Unload...

[gatnom]

Well, he is sure taking a lot of the blame for the bad luck so far this year. It should go both ways.

 

There is a difference between Ozzie being part of the problem with this team and Ozzie being the sole problem with this team. I don't think anybody on here is blaming this entire season on Ozzie, but his decisions have been consistently, well, stupid. You can't let a poor performance by this team's players completely mask the faults and mistakes of its manager just because even the best decisions wouldn't have saved/resurrected the season. He was here in 2005, which was a great, great season, but it's now 2010. When can we stop living in the past?

[nitetrain8601]

I still think Ozzie is a decent manager. The problem is, KW let's him play GM with the roster and coaching staff and we've seen how that blows up in his face. What KW needs to do is pick the team he wants. Sign the players he wants to. For Ozzie to be successful, you must Ozzie proof the lineup.

[WCSox]

In 100 years I think plenty of managers had teams that on paper could have won it all. And didn't.

 

Buck Showalter is a good example of this. After the D-Backs fired him, Bob Brenly won a WS with essentially the same talent. Torre also did a much better job with the '96 Yankees than Showalter did the previous year (with Tino and Jeter replacing Mattingly and Fernandez).

 

There's a reason why guys like Showalter, Dusty Baker, and Phil Garner have never won a WS.

[zeke bonura is the GOAT]

He's one of my favorite posters. He sticks to his beliefs no matter how unpopular (and this is just about all the time) they might be.

My favorite was when everybody had basically accepted the fact that Jermaine Dye was awful in the field, and greg kept on defending him and refused to believe it because of 2005.

[southsider2k5]

My favorite was when everybody had basically accepted the fact that Jermaine Dye was awful in the field, and greg kept on defending him and refused to believe it because of 2005.

 

That's kind of an odd statement from someone who just joined three days ago... Don't you think?

[nitetrain8601]

That's kind of an odd statement from someone who just joined three days ago... Don't you think?

 

in before IP check?

[Chicago White Sox]

Ozzie's gotten to the point where he's just full of himself and he, like you, is riding it all on 2005.

 

He just does far too many things that don't make sense and he puts his players in a position to fail. That's his fault and he should eventually pay the price for being the way he is.

IMO, Guillen's arrogance has been his downfall recently. He believes he knows more than everyone else. He constantly goes against the numbers and he constantly goes against common sense. Guillen shouldn't be fired because of our record, he should be fired because of his decision making. Like chw42 says above, he puts his players in a position to fail. It's really that simple.

[WCSox]

IMO, Guillen's arrogance has been his downfall recently. He believes he knows more than everyone else. He constantly goes against the numbers and he constantly goes against common sense. Guillen shouldn't be fired because of our record, he should be fired because of his decision making. Like chw42 says above, he puts his players in a position to fail. It's really that simple.

 

Agreed to an extent (e.g., batting Wise leadoff), but the broader problem is that he's lost the team. They began going through the motions and playing for a paycheck last August. It doesn't really matter if Ozzie stupidly plays Vizquel at DH while sticking Teahen at 3B, when the rest of the lineup is trying to pull the ball over the fence when they should be trying to move the runner along instead.

 

[kitekrazy]

I still think Ozzie is a decent manager. The problem is, KW let's him play GM with the roster and coaching staff and we've seen how that blows up in his face. What KW needs to do is pick the team he wants. Sign the players he wants to. For Ozzie to be successful, you must Ozzie proof the lineup.

 

I don't think Kenny or Ozzie pick the team they want. Budget and who's available does that. I still disagree this is Ozzie's team. No GM in any sport acquires players to spite a manager. GMs rarely get in the way of a manager's pick of coaches.

[Jordan4life_2007]

That's kind of an odd statement from someone who just joined three days ago... Don't you think?

 

Please god don't let that be who I think it is. lol.

[DBAHO]

With what is happening in Florida with Fredi Gonzalez and Hanley Ramirez, I wonder if Ozzie is going to be their manager in 2011.

 

Think it would be the best fit for him in terms of his manging style being more suited to the NL obviously.

[Mattchoo]

With what is happening in Florida with Fredi Gonzalez and Hanley Ramirez, I wonder if Ozzie is going to be their manager in 2011.

 

Think it would be the best fit for him in terms of his manging style being more suited to the NL obviously.

 

I would love the White Sox to go get Hanley Ramirez. Probably no way we could acquire him due to not having enough pieces they'd want.

 

 

Edit: Here is his current contract

 

# 6 years/$70M (2009-14)

 

* signed extension with Florida 5/17/08

* 09:$5.5M, 10:$7M, 11:$11M, 12:$15M, 13:$15.5M, 14:$16M

 

 

I wonder if the Marlins can afford it in the later years. Weren't they trying to get a new baseball stadium?

Edited May 19, 2010 by Mattchoo

[ChiSox_Sonix]

I would love the White Sox to go get Hanley Ramirez. Probably no way we could acquire him due to not having enough pieces they'd want.

 

 

Edit: Here is his current contract

 

# 6 years/$70M (2009-14)

 

* signed extension with Florida 5/17/08

* 09:$5.5M, 10:$7M, 11:$11M, 12:$15M, 13:$15.5M, 14:$16M

 

 

I wonder if the Marlins can afford it in the later years. Weren't they trying to get a new baseball stadium?

 

It opens in 2012. It's in a better area and has a retractable roof. They are banking on those factors as well as it being an actual baseball stadium to draw fans. Loria has also pledged to spend more once the stadium opens. If the Marlins have financial problems it will be at the end of Hanley's deal anyways. Acquiring him is a pipe dream. He is as untouchable a player you will find in baseball.

 

[WHITESOXRANDY]

I don't see the value in starting over unless you have some top prospects. The White Sox really don't have those. You are not going to get top prospects unless you trade Peavy. Flowers will probably be a decent hitter. He'll have a fairly low AVG. with decent power and OBP. A poor man's Jim Thome.

 

 

I don't see the value in spending $ 100 mil. a year in payroll to continually battle Cleveland and KC to stay out of the AL Central cellar.

 

And, I disagree, there will plent of good prospects to be had for this group of players. But, that's why they need to dump them all. They need a lot of prospects and because the organization has been rn so poorly for so many years they have very few good prospects currently.

 

Which, again, is my point. They need to gut everything and start over the right way. I don't want to watch this crap anymore. I'd rather watch a bunch of excited young kids win 60 games a year for the next few years while we pile up high draft picks, prospects, and develop them the right way.

[caulfield12]

I don't see the value in spending $ 100 mil. a year in payroll to continually battle Cleveland and KC to stay out of the AL Central cellar.

 

And, I disagree, there will plent of good prospects to be had for this group of players. But, that's why they need to dump them all. They need a lot of prospects and because the organization has been rn so poorly for so many years they have very few good prospects currently.

 

Which, again, is my point. They need to gut everything and start over the right way. I don't want to watch this crap anymore. I'd rather watch a bunch of excited young kids win 60 games a year for the next few years while we pile up high draft picks, prospects, and develop them the right way.

 

The problem is that Ozzie and KW have a pretty spotty record with developing and nurturing young talent (particularly position players)...especially with Ozzie lacking the willingness usually to play rookies over veteran players.

 

One of the few exceptions to this was the promotion of Beckham so quickly last year, although Ozzie constantly bristled against high expectations being placed on his shoulders.

 

We do have some "decent" examples of at least SPOTTING talent in recent drafts in players like Boone Logan, Clayton Richard, Chris Getz, Chris B. Young, Brandon Allen, Ryan Sweeney and Chris Carter. That's not a bad list.

Edited May 19, 2010 by caulfield12

[SoxFan562004]

I don't see the value in spending $ 100 mil. a year in payroll to continually battle Cleveland and KC to stay out of the AL Central cellar.

 

And, I disagree, there will plent of good prospects to be had for this group of players. But, that's why they need to dump them all. They need a lot of prospects and because the organization has been rn so poorly for so many years they have very few good prospects currently.

 

Which, again, is my point. They need to gut everything and start over the right way. I don't want to watch this crap anymore. I'd rather watch a bunch of excited young kids win 60 games a year for the next few years while we pile up high draft picks, prospects, and develop them the right way.

2 out of the last 5 full seasons the White Sox won the division and in one of those won a WS... now I'm not trying to live off of the WS or give KW and Ozzie a pass, but that is a sky is falling way of wording things.

 

I don't think these vets that would be rent a players would net a ton of high end prospects and why would you trust the same organization that in your own opinion has had trouble developing talent to magically develop a whole crop of talent. Also, even with the best orgs in developing talent is still an inexact science. Having the ability to have a 100m payroll is something that can be used as a great an effective tool in MLB, not something that should be shunned to watch a AAAA team.

 

Again, I'm not giving the org a pass on this year, somethings have went majorly wrong, but again some of the major problems this team has had have been in areas that fans would have rioted if changed, that being their #2 and #3 hitters starting the season and the SPs.

[BigSqwert]

Yes I'm more of a pessimist than anything but we could feasibly be only 5 games back or so after this weekend. As the weather warms up Ramirez starts to hit and yesterday's game gives me hope that Carlos is slowly coming around.

[iamshack]

For those of you demanding big-scale changes, let me ask you this:

 

Are you guys identifying actual benefits to making these changes?

 

I just don't see the point of dismantling a team with a relatively young, solid core for unproven, far away prospects. Or firing a manager that most of the town loves, the press loves, the owner loves, has a solid career winning percentage, etc.

 

Are these just changes to satisfy your impatience? To make a change for change's sake?

 

I'm not ready to make massive, wholesale changes after less than 40 games with this team playing together. Maybe you guys are, because you're accustomed to your video games or whatever. But remember, you start trading everyone away, you can't get these guys back. You can't erase your memory card and start the season over.

 

I'm of the opinion that when these guys start playing like they damn-well should, we may be a small piece or two away from winning something rather than a piece or two away from blowing the whole damn thing up.

[Balta1701]

I'm of the opinion that when these guys start playing like they damn-well should, we may be a small piece or two away from winning something rather than a piece or two away from blowing the whole damn thing up.

The thing that makes it for me is that this really is built as a 1 year roster. Counting Jenks, there are 6 guys I wouldn't expect back next year who are either highly paid or high performers.

 

Jenks

AJ

Konerko

Jones

Putz

Garcia

 

Add in Kotsay, Vizquel, and Castro, and you're talking about overhauling 40% of your roster in the offseason just to tread water. That's a lot easier to do if you turn some of those guys into useful parts beforehand. If they fall too far out of it this season for a small piece to be important, then next offseason, there's still a huge overhaul coming. There's really no way around it.

[iamshack]

The thing that makes it for me is that this really is built as a 1 year roster. Counting Jenks, there are 6 guys I wouldn't expect back next year who are either highly paid or high performers.

 

Jenks

AJ

Konerko

Jones

Putz

Garcia

 

Add in Kotsay, Vizquel, and Castro, and you're talking about overhauling 40% of your roster in the offseason just to tread water. That's a lot easier to do if you turn some of those guys into useful parts beforehand. If they fall too far out of it this season for a small piece to be important, then next offseason, there's still a huge overhaul coming. There's really no way around it.

 

With the current economic landscape of baseball, I don't think that's the worst thing in the world, honestly. The market is vastly undervaluing veteran talent, allowing teams have a bit more turnover with less of a financial impact. The key to me is building a strong, relatively young core, and supplementing that with inexpensive spare parts from the marketplace.

 

Replacing Konerko is a big task, but other than that, I don't view any of those losses as devastating or anything (although I sure wish there was a way to keep Andruw).

[Milkman delivers]

I'm not ready to make massive, wholesale changes after less than 40 games with this team playing together. Maybe you guys are, because you're accustomed to your video games or whatever. But remember, you start trading everyone away, you can't get these guys back. You can't erase your memory card and start the season over.

 

I'm of the opinion that when these guys start playing like they damn-well should, we may be a small piece or two away from winning something rather than a piece or two away from blowing the whole damn thing up.

 

In regards to that first paragraph, I really can't stand pseudo insults like that. I believe in rebuilding because I don't believe in your opinion stated in the second paragraph. I do not think that this team is a small piece away from being a real contender.

[Milkman delivers]

With the current economic landscape of baseball, I don't think that's the worst thing in the world, honestly. The market is vastly undervaluing veteran talent, allowing teams have a bit more turnover with less of a financial impact. The key to me is building a strong, relatively young core, and supplementing that with inexpensive spare parts from the marketplace.

 

Replacing Konerko is a big task, but other than that, I don't view any of those losses as devastating or anything (although I sure wish there was a way to keep Andruw).

 

Wait, this is the same guy who has played two half-seasons in the past two years. And based upon less than two months of baseball, you already want to sign him for 2011? Did you go to the Options menu and choose Injuries: Off on your playstation?

[WCSox]

For those of you demanding big-scale changes, let me ask you this:

 

Are you guys identifying actual benefits to making these changes?

 

I just don't see the point of dismantling a team with a relatively young, solid core for unproven, far away prospects. Or firing a manager that most of the town loves, the press loves, the owner loves, has a solid career winning percentage, etc.

 

Are these just changes to satisfy your impatience? To make a change for change's sake?

 

I'm not ready to make massive, wholesale changes after less than 40 games with this team playing together. Maybe you guys are, because you're accustomed to your video games or whatever. But remember, you start trading everyone away, you can't get these guys back. You can't erase your memory card and start the season over.

 

I'm of the opinion that when these guys start playing like they damn-well should, we may be a small piece or two away from winning something rather than a piece or two away from blowing the whole damn thing up.

 

What if they're still playing like this after 60 games? Or let me put it another way: What evidence to you have that this team won't still be playing like this after 60 games? Was 79 wins last year an example of this team playing "like they damn-well should"?

 

Even an impatient, clueless, video game-playing teenager can correctly recognize that Ozzie's lost his team and that Kenny's "retool on the fly" strategy is unsustainable and has run its course. It's time for this team to put up or shut up. If they don't start playing soon, we're looking at "The Kids Can Play 2" next year. As Balta correctly pointed out, the roster turnover alone will force a major overhaul. Even if Kenny gives PK an extension (which I think he should) and spends a little in FA in the off-season, JR has already made it clear that they're going to pull back on payroll next year.

 

Replacing Konerko is a big task, but other than that, I don't view any of those losses as devastating or anything (although I sure wish there was a way to keep Andruw).

 

You're missing the point. There aren't ML-ready players in-house to step up and replace these guys. Flowers, D2, and Viciedo aren't ready, and all will go through growing pains when they are. Beckham is in a massive sophomore slump and, while I expect that he'll eventually hit like Robin Ventura, he may not become that player for a couple more years. So, at best, you're looking at more of the same next year. With ownership constricting payroll, FA spending won't be enough to cover the FA losses.

 

While the Sox have done a phenomenal job of developing young pitching, their inability to develop young hitters is killing them. Quentin and Alexei have regressed over the past 2+ years. Viciedo, D2, and the others are all still at least a year away. When your post-30 veterans are ready to hit free agency and your young hitters either aren't producing in the bigs or are at least a year away in the minors, and you can't spend your way to the playoffs via free agency, there's no getting around it: You need to take a step back and rebuild.

 

[Milkman delivers]

What if they're still playing like this after 60 games? Or let me put it another way: What evidence to you have that this team won't still be playing like this after 60 games? Was 79 wins last year an example of this team playing "like they damn-well should"?

 

Even an impatient, clueless, video game-playing teenager can correctly recognize that Ozzie's lost his team and that Kenny's "retool on the fly" strategy is unsustainable and has run its course. It's time for this team to put up or shut up. If they don't start playing soon, we're looking at "The Kids Can Play 2" next year. As Balta correctly pointed out, the roster turnover alone will force a major overhaul. Even if Kenny gives PK an extension (which I think he should) and spends a little in FA in the off-season, JR has already made it clear that they're going to pull back on payroll next year.

 

 

 

You're missing the point. There aren't ML-ready players in-house to step up and replace these guys. Flowers, D2, and Viciedo aren't ready, and all will go through growing pains when they are. Beckham is in a massive sophomore slump and, while I expect that he'll eventually hit like Robin Ventura, he may not become that player for a couple more years. So, at best, you're looking at more of the same next year. With ownership constricting payroll, FA spending won't be enough to cover the FA losses.

 

While the Sox have done a phenomenal job of developing young pitching, their inability to develop young hitters is killing them. Quentin and Alexei have regressed over the past 2+ years. Viciedo, D2, and the others are all still at least a year away. When your post-30 veterans are ready to hit free agency and your young hitters either aren't producing in the bigs or are at least a year away in the minors, and you can't spend your way to the playoffs via free agency, there's no getting around it: You need to take a step back and rebuild.

 

I've noticed that people are always willing to make changes, but it's always *insert random time in the future*, not right now. And then when that random time comes, for a lot of people it is suddenly wait until *insert new random time in the future*.

[WCSox]

I've noticed that people are always willing to make changes, but it's always *insert random time in the future*, not right now. And then when that random time comes, for a lot of people it is suddenly wait until *insert new random time in the future*.

 

Hell, I agree with shack that Kenny should wait a while before committing to a firesale (I'd say at least another 30 days). But it's silly to chide people who, after a full month and a half of bad baseball, see absolutely zero evidence that this team will play competitively and understand the realities of our farm system, FA status of key players, and future payroll constrictions.

 

Edited May 19, 2010 by WCSox