Unload...

[Balta1701]

Next time, the focus needs to be on the "sure" thing. This organization is in a very dire place.

Like Beckham, our can't miss prospect?

[iamshack]

Like Beckham, our can't miss prospect?

Exactly. This is what I was trying to get to yesterday when I asked Milkman who our two biggest culprits in the offense have been.

 

Quentin and Beckham. Two highly, highly rated prospects who have been going through their fair share of growing pains.

 

For all of those who are advocating trading away the core for prospects, Q and Gordo are two prime examples of why rebuilding can be incredibly frustrating and frightening.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Exactly. This is what I was trying to get to yesterday when I asked Milkman who our two biggest culprits in the offense have been.

 

Quentin and Beckham. Two highly, highly rated prospects who have been going through their fair share of growing pains.

 

For all of those who are advocating trading away the core for prospects, Q and Gordo are two prime examples of why rebuilding can be incredibly frustrating and frightening.

 

Alexei Ramirez has been every bit as disappointing as CQ AND Beckham. Like I said in the game-thread, I've never seen 3 young seemingly ultra-talented players from the same team fall into the baseball abyss of suckage so rapidly. It's really disheartening when you see teams like the Rays, Rangers and Tigers spitting out legitimate young talent in droves.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Jordan4life

[hawksox13]

IF the Sox decide to become sellers and blow this team up, I thought it may be interesting to discuss who would be the most likely to be traded and who would bring back the most talent in a trade.

 

Most likely to be traded if the Sox blow this team up:

1. A.J. Pierzynski - There is already interest out there, a contender would surely bite

2. Andruw Jones - Very affordable bat that can add value to a team looking for some power

3. J.J. Putz - solid reliever that could help out any contenders bullpen

4. Paul Konerko - Paulie would have to waive the no trade, but probably would for a contender

5. Freddy Garcia - If he wasn't family he'd be a couple notches higher on this list

6. Bobby Jenks - Expensive reliever, but team would control Bobby into next season as well

7. Alex Rios - Expensive bat, but playing like an all star

8. Mark Buehrle - If the Sox decide they don't want to pay Mark $14M next season teams would be interested

9. Jake Peavy - Very expensive contract, has to pitch better to make his contract doable for teams

10. Juan Pierre - Outside shot that a contending team may take a shot on Pierre, Sox would pay some of his salary

11. Scott Linebrink - A team would really need bullpen help to take on even half of this contract

 

My personal opinion is if you know you're out of it this season but want to try and contend next year again you can only trade your expiring deals (Pierzynski, Jones, Putz, Konerko). Hold onto Buehrle, Peavy, Rios, and Pierre and try to make some adjustments and make a run again next season.

 

Most Value in return if the player is traded:

1. Mark Buehrle

2. Jake Peavy

3. Paul Konerko

4. Alex Rios

5. A.J. Pierzynski

6. Andruw Jones -

7. J.J. Putz - could be higher on the list since relievers are always in high demand at the trade deadline

8. Bobby Jenks

9. Freddy Garcia

10. Juan Pierre - would be more of a salary dump. Would have to throw in a bit more money than the Dodgers are already paying

11. Scott Linebrink - would be a salary dump in which the Sox would have to pay at least half of the remaining salary

 

I won't attempt to guess what level prospect(s) each player would bring back to the Sox if traded, only the overall value of each player for being traded. I'm not suggesting that all of these guys are likely to be traded. At most I think we'll see five guys traded, which is still quite a bit.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I can't believe some are advocating trading Alex Rios. lol. He's only the best all-around player this team has had in about 8 years.

[Balta1701]

Most Value in return if the player is traded:

1. Mark Buehrle

2. Jake Peavy

3. Paul Konerko

4. Alex Rios

5. A.J. Pierzynski

6. Andruw Jones -

7. J.J. Putz - could be higher on the list since relievers are always in high demand at the trade deadline

8. Bobby Jenks

9. Freddy Garcia

10. Juan Pierre - would be more of a salary dump. Would have to throw in a bit more money than the Dodgers are already paying

11. Scott Linebrink - would be a salary dump in which the Sox would have to pay at least half of the remaining salary

 

I like your list of guys likely to move but I think you're off here. I think Buehrle is at the top of the list in terms of asking price, but that's because of emotional attachment to the team more than anything else. I put Rios above Peavy as well, because his contract actually costs less and he's performing at or above it. Buehrle and Peavy are currently under-playing their contracts,w hich also hurts them.

 

If you really want to say "Which guy on the Sox brings the most return if you trade him right now", the answer is D1: the pitching Danks.

[hawksox13]

I like your list of guys likely to move but I think you're off here. I think Buehrle is at the top of the list in terms of asking price, but that's because of emotional attachment to the team more than anything else. I put Rios above Peavy as well, because his contract actually costs less and he's performing at or above it. Buehrle and Peavy are currently under-playing their contracts,w hich also hurts them.

 

If you really want to say "Which guy on the Sox brings the most return if you trade him right now", the answer is D1: the pitching Danks.

 

I wasn't even thinking trading the Sox youngest and most talented pitcher would even be thought of as a trading chip, even if he's set to get a huge raise come arbitration time. You're probably right about Rios over Peavy. He probably would bring back more in a trade.

 

To clarify, I'm not suggesting that the Sox make all of these moves. I'm just putting it out there as to who may be moved and if moved, what those players would be worth. I want the Sox to keep Rios, Danks, Buehrle and Peavy. If I were the Sox I'd look to move Pierzynksi, Konerko, Andruw Jones, Freddy Garcia, J.J. Putz and Bobby Jenks. I wouldn't just give these guys away, but I'd be very open to listening to offers.

Edited May 20, 2010 by hawksox13

[southsider2k5]

I like your list of guys likely to move but I think you're off here. I think Buehrle is at the top of the list in terms of asking price, but that's because of emotional attachment to the team more than anything else. I put Rios above Peavy as well, because his contract actually costs less and he's performing at or above it. Buehrle and Peavy are currently under-playing their contracts,w hich also hurts them.

 

If you really want to say "Which guy on the Sox brings the most return if you trade him right now", the answer is D1: the pitching Danks.

 

Welcome to the bandwagon. Of all of the moves that could happen, this is the one that would surprise the most people, but make the most sense if we are truly going to rebuild.

[WCSox]

Quentin and Beckham. Two highly, highly rated prospects who have been going through their fair share of growing pains.

 

For all of those who are advocating trading away the core for prospects, Q and Gordo are two prime examples of why rebuilding can be incredibly frustrating and frightening.

 

I don't know why you're comparing Quentin to Beckham. Q is 27 and played significant time in the bigs years before Kenny acquired him. Dude's in the prime of his career and should be producing NOW. Beckham is 23 and doesn't even have a full season's worth of at-bats under his belt.

 

Having lived through the late '80s, I acutely aware of how painful rebuilding can be. That said, I'd rather go through that again than than a string of 80-82 seasons where you're not competitive AND you don't get any high draft picks.

 

What every team seeks to do is establish a strong core from which to build around for a sustained period of time. I like our core. I guess that is where we disagree.

 

I like our starting pitching... a lot. But offensively, I think that Rios and Beckham are the only players who will regularly hit in the 110+ OPS range. This team needs more balance. However, I do agree that, whatever happens in the next couple of years, Peavy, Danks, Rios, and Beckham should all be retained. If Kenny does hold a firesale, I'd much rather see older players near the end of their contracts (PK, AJ, MB, etc.) being moved.

 

[Balta1701]

Welcome to the bandwagon. Of all of the moves that could happen, this is the one that would surprise the most people, but make the most sense if we are truly going to rebuild.

It depends on your definition of "Rebuild." If your definition of Rebuild involves competing in 2011, then you don't. If your definition of rebuild focuses on 2012, then its probably the right move.

 

FWIW, I'd say the inverse for Rios. If your definition of rebuild involves competing in 2011, I think he's the guy you try to move. If your definition of rebuilding focuses on 2012, I think you hold him, since, even if he's expensive, he's signed for so long. How's that for a wierd shift?

[Milkman delivers]

Oh come on man, I'm being condescending?

 

As for the early 90's teams, are you claiming that we traded veterans like Baines and Seaver, etc., for draft picks? Or are you arguing that we need to be worse now so we can get better draft picks like we had back then? I think it's the latter, so in fact your model is to suck for 6 years straight and rebuild via the high draft picks? I don't really consider that to be an option.

 

The Sox struck gold with Thomas, who turned out to be one of the best right-handed hitters of all time. I'm not going to count on another Big Hurt coming along in the draft in the next few years (or at least not enough to justify sucking for several years for the incredibly minimal chance of one coming along AND being the team that happens to draft him). Ventura was a great player, but nothing that can't be found at #25 in the draft if we pay overslot money for players that fall. Fernandez and Alvarez were great pitchers for the White Sox, but if you remember our farm system later on in the 90's and early 2000's, for every Fernandez and Alvarez we had in the early 90's, there were countless other busts that never panned out into anything later on. I remember toward the end of Schuler's tenure and at the beginning of Williams', we had a top 3 farm system in baseball. That vaunted farm system yielded almost nothing, outside of maybe Mike Sirotka. It's just no sure thing to rely on prospects IMO, any more so than it is to acquire undervalued players in the market as we currently have been doing.

 

I still like our core, despite the setbacks suffered thus far this season, and I think blowing the whole thing up would be taking some unnecessary steps back at this point. We may indeed have to sell off parts this season, such as PK, Jones, AJ, Jenks, Putz, etc., but that doesn't mean a rebuild is the next logical step. Rather, you re-evaluate, plug in some current prospects such as Flowers, Danks, Viciedo, as well as the prospects acquired via the trades of veterans, and then look to add through free agency again next offseason. But from what I understand, many of you guys are advocating moving Mark, Jake, Rios, Quentin, Alexei, Danks, and Gavin and reloading the entire organization with prospects and using our sustained period of failure to build through the drafts with higher picks. I simply can't advocate that at this point in time.

 

What every team seeks to do is establish a strong core from which to build around for a sustained period of time. I like our core. I guess that is where we disagree.

 

Actually, the last five (I believe that is the number) times the White Sox had a top 10 pick in the draft, they struck gold. They have a good track record of drafting in the top 10.

 

Exactly. This is what I was trying to get to yesterday when I asked Milkman who our two biggest culprits in the offense have been.

 

Quentin and Beckham. Two highly, highly rated prospects who have been going through their fair share of growing pains.

 

For all of those who are advocating trading away the core for prospects, Q and Gordo are two prime examples of why rebuilding can be incredibly frustrating and frightening.

 

I don't think you even responded to that post.

[Milkman delivers]

I can't believe some are advocating trading Alex Rios. lol. He's only the best all-around player this team has had in about 8 years.

 

It depends on how long you think it would take to rebuild.

[iamshack]

Actually, the last five (I believe that is the number) times the White Sox had a top 10 pick in the draft, they struck gold. They have a good track record of drafting in the top 10.

 

 

 

I don't think you even responded to that post.

Well, I was referring to the fact that Thomas was a once-in-a-generation type player. He carried us through the 90's. Do you really want to depend on finding another Frank Thomas in the next few drafts?

 

As for responding to your post Milk, sorry, my mom was in town visiting and I had to go to the Outlet Mall yesterday when we got into our discussion. Some of my responses were from my phone. Couldn't participate as much as I would have liked.

[BigSqwert]

Well, I was referring to the fact that Thomas was a once-in-a-generation type player. He carried us through the 90's. Do you really want to depend on finding another Frank Thomas in the next few drafts?

 

As for responding to your post Milk, sorry, my mom was in town visiting and I had to go to the Outlet Mall yesterday when we got into our discussion. Some of my responses were from my phone. Couldn't participate as much as I would have liked.

Soxtalk always comes before family.

[iamshack]

Soxtalk always comes before family.

Hah, I was making her wait while I was arguing...

[LittleHurt05]

Actually, the last five (I believe that is the number) times the White Sox had a top 10 pick in the draft, they struck gold. They have a good track record of drafting in the top 10.

 

The last 5 times they had a top 10 pick were 1987, 88, 89, 90, & 2008, so I don't know how relevant draft success over 20 years ago is when talking about today.

Edited May 20, 2010 by LittleHurt05

[WCSox]

Well, I was referring to the fact that Thomas was a once-in-a-generation type player. He carried us through the 90's. Do you really want to depend on finding another Frank Thomas in the next few drafts?

 

Actually, it was the pitching that carried the successful '90s Sox teams. Once that began to thin out (ca. 1995), the Sox stopped winning. Claiming that Frank was the main reason for the Sox's success in the '90s and implying that it would've been impossible without his "once-in-a-generation" talent is incorrect. Albert Belle had the best offensive season in Sox history and he didn't help the '98 team win anything.

 

I think that the Sox are a safe bet to draft another Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, and Alex Fernandez at some point in our lifetimes. I'm also pretty sure that they'd be able to find Latin American free agent players comparable to Maggs and Carlos Lee at some point during our lives.

Edited May 20, 2010 by WCSox

[dyuen]

I like your list of guys likely to move but I think you're off here. I think Buehrle is at the top of the list in terms of asking price, but that's because of emotional attachment to the team more than anything else. I put Rios above Peavy as well, because his contract actually costs less and he's performing at or above it. Buehrle and Peavy are currently under-playing their contracts,w hich also hurts them.

 

If you really want to say "Which guy on the Sox brings the most return if you trade him right now", the answer is D1: the pitching Danks.

i really dont think jones is going to get you anything in a trade. i dont see much interest in him.

[ThunderBolt]

Like Beckham, our can't miss prospect?

I wasn't referring to Beckham. I was talk about installing a new 3b, a rotating DH, and filling a bench with a bunch of guys whom we had to cross our fingers to produce results.

[WCSox]

i really dont think jones is going to get you anything in a trade. i dont see much interest in him.

 

He's not going to command a top-tier prospect. But if he stays healthy and reasonably productive, the Sox will get something halfway decent for him. He's owed next to nothing through the remainder of the year and his pre-injury track record is pretty impressive.

 

[iamshack]

Actually, it was the pitching that carried the successful '90s Sox teams. Once that began to thin out (ca. 1995), the Sox stopped winning. Claiming that Frank was the main reason for the Sox's success in the '90s and implying that it would've been impossible without his "once-in-a-generation" talent is incorrect. Albert Belle had the best offensive season in Sox history and he didn't help the '98 team win anything.

 

I think that the Sox are a safe bet to draft another Robin Ventura, Jack McDowell, and Alex Fernandez at some point in our lifetimes. I'm also pretty sure that they'd be able to find Latin American free agent players comparable to Maggs and Carlos Lee at some point during our lives.

Ok, now you are just looking to argue.

 

Right....the best hitter in franchise history and one of the probably best 10 hitters or so of all time didn't carry a big part of the load. Ok.

[hogan873]

All this losing by the White Sox is turning us against each other. Why can't we all get along!?

 

Let's all have a beer and agree that this season is in trouble.

[dyuen]

Ok, now you are just looking to argue.

 

Right....the best hitter in franchise history and one of the probably best 10 hitters or so of all time didn't carry a big part of the load. Ok.

cmon man you know that all of franks hits were in meaningless situations!!

[Milkman delivers]

I wasn't referring to Beckham. I was talk about installing a new 3b, a rotating DH, and filling a bench with a bunch of guys whom we had to cross our fingers to produce results.

 

Like Nix?

[ThunderBolt]

Like Nix?

Nix is the last man off the bench, so no. We have a lot of problems, the root of it is not the guy who lucked into a 25-man roster spot because KW couldn't bring in a big fish.