 1919. I'm a pretty avid Illini fan and alum, and the parallels of the 2005 Sox and 2005 Illini are very close, sitting on top of the world for a brief period and simply unable to capitalize, hell why not throw the 85' Bears into the mix of dynasties in the making gone wrong.

 

Not sure quite honestly where to go from here as a fan? I give a great deal of credit to you local guys, who have them on TV every night, and continue to pour your hearts into such a losing situation. As a non-resident the reasons to keeping donning Sox gear have shrunk to about zero.....

Edited May 10, 2010 by stretchstretch

[T R U]

Wed almost surely be picking first in the 2011 draft if we did what you are proposing..

 

Also, considering the trade chips we have are either not going to get us a return or are too expensive to move, we could be looking at YEARS of sucking potentially..

 

 

[greg775]

4) I would absoulutely think about sending Beckham and Ramirez down to Charlotte to play together everyday in a stress-free environment. As Beckham said it best, "just be a player that's fun to watch," remember why you fell in love with baseball and go back to being the player we all know you can become. Maybe it's not Chase Utley, but it's a 3-5 time all-star and very solid contributor with "plus" offensive skills at that position.

 

With that move, I'd play Nix at 2B and Vizquel at SS everyday, with Brent Lillibridge up as the replacement and giving Vizquel a rest whenever he asked Ozzie for a day off. We don't have a SS close to being ready, Escobar is the nearest, so maybe you'd even bring Hudson (basically he's just filler) up.

 

That is not a good idea because Nix and Omar and Lilly as the replacement is so bad it's laughable.

[Balta1701]

so bad it's laughable.

The problem is...that description is equally applicable to Beckham as well.

[Flash Tizzle]

4) I would absoulutely think about sending Beckham and Ramirez down to Charlotte to play together everyday in a stress-free environment. As Beckham said it best, "just be a player that's fun to watch," remember why you fell in love with baseball and go back to being the player we all know you can become. Maybe it's not Chase Utley, but it's a 3-5 time all-star and very solid contributor with "plus" offensive skills at that position.

They'll be playing in a stress free environment on the South Side fairly soon.

 

Their issues are either mechanical or due to some unified scouting report that has perfectly exploited their weaknesses. Either way, Charlotte doesn't help. What are we ultimately suggesting, that going down to AAA and killing scrub pitching will help their confidence? Are we dealing with little boys here? If I ever heard Beckham needed to go to the minors to remember why he fell in love with baseball, I would immediately begin to question his mental state. He hits....a f***ing baseball....for a living. It's a god damn kids game that you're being paid for! Greinke found his appreciation for baseball outside of baseball, while saving the team some money! That's where Beckham can find his love for baseball, on his own time -- for free.

Edited May 10, 2010 by Flash Tizzle

[caulfield12]

"It's a baseball game," he said. "Sometimes I tend to forget that because of how well I want to do.

 

"I thought of something (Thursday) night that I've always told myself that I haven't thought about this year. Just go out there and be fun to watch. That's a little different than going out there and having some fun. What I mean by that is just play the game the right way. People respect guys that go out there and bust their butt because they have too." dailyherald.com

 

 

Yes, FlashTizzle, I got your point, b4 you edited it.

 

I was in KC when Zach Greinke "flaked out" and I listened to him describe how he would just like to take his golden arm, walk out of the clubhouse, go back home and just ride around mowing lawns and plugging his Walkman or I-pod in to block out the world...obviously, Beckham's not used to dealing with a slump of this magnitude, and he's putting too much pressure on himself.

 

Maybe everyone's right and Beckham and Ramirez need to get things turned around without going to Charlotte. There's not a clear "right" or "wrong" answer in this situation. Arguments abound for each side, obviously.

 

And maybe the White Sox will become so "under the radar" that he can just quietly have a great second half, like Fields or Owens did in 2007, without anyone noticing.

 

Whatever the decision it, it has to be based on preserving his ability to be a franchise cornerstone for the next decade...because we're running low on those "face of the franchise" type players if we shed Danks, Buerhle, PK, Jenks, AJ, etc.

 

I really thought that Quentin and Ramirez would become, if not All-Stars or MVP candidates on a yearly basis, above average MLB players at their positions. And that still might be the case.

 

The way I look at it, we have to find those players (yes, it sounds so simple) that have the ability to be MORE than average or below average. Teahen, forget about it...same thing with Pierre. I know someone will argue that even the Yankees and Red Sox don't have All-Stars at every position, yes?

 

Beckham can be above average at 2B...Ramirez can be at SS because of his power, speed and POTENTIAL defensive ability if he puts it altogether, Quentin, yes (but he has to hit 900-950 OPS because of his shoddy defensive play, reminiscent of JD), Alex Rios, hell yes...

 

That leaves Tyler Flowers at catcher (sacrifice D for offense at USCF), possibly Morel at 3B, Viciedo at 1B/DH/RF/LF. I'm close to ruling out Jordan Danks as capable of being "above average" at any outfield position. It would absolutely HAVE to be CF, and I'm not sure we want to move Rios back to RF to make way for Jordan. It think the odds are stacked against Morel because of his lack of power to play at USCF 81 games per year.

 

Then Hudson needs to be a 4 starter at worst and 3 starter at best.

 

Mitchell, Viciedo and Trayce Thompson, ideally two of those three guys, need to become our version of Carl Crawford, BJ Upton or Evan Longoria. Superstar, game changing players.

Edited May 10, 2010 by caulfield12

[kitekrazy]

"Ozzie's Team" was put together to beat the Twins. Maybe it's time the organization start to model the Twins or the Rays and invest in your minor league system. It seems playing defense is the lowest priority in this organization. There is no situational hitting. There's plenty of players with low baseball IQ. The list goes on and on.

 

Sending Beckham down=bad idea. Move him down the order. There's plenty of player who had great rookie season and tanked the next season.

 

They hate participating in the free agent market and take risks on older veterans with hopes of being a comeback player.

 

I'm all for restructure.

[caulfield12]

"Ozzie's Team" was put together to beat the Twins. Maybe it's time the organization start to model the Twins or the Rays and invest in your minor league system. It seems playing defense is the lowest priority in this organization. There is no situational hitting. There's plenty of players with low baseball IQ. The list goes on and on.

 

Sending Beckham down=bad idea. Move him down the order. There's plenty of player who had great rookie season and tanked the next season.

 

They hate participating in the free agent market and take risks on older veterans with hopes of being a comeback player.

 

I'm all for restructure.

 

 

It has worked with Andruw Jones and, to a lesser extent, JJ Putz.

 

But with Kotsay, Vizquel, Teahen (although not "old," he's not a youngster anymore either) and Pierre, not so much.

 

The Red Sox went through this same exact experience when they tried to "fill" around their core with Baldelli, Saito, Penny, Smoltz, Josh Bard and Mark Kotsay on the "cheap," only Penny has emerged as a value, and NOT with the Red Sox, of course.