White Sox vs Royals 5-16-10 @ 1:10 pm

[zeke bonura is the GOAT]

Bah, if you could trade him with minimal return, you save $3 million or so, and Flowers is putting up a >.900 OPS at AAA.

 

You're right though, we'd miss AJ's work behind the plate. Just be nice if he was hitting >.200.

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1489

 

i dont buy that catchers have a significant effect on how the pitchers perform. plus, i remember reading that pitchers like throwing to flowers.

[caulfield12]

Maybe we can talk more about Thome (great to see him enjoying himself in MIN, I'm happy for him)....so we can rest the Swisher, Ryan Sweeney, Pods, Chris B. Young and Chris Carter/Gio Gonzalez threads???

 

Haha....well, I'm to blame for some of those...but I argued over and over again for keeping Thome and giving him 300-350 AB's, which is exactly what Minnesota is projecting him to do.

 

 

[Balta1701]

Flowers has a .901 OPS but he also has 39 k in 101 AB and is only hitting .257. The one knock on him was he is going to k a ton in MLB. Right now it may be half his AB. There is no need to rush him unless you enjoy Josh Fields-like offense.

Here's the question to ask...how much is he going to learn from a couple more months in AAA putting up a giant OPS and hitting the ball easily out of the park? If he's going to struggle when he gets to the big leagues, may as well do that this season.

 

If we wait until after June 1, it doesn't really cost us any extra arbitration time by having him at the big leagues, and you save some money if you can move AJ.

[Dick Allen]

Still, we can't be paying declining veteran players $5-6-7 million dollars that are way below average defenders and below league average offensively.

 

The future is Flowers, whether he fails or not, the only way this offense has any upside is if Flowers is an 800-900 OPS type of player to go along with the defensive and game-calling limitations he'll obviously be presenting (think Miguel Olivo without the arm).

Flowers may someday be the OPS guy you are hoping, but its certainly not now.

[fathom]

Sounds like Wednesday might be the decision day for a lot of our personnel.

[chetkincaid]

[Balta1701]

Sounds like Wednesday might be the decision day for a lot of our personnel.

Why? That's a poor time to start doing it. Except maybe Beckham.

[kitekrazy]

Yeah, Thome's .864 OPS would make this lineup all stinky.

 

It would have no effect.

[Dick Allen]

Here's the question to ask...how much is he going to learn from a couple more months in AAA putting up a giant OPS and hitting the ball easily out of the park? If he's going to struggle when he gets to the big leagues, may as well do that this season.

 

If we wait until after June 1, it doesn't really cost us any extra arbitration time by having him at the big leagues, and you save some money if you can move AJ.

The White Sox "saved" money last year unloading veterans, yet when it came to acquiring more offense at a reasonable rate this offseason, they passed. The "savings" means nothing. I disagree with the notion he's got nothing to learn at AAA. You throw him to the wolves now and he fails, you may never get him back. He made some progress defensively last year. He still has a lot of things to work on, getting rid of a guy like AJ who has been as close to the heart of the team as any player and putting all the pressure on Flowers is a disaster waiting to happen. Ease him in during September or if AJ gets hurt, and see what he can do next year, but always have a back up plan.

[caulfield12]

Flowers may someday be the OPS guy you are hoping, but its certainly not now.

 

How can you honestly know that?

 

It's just a guess, based on his K/AB rate, yes? I mean, as someone else said, what's the worst thing that could happen, at this point?? What else is he or Danks going to learn in AAA? If they're so fragile they end up like Brian Anderson or Josh Fields, well, then so be it. Then we really have to look at our drafting philosophy and totally revamp our FO structure.

 

Now it seems like BAD LUCK is the excuse for our performance so far this season. Anyone watching Beckham and Quentin so far this season would know both those guys are doing a lot more than just hitting in "bad luck," or Gavin Floyd pitching in bad luck, etc.

 

It's like saying, well, Alex Ramirez has hit 20-30 "foul" home runs this year. Yeah, well, so what? They are foul because the pitcher put them in that place and he couldn't keep them fair. Last time I checked, they aren't getting credit on the back of the baseball card for "just missed it" or "hang with ems," are they???

 

That's just such a horrible, crappy excuse.

Edited May 16, 2010 by caulfield12

[BigSqwert]

What a s***ty day. Just got from the wake of my friend's little sister to see this. Can anything else happen to make it worse? Oh look, Tigers and Twins won. I should go in the other room to make sure my dogs are still breathing.

[Balta1701]

The White Sox "saved" money last year unloading veterans, yet when it came to acquiring more offense at a reasonable rate this offseason, they passed. The "savings" means nothing. I disagree with the notion he's got nothing to learn at AAA. You throw him to the wolves now and he fails, you may never get him back. He made some progress defensively last year. He still has a lot of things to work on, getting rid of a guy like AJ who has been as close to the heart of the team as any player and putting all the pressure on Flowers is a disaster waiting to happen. Ease him in during September or if AJ gets hurt, and see what he can do next year, but always have a back up plan.

If the Sox traded AJ right now and sent $1 million with him...they'd save more by dealing that 1 contract than they did by dealing both Contreras and Thome.

[ThunderBolt]

You'd actually bring up Flowers and expect him to be a part time DH and backup 1b? Oh, and to platoon with our other RH hitting DH?

 

Why am I bothering talking to you?

Wow, it's great to be condescended to when I'm trying to have a decent baseball discussion. God knows the notion that Flowers should get some play behind the plate and DH is completly illogical and not worth discussing. My bad, perish the thought. Edited May 16, 2010 by Thunderbolt

[caulfield12]

The White Sox "saved" money last year unloading veterans, yet when it came to acquiring more offense at a reasonable rate this offseason, they passed. The "savings" means nothing. I disagree with the notion he's got nothing to learn at AAA. You throw him to the wolves now and he fails, you may never get him back. He made some progress defensively last year. He still has a lot of things to work on, getting rid of a guy like AJ who has been as close to the heart of the team as any player and putting all the pressure on Flowers is a disaster waiting to happen. Ease him in during September or if AJ gets hurt, and see what he can do next year, but always have a back up plan.

 

There is a back-up plan, Castro and Lucy.

 

Not a great one, but one nonetheless. Heck, let Cole Armstrong play, it doesn't matter to me at this point in the season.

[kitekrazy]

Maybe we can talk more about Thome (great to see him enjoying himself in MIN, I'm happy for him)....so we can rest the Swisher, Ryan Sweeney, Pods, Chris B. Young and Chris Carter/Gio Gonzalez threads???

 

Haha....well, I'm to blame for some of those...but I argued over and over again for keeping Thome and giving him 300-350 AB's, which is exactly what Minnesota is projecting him to do.

 

Out of those 350, they'll pitch run for him at least 300 of them.

Stink spreads on this team, so if Thome were here, he probably would be bad.

 

[Balta1701]

It's just a guess, based on his K/AB rate, yes? I mean, as someone else said, what's the worst thing that could happen, at this point?? What else is he or Danks going to learn in AAA? If they're so fragile they end up like Brian Anderson or Josh Fields, well, then so be it. Then we really have to look at our drafting philosophy and totally revamp our FO structure.

I'll disagree with you on D2: he has an awful lot still to learn in AAA; he has to learn to hit AAA pitching. He's only hitting .257 with a .705 OPS right now. Supposedly they have him doing legitimate work to shorten up his swing and try to make better contact and cut down on the strikeouts.

 

Flowers is a bit different...not only has he been in AAA for longer, he's been in AA for longer as well, and he's putting up much, much better numbers in AAA than D2. Flowers is striking out a lot, but he's also hitting those pitchers. D2 isn't.

[caulfield12]

What a s***ty day. Just got from the wake of my friend's little sister to see this. Can anything else happen to make it worse? Oh look, Tigers and Twins won. I should go in the other room to make sure my dogs are still breathing.

 

Maybe a second viewing of HOW TO TRAIN YOUR DRAGON is the only way to have pleasant feelings today.

[Dick Allen]

How can you honestly know that?

 

It's just a guess, based on his K/AB rate, yes? I mean, as someone else said, what's the worst thing that could happen, at this point?? What else is he or Danks going to learn in AAA? If they're so fragile they end up like Brian Anderson or Josh Fields, well, then so be it. Then we really have to look at our drafting philosophy and totally revamp our FO structure.

 

Now it seems like BAD LUCK is the excuse for our performance so far this season. Anyone watching Beckham and Quentin so far this season would know both those guys are doing a lot more than just hitting in "bad luck," or Gavin Floyd pitching in bad luck, etc.

 

It's like saying, well, Alex Ramirez has hit 20-30 "foul" home runs this year. Yeah, well, so what? They are foul because the pitcher put them in that place and he couldn't keep them fair. Last time I checked, they aren't getting credit on the back of the baseball card for "just missed it" or "hang with ems," are they???

 

That's just such a horrible, crappy excuse.

 

So Jordan Danks, Tyler Flowers have nothing to learn in AAA, but send Beckham down? That makes zero sense. I understand people want different personnel, I do as well, but I want better personnel, not just some minor league guys doing the same damn thing. Danks isn't even hitting .250 and fanning at an incredible rate. Flowers whiffs almost 40% of the time, if they have nothing to learn, its scary how bad this organization really is.

[Balta1701]

[/b]Wow, it's great to be condescended to when I'm trying to have a decent baseball discussion. God knows the notion that Flowers should get some play behind the plate and DH is completly illogical and not worth discussing. My bad, perish the thought.

Flowers isn't going to get any playing time unless AJ is moved. He just won't. Ozzie isn't benching a struggling veteran for a kid. Neither would most any other manager. And AJ would probably hate having his replacement up next to him. That would be terrible for the kid too.

[ThunderBolt]

Balta, I respect the hell out of you, and I appreciate the back and forth. I just don’t think it’s illogical to think that Flowers can inherit a lot of Kotsay’s at-bats, and do more with them then he has.

[Dick Allen]

I'll disagree with you on D2: he has an awful lot still to learn in AAA; he has to learn to hit AAA pitching. He's only hitting .257 with a .705 OPS right now. Supposedly they have him doing legitimate work to shorten up his swing and try to make better contact and cut down on the strikeouts.

 

Flowers is a bit different...not only has he been in AAA for longer, he's been in AA for longer as well, and he's putting up much, much better numbers in AAA than D2. Flowers is striking out a lot, but he's also hitting those pitchers. D2 isn't.

More homers and more walks is the difference right now. Flowers needs to make more contact.

[Balta1701]

More homers and more walks is the difference right now. Flowers needs to make more contact.

Hitting in AAA though isn't going to teach him to make more contact. Especially not in Charlotte, where HR's are so easy to come by.

[fathom]

So Jordan Danks, Tyler Flowers have nothing to learn in AAA, but send Beckham down? That makes zero sense. I understand people want different personnel, I do as well, but I want better personnel, not just some minor league guys doing the same damn thing. Danks isn't even hitting .250 and fanning at an incredible rate. Flowers whiffs almost 40% of the time, if they have nothing to learn, its scary how bad this organization really is.

 

Of course it's scary how bad this organization is. People think Danks 2 is this huge prospect, where in reality he wouldn't be in the top 5 of most every other organization.

[caulfield12]

I'll disagree with you on D2: he has an awful lot still to learn in AAA; he has to learn to hit AAA pitching. He's only hitting .257 with a .705 OPS right now. Supposedly they have him doing legitimate work to shorten up his swing and try to make better contact and cut down on the strikeouts.

 

Flowers is a bit different...not only has he been in AAA for longer, he's been in AA for longer as well, and he's putting up much, much better numbers in AAA than D2. Flowers is striking out a lot, but he's also hitting those pitchers. D2 isn't.

 

It won't matter anyway, unless there's an injury to Jones/Rios/Pierre.

 

No way Danks comes up to sit on the bench, and Ozzie's never going to take Juan Pierre out of the line-up. Rios is ensconced in CF for now, and Danks doesn't bring very much value to the big league roster at the corner OF spots.

 

Theoretically, you could move Rios back to RF and play Danks in CF, but that's close to crazy talk with how well Alex has played, you don't mess with that and take Rios out of CF, you'd play Danks in LF or RF.

 

Maybe if the only option was Vizquel/Teahen or Danks as your DH, then I'd argue you have to try to see if Danks can come up and catch fire.

 

To me, Danks equals a more gifted and potentially talented Brian Anderson, but still more of a 4th OF unless he figures out the offensive side of the game.

[ThunderBolt]

Of course it's scary how bad this organization is. People think Danks 2 is this huge prospect, where in reality he wouldn't be in the top 5 of most every other organization.

I think a lot of it has to do with how much we love the Danks family in general. It's a great story, and Jordan seems like a really good guy.