Would it be better for the organization to get swept by the twins?

[whitesoxfan101]

Stupid comment. Sox sweep and they are 4.5 games back. That is great for the organization as a whole. Losing is rarely, if ever good, especially when you have a lot of key parts and to me aren't incredibly far away. The offense is one of the worse of all time at this point in the season and it won't stay that way (judging by career norms).

 

This team has some holes, but to act like there aren't very very good baseball players on the squad, we'd be lying. I'm not saying there is an easy fix, but this team isn't near as bad as the record indicates.

 

The Sox will be 6 back if they sweep. I agree losing is rarely, if ever good, and you could certainly argue this team isn't as bad as their record indicates. But this is simply not a playoff team, and if people are worried they'll linger half a dozen games back in July, leading to a bad win now trade by KW that won't change the fact that Minnesota and the loser of the Tampa Bay/New York AL East battle are better than us, I can understand that concern.

Edited May 11, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[spiderman]

Stupid comment. Sox sweep and they are 4.5 games back. That is great for the organization as a whole. Losing is rarely, if ever good, especially when you have a lot of key parts and to me aren't incredibly far away. The offense is one of the worse of all time at this point in the season and it won't stay that way (judging by career norms).

 

This team has some holes, but to act like there aren't very very good baseball players on the squad, we'd be lying. I'm not saying there is an easy fix, but this team isn't near as bad as the record indicates.

 

If the Sox sweep the Twins, they are 6 games back.

 

Anyways, I do agree that the offense will perform better at some point, but when will that be? When they are 10 games out, 11? 9? At some point, and I believe we're already there, it becomes too much too overcome.

 

I do agree that this team has some very good players - but there are also some gaping holes, particularly in the everyday lineup that make me doubt that this team will consistently score enough runs this season to overcome the hole it has dug.

[NorthSideSox72]

What is up with this "I rip people when they're not online" crap? Am I supposed to check the user list to make certain whatever person I'm "ripping" is on to give them the chance to respond? lol. If telling it like it is, is ripping somebody then so be it. You, along with a host of others (who I don't have to name because they, and everybody else, know who they are), have made this board unbearable at times. I have no problem whatsoever with constructive criticism. Hell, I don't even have a problem with saying so and so sucks. But there's a way to go about it. fathom used to get on my god damned nerves. But even he can be critical without looking like a jackass.

Careful with that last line there. I agree with you that the negativity and salty one-liners make the board irritating. But - and this goes to everyone - let's not go down the road of personal attacks. That won't end well.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

Huh? It's not whining to point out the very obvious fact that there is a more than 95 percent chance that the Sox aren't going to the playoffs. If you want to focus on the less than 5 percent, that's your right. I'd love for you to miraculously end up right and the team end up in the playoffs because it'd make things a lot more interesting, but that's just not realistic. I don't think anybody is miserable and whiney over this team either, or at least I know I personally am living a fine, happy life without them being relevant. It's more fun when they are, and I'll still watch the games even though they suck, but don't hate on people for being realistic.

 

Give me a motherf***ing break. The season has been "over" for at least 3 weeks according to some. Don't act like this s*** just started with this thread. How the f*** is losing to the Twins the next two nights going to benefit the organization? "Now were 10 games out instead of 8 games. Now the fun begins!"

[iamshack]

Making the assumption that the White Sox will play at such a clip to win about 90 games needed to win the division is a stretch, and while there is still 130 games left, I believe history (if somebody can provide the stats on this, that would be great) shows that teams that fall behind this much, this early typically don't catch up - adding to that, it's not like the White Sox were expected to win 90 games this year - a lot of the projections had them with about 80 wins - give or take 2 wins.

You're missing the entire argument however, and so are many in this thread.

 

The Twins built a lead of 8 games or however many games they are ahead of us in FIVE WEEKS. Is it really your contention that the Sox are not capable of making that same lead up in nearly FIVE MONTHS? That is just pure foolishness.

 

You can argue all you want that this team sucks. But that is not the same argument as "this team is out of it because of the number of games back they are at this point in the season."

[spiderman]

Interesting snapshot, but that's what it is - a one time window snapshot. If you went to, say, 40 games, you'll find some other playoff teams below the .500 line. What if the Sox have better records than them? You make the leap of assumption here that because there are only 2 at 32 games which are that bad, that there cannot be any at 40, or 50 games, which may be below where the Sox stand at that time.

 

The Sox are playing crappy baseball and are 8 games out - this is bad, but there is no such thing as an absolute line as to when its time to blow it up. It would be nice to think that, but history says otherwise.

 

Personally, I will echo what someone said earlier - memorial Day Weekend is a good evaluation point. If the Sox are 8+ games out (give or take) at that time, it might be time to cut the vets loose and rebuild in June. If they are say 4 games out and playing better, maybe time to add a bat and a LOOGY. If they are somehow miraculously in a near tie for the lead, then you leave them alone for a while. But its not a hard and fast thing.

 

I don't have any issues with waiting another month. There's no loss in doing so. Chances are, they will play somewhere in the .500 range, and will probably stay somewhere between 6 and 10 games out, but I'm sure Kenny Williams (as do many others including myself) want to give this team a good sample size in order to have more certainty.

[whitesoxfan101]

Give me a motherf***ing break. The season has been "over" for at least 3 weeks according to some. Don't act like this s*** just started with this thread. How the f*** is losing to the Twins the next two nights going to benefit the organization? "Now were 10 games out instead of 8 games. Now the fun begins!"

 

I didn't say it would, I just said this team isn't going to the playoffs anyways no matter what happens the next two days. There is no tangible benefit to the organization either way, because we're still going to be eating Minnesota's dust in July anyways. Unless of course a rally that would surprise most of us occurs. Such a rally is unlikely, but that's why you wait until July to trade away parts, because every once in a blue moon, the 2006 Twins occur. Such a team is still a rare exception, not the rule though.

[spiderman]

You're missing the entire argument however, and so are many in this thread.

 

The Twins built a lead of 8 games or however many games they are ahead of us in FIVE WEEKS. Is it really your contention that the Sox are not capable of making that same lead up in nearly FIVE MONTHS? That is just pure foolishness.

 

You can argue all you want that this team sucks. But that is not the same argument as "this team is out of it because of the number of games back they are at this point in the season."

 

I don't think it's foolishness. Now, if you think the White Sox are going to win 92 games this season, I could at least understand your argument in believing that they can overcome this. I don't think they are more than about a 80 win team if things go well.

 

I don't think team sucks - there are at least 10 teams clearly worse than they are, probably a few more. They are not good enough in my estimation to overcome a 8 game deficit.

[SoxAce]

I do agree that this team has some very good players - but there are also some gaping holes, particularly in the everyday lineup that make me doubt that this team will consistently score enough runs this season to overcome the hole it has dug.

 

Agreed 100% which is why I would love to see some youth on this team to perhaps light a fire or/and for KW to make solid trades for now and the future. Guys like Flowers (OPS/OBP) Hudson, maybe D2 and some trades like for Gordon (3B, potential) Kila (1B/OBP) or a guy in the OF perhaps with good OBP potential would be beneficial. I just can't for the life of me take a team seriously when you have juan Pierre leading off for you, and I've ripped him since the trade was made so I've been consistent with it. I still think Quentin, Beckham, Peavy, Floyd (please put Danks ahead of Floyd so he won't go back to back with Peavy Coop/Ozzie) etc.. will be fine.

[caulfield12]

8 games out in mid May is pretty close to out of the race already. Not very many teams come back from deficits like that. A very very small number of exceptions have, but that number is super small.

 

 

The 2001 team started 14-29 and got all the way back to 8 games over .500.

 

1983, 16-24 to winning the division by almost 30 games and 100 victories.

 

It's never, ever good for the White Sox to lose, because it crushes our attendance and depresses our payroll going forward historically.

[Greg Hibbard]

Actually, I just found out that the 2001 Oakland A's were 8-18 and made the playoffs, winning 102 games.

 

They also closed with an absolutely insane 63-19 run from July 1st through the end of the season.

Edited May 11, 2010 by Greg Hibbard

[whitesoxfan101]

The 2001 team started 14-29 and got all the way back to 8 games over .500.

 

1983, 16-24 to winning the division by almost 30 games and 100 victories.

 

It's never, ever good for the White Sox to lose, because it crushes our attendance and depresses our payroll going forward historically.

 

Can this team play at the clip necessary based on the hole they've already dug to reach the low 90's win total necessary to even have a shot at the postseason though? Very unlikely.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Actually, I just found out that the 2001 Oakland A's were 8-18 and made the playoffs.

 

The Yankees were 21-29 in 2007 and made the playoffs. Point is the season is far from over.

[whitesoxfan101]

The Yankees were 21-29 in 2007 and made the playoffs. Point is the season is far from over.

 

Well yeah. That's why you wait until the month of July to sell off parts even if you're in sell mode. Every once in a rare while, a team might surprise you.

[Chisoxfn]

The Sox will be 6 back if they sweep. I agree losing is rarely, if ever good, and you could certainly argue this team isn't as bad as their record indicates. But this is simply not a playoff team, and if people are worried they'll linger half a dozen games back in July, leading to a bad win now trade by KW that won't change the fact that Minnesota and the loser of the Tampa Bay/New York AL East battle are better than us, I can understand that concern.

I don't know why, but the standings thing I was looking at showed 7.5 games and I was thinking that this was a 3 game series. I agree an 8 game deficit is large, but there will be significant swings during the season and very rarely will a team play without a cold spell. That means it is quite possible that the Sox have had there significant drought where the Twins have not yet been subject to that. So just that alone will be a regression towards the mean. On top of that we have a buttload of games left with the Twins/Tigers and the regression to the means on our team averages will allow for a significant increase to our production and a likely hot-streak.

 

The pitching should also improve, well at least from the rotation. Our bullpen will likely see regression amongst certain members but 2/3rds of our team should improve and I expect we'll see at least one big run.

 

So as much as it might sound cliche, I believe that this team has talent and will be better. That doesn't mean there aren't holes that won't continue to be holes, but right now there is a s***load of holes, most of which will go away (for example..Jake Peavy is not a hole).

[ChiSox_Sonix]

Just wanted to say good work@shack. These perpetual whiners really need to go out and find more constructive things to do with their time. I wouldn't even bother with a professional sports team in any way shape, or form, if they reduced me to a miserable, whiney, "SEASON'S OVER" every 2.5 seconds joke of a "fan."

 

I've been agreeing with you more and more lately.

[SoxAce]

Well yeah. That's why you wait until the month of July to sell off parts even if you're in sell mode. Every once in a rare while, a team might surprise you.

 

Not to mention they (Yankees) better had made the playoffs with that offense and SP they had at the time. (I think only their bullpen was questionable) Wasn't Torre managing them as well that year? He is the definition of calm, cool and collective.

 

So as much as it might sound cliche, I believe that this team has talent and will be better. That doesn't mean there aren't holes that won't continue to be holes, but right now there is a s***load of holes, most of which will go away (for example..Jake Peavy is not a hole).

 

No doubt.

Edited May 11, 2010 by SoxAce

[Chisoxfn]

It should probably also be pointed out that this club has been in so many games that it has lost. Which is a good indication that from a talent standpoint, we are not over-matched. When you add in how far below norm our team statistics are, you'd have to think that things would even out.

 

And from that same standpoint, a lot has gone well for the Twins and they will see a swoon at some point. It is just a matter of time. They are a very good team though and it is quite possible that the Sox have already buried themselves, but to state that with extreme confidence would be very foolish at this point.

[whitesoxfan101]

I don't know why, but the standings thing I was looking at showed 7.5 games and I was thinking that this was a 3 game series. I agree an 8 game deficit is large, but there will be significant swings during the season and very rarely will a team play without a cold spell. That means it is quite possible that the Sox have had there significant drought where the Twins have not yet been subject to that. So just that alone will be a regression towards the mean. On top of that we have a buttload of games left with the Twins/Tigers and the regression to the means on our team averages will allow for a significant increase to our production and a likely hot-streak.

 

The pitching should also improve, well at least from the rotation. Our bullpen will likely see regression amongst certain members but 2/3rds of our team should improve and I expect we'll see at least one big run.

 

So as much as it might sound cliche, I believe that this team has talent and will be better. That doesn't mean there aren't holes that won't continue to be holes, but right now there is a s***load of holes, most of which will go away (for example..Jake Peavy is not a hole).

 

Certainly, which is why you wait until July to decide what kind of trades you want to make (if any). I'm not sure how much the Twins are going to regress though. They'll probably have a mild regression, but if the Sox are going to get back in the race, it'll be because they play really well. And while I do feel this pitching staff could get hot, I can't say the same for this offense. As much as some guys will eventually hit better, I think it's unrealistic to expect guys like Konerko, Rios, and maybe even Andruw Jones to keep hitting as they are right now.

Edited May 11, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[BigSqwert]

But even he can be critical without looking like a jackass.

 

First I'm considered a "fan" in quotation marks now a jackass. If only I could add as much positive value to the board as you.

[fathom]

Everytime I think I want the Sox to lose to better the organization, I remember that no one has been held responsible in a long time for the struggles on the field (ie: Greg Walker). Also, as others have accurately stated, the more this team loses now, the more we will lose in attendance and the result will be loser payroll in upcoming seasons. I root more for guys like Kotsay and Vizquel to perform poorly (if we're going to lose, of course) in order to provide more chances for Nix, etc. As much as I might state that I don't mind if we lose, I know that every game we win, my optimism for the next game and a possible win streak rises.

[Chisoxfn]

Certainly, which is why you wait until July to decide what kind of trades you want to make (if any). I'm not sure how much the Twins are going to regress though. They'll probably have a mild regression, but if the Sox are going to get back in the race, it'll be because they play really well. And while I do feel this pitching staff could get hot, I can't say the same for this offense. As much as some guys will eventually hit better, I think it's unrealistic to expect guys like Konerko, Rios, and maybe even Andruw Jones to keep hitting as they are right now.

I don't think Paulie will continue producing like a mad man. Rios might not stay quite on par, but the reality is we have pretty much 6 guys performing at historically below career norms and that will not continue. Those guys might not reach there career numbers, but it is relatively safe to say most of them will improve from where they are at at a significant level (low .200 avg will not hold up, no way, no how). And the starting pitching, barring injuries, should see significant statistical improvements as well.

 

Combine those two areas and it is not unrealistic to see the Sox go on a large hot streak. All that said, the Sox have recently underperformed and that trend is somewhat alarming, imo.

[Jordan4life_2007]

First I'm considered a "fan" in quotation marks now a jackass. If only I could add as much positive value to the board as you.

 

I went too far with the jackass comment. So I'll go ahead and take that back. But don't act like I'm not speaking some truth.

[whitesoxfan101]

Everytime I think I want the Sox to lose to better the organization, I remember that no one has been held responsible in a long time for the struggles on the field (ie: Greg Walker). Also, as others have accurately stated, the more this team loses now, the more we will lose in attendance and the result will be loser payroll in upcoming seasons. I root more for guys like Kotsay and Vizquel to perform poorly (if we're going to lose, of course) in order to provide more chances for Nix, etc. As much as I might state that I don't mind if we lose, I know that every game we win, my optimism for the next game and a possible win streak rises.

 

That's the counter argument to us just completely falling flat helping the organization. Maybe in the vacuum of common sense it does, but people like Kenny, Ozzie, and Greg Walker seem to have lifetime contracts because of 2005 unfortunately. Even beyond that though, even if we assume any or all of those 3 could be fired this season (and who really knows), losses=less attendance=less payroll which you would assume=less talent on the field in the future. Additionally, such could lead to a sick cycle of low payrolls, bad teams, and poor attendance.

[BigSqwert]

I went too far with the jackass comment. So I'll go ahead and take that back. But don't act like I'm not speaking some truth.

As annoying as it is for you to see negative posts from people like me, it's equally annoying to see you be negative about those posts. We don't need a Positivity Policeman in the forum. Leave it to the mods to call out people for stepping over the line.