Would it be better for the organization to get swept by the twins?

[SoxAce]

I didn't even mention Rios because he isn't tradeable. He falls similarly into the Peavy/Buehrle/etc mode where any value you'd get for the player is off-set by the fact that he has a significant long-term contract and while he is playing great this year, I don't see any team willing to take on that contract and give us quality chips.

 

Which is why I said earlier the sox shouldn't go on a full firesale. If worst comes to worst, you trade guys like A.J., Konerko, Jenks, Pierre (for a bag of balls really), Putz, Jones etc.. insert the youth to perhaps light a fire (Flowers, Hudson, possibly Danks 2, couple of young bullpen arms, etc..) but still keep the core in tact. (Buehrle, Floyd, Peavy, Danks, Rios, Beckham, Quentin, etc..) and see if you can still make a run at this thing, perhaps catch some breaks or just go nuts while having fun (ala Rockies/Indians/Astros, etc..)

[ThunderBolt]

It's never a good thing for an organization to get swept by its biggest rival.

[iamshack]

I would say you are both right. The Sox could easily have the 3 extra wins they need to be .500 right now with as close as a lot of games have been. But what about the close games they've won, like in the sweep of Seattle? Additionally, even if we ignore those, the Sox would have to come up with a stretch of ball six games above .500 to get back to break even, so as easily as this team could be .500, the difference between that and 13-19 is still significant.

Well for them to win anything, they certainly are going to have to have plenty of stretches where they win 5-6 more than they lose. No one is saying anything different.

[flavum]

I guess we have different opinions of this team. I don't think they lose games because they're unlucky; they lose because they're bad. The bullpen has moments of brilliance, but they've also had moments of being horrible--including Thornton, who is probably the best lefty reliever in baseball.

 

They don't hit in the clutch. Their OBP is awful. The defense has been bad.

 

Winning teams win, and losing teams lose. That's how it goes. If they want to start winning now, and in bulk, great. I won't be holding my breath. And I'm sorry, 13-19 is a TON worse than 16-16 at this point in the season. That's why those tough losses are tough...because they stay in the standings all year long. They don't leave the loss column.

Edited May 11, 2010 by flavum

[whitesoxfan101]

Their OBP is awful.

 

I would like to point out that we're 10th in the majors in walks despite being 2nd to last in batting average. If our batting average was just respectable, we'd actually be a pretty good OBP team. So we're not so much a bad OBP team as we can't hit.

Edited May 11, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[Chisoxfn]

I don't things are quite so bleak.

 

Let's go back to the end of 2007. Our minor league system was even looking more brutal, agreed? The only glimmer of hope was Owens/Fields/Wasserman and the fact that we hadn't dealt Buehrle/Dye, etc.

 

With the additions of Floyd/Danks/Ramirez/Quentin to that ballclub, we went from 72 to 89 wins, a 17 game differential.

 

There's absolutely no reason that can't happen again. 2005, coming off that mysterious 2004 offseason, we caught lightning in a bottle and never looked back.

 

Yes, 100%, KW'd need to make the "RIGHT" moves in the prospects acquired department....if it was 2002 all over again with our returns (the only decent one we got back was Frank Francisco), then I'd tend to agree with you.

 

Things would look a lot different to me if Mitchell was raking now at Winston-Salem or even BIRM, and looking 1 1/2 years away instead of 2 1/2 to 3 years out....

 

Yes, I do agree trading out of that most valuable core (Thornton, Danks, Peavy, Floyd, Rios) is riverboat gambling at its best and Jonestown suicidal at its worst, but I have zero belief that KW won't do at least SOMETHING and sit back on his hands while Rome is burning. Numerous times, they both said they won't tolerate and sit idly through another 2007, yes?

 

We do need a lot of things to break right with Flowers, Morel, Viciedo, Danks II, Shelby (possibly), Santeliz, CJ Retherford...but I don't think we can say we're any worse off now than in 2007, with the possible exception of the Twins looking like a "dynasty" and spending more money than us on payroll.

 

OTOH, look how good the Tigers and Indians (and White Sox in 05/06 and 08) have looked at different points and how each team "collapsed" and fell back to earth, only to be resurrected like a phoenix out of the ashes. It's always possible in this division, it's just that the margin of error is razor thin with Mauer signed until forever (then again, he goes down due to injury and their franchise is seriously imperiled, with 20% of payroll soaked up by ONE player, that almost never works, see A-Rod) and the Twins being finally able to compete on a level playing field with us and DET.

I agree everything looked bleak and I give Kenny massive credit for what he was able to pull off. Our team is in much much better position that than 2007 club. That said, Kenny pulled off one hell of an off-season and I don't think you can regularly expect any GM or front office to be able to pull off something like that.

[iamshack]

I guess we have different opinions of this team. I don't they lose games because they're unlucky; they lose because they're bad. The bullpen has moments of brilliance, but they've also had moments of being horrible--including Thornton, who is probably the best lefty reliever in baseball.

 

They don't hit in the clutch. Their OBP is awful. The defense has been bad.

 

Winning teams win, and losing teams lose. That's how it goes. If they want to start winning now, and in bulk, great. I won't be holding my breath. And I'm sorry, 13-19 is a TON worse than 16-16 at this point in the season. That's why those tough losses are tough...because they stay in the standings all year long. They don't leave the loss column.

No one is saying ANYTHING about luck. And I am not disputing the difference in the record. What I am saying is from your impressions of this team - that they are bad - you think you have a pretty good idea of just how bad they are. And yet, with just 2 or 3 single different occurences inside of literally thousands of them, our record could be DRASTICALLY better. So what I am challenging is not the facts, but rather, that when just a few individual occurences out of thousands can impact a team's record so dramatically, that you have not seen nearly enough to make any kind of accurate judgment on might happen in the remainder of the next 130 games. Not even close.

[Chisoxfn]

No one is saying ANYTHING about luck. And I am not disputing the difference in the record. What I am saying is from your impressions of this team - that they are bad - you think you have a pretty good idea of just how bad they are. And yet, with just 2 or 3 single different occurences inside of literally thousands of them, our record could be DRASTICALLY better. So what I am challenging is not the facts, but rather, that when just a few individual occurences out of thousands can impact a team's record so dramatically, that you have not seen nearly enough to make any kind of accurate judgment on might happen in the remainder of the next 130 games. Not even close.

It is this reason that you will never see any significant trades made until the beginning of June. GM's really need enough time to get a true handle on there team. Do you know a decent amount through 30 games, sure, but 30 games is such a small sample in the grand scheme of things that one hot streak or cold streak has such a strong impact on how you rate a team.

[fathom]

Our record is what it is. Just as there were games we should have won, the Seattle series was a perfect example of games we could have easily lost. We're not as bad as we've played, but it's going to take a lot of "ifs" for this offense to get going. There's far too many guys showing minimal signs of breaking out of it.

[Chisoxfn]

I should add that I fully believe in the Sox rotation and I know if/when it gets hot, this team could run off 15 to 16 wins over a 20 game span based upon hot starting pitching and just mediocre hitting.

 

And I'll say right now, I think this team has a few 5 game winning streaks in them.

[BigSqwert]

Our record is what it is. Just as there were games we should have won, the Seattle series was a perfect example of games we could have easily lost. We're not as bad as we've played, but it's going to take a lot of "ifs" for this offense to get going. There's far too many guys showing minimal signs of breaking out of it.

Don't forget the intangible in Ozzie. His lineup and bullpen decisions are bewildering at best.

[flavum]

Ok, fair enough. Let's give them more time.

 

To me, the math has already caught up to them. We'll see if they can get hot, or if the Twins and Tigers turn into bad teams.

[SoxAce]

Don't forget the intangible in Ozzie. His lineup and bullpen decisions are bewildering at best.

 

I've counted 3 games alone he has cost us.

[scotty22hotty]

I still think this team can go on a run... they've played the worst offensively in the AL and are only 13-19 (8 back)

The Twins have played the best in the AL so far and I doubt that'll last all season.

I can honestly see this team winning 86 games, hopefully it'll be enough

 

[BigSqwert]

I've counted 3 games alone he has cost us.

It's gotten to the point that he's become a hindrance to the team. They'll have to win despite his decisions not because of them.

[whitesoxfan101]

Don't forget the intangible in Ozzie. His lineup and bullpen decisions are bewildering at best.

 

I think the secret is out in our fanbase, but it amazes me how few people outside of it realize how poor a manager he is. Maybe the fact that he's bat s*** crazy just covers it up to people who don't watch us play everyday.

[fathom]

I've counted 3 games alone he has cost us.

 

He won us a game in Toronto having Kotsay ph in the 10th and then not bunting with Teahen.

[iamshack]

I don't think it's incredibly likely that this team wins much of anything, unless the Twins come well back to earth.

 

That being said, I do know that this roster is better than what they've shown and that several of these players are better than what they've shown.

 

Does that mean they will go 77-53 to win 90 games? Most likely not. But from what I've seen thus far, can I say with any more certainty than I could on day 1 whether they would win 90 games? Not really, to be honest.

 

Am I even worried about what the Twins are doing on a daily basis at this point? Absolutely not. I know that we need to start winning series, string a few 3 and 4 game streaks together, and avoid losing streaks ourselves. If we can do those things, I'll look up again at the All-Star break and take stock of what needs to be done then.

[caulfield12]

I don't think it's incredibly likely that this team wins much of anything, unless the Twins come well back to earth.

 

That being said, I do know that this roster is better than what they've shown and that several of these players are better than what they've shown.

 

Does that mean they will go 77-53 to win 90 games? Most likely not. But from what I've seen thus far, can I say with any more certainty than I could on day 1 whether they would win 90 games? Not really, to be honest.

 

Am I even worried about what the Twins are doing on a daily basis at this point? Absolutely not. I know that we need to start winning series, string a few 3 and 4 game streaks together, and avoid losing streaks ourselves. If we can do those things, I'll look up again at the All-Star break and take stock of what needs to be done then.

 

 

You sound too pragmatic and measured, like Barack Obama (lol...I voted for him, by the way...made me think immediately of him, the way you wrote it, I would expect EXACTLY that to come from a press release if he was GM of the White Sox instead of KW, who's definitely more likely to blow a gasket or overturn the post-game spread than Barry).

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

Just wanted to say good work@shack. These perpetual whiners really need to go out and find more constructive things to do with their time. I wouldn't even bother with a professional sports team in any way shape, or form, if they reduced me to a miserable, whiney, "SEASON'S OVER" every 2.5 seconds joke of a "fan."

 

This is acceptable?

[Milkman delivers]

First of all, I have not stated how many games I think they will win.

 

Second of all, we have ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY GAMES LEFT. I'm sorry, but you just do not have neither the crystal ball nor the immense evaluation skills to know whether or not 8 games can be made up with 132 left. That is literally one game every two weeks. We honestly don't know a whole lot more right now than we did at the beginning of the season.

 

Finally, you have no idea what kinds of injuries or trades/transactions might occur between now and the end of the season. You just have no idea what could happen over the course of five months!

 

Well, if you had the aforementioned crystal ball, you'd know that. And how are you so sure that one of us doesn't own one.

[iamshack]

Well, if you had the aforementioned crystal ball, you'd know that. And how are you so sure that one of us doesn't own one.

Because if one of you did, you wouldn't be able to keep the secret...you'd be blabbing all night long about exactly what was going to happen...

[Milkman delivers]

Now this I agree 100 percent with, and it's also very scary to think about. If the Sox are going to go into rebuilding mode, more resources have to be put into minor league development, and we'll probably have to trade some people we really don't want to just to get some young talent back. And even then, it'll take us minimum a few years to get good again.

 

I can deal with that. And I think it's going to have to happen eventually, so the sooner the better.

[Milkman delivers]

Because if one of you did, you wouldn't be able to keep the secret...you'd be blabbing all night long about exactly what was going to happen...

 

Screw that. I'd place thousands of bets and never speak a word of it to anyone until I made my money.

[elrockinMT]

No, and here's why.

 

If this team falls completely out of the race early this season, it's a ticket sales killer.

 

 

I can't do anything but hope they win and keep winning