NBA Offseason Thread

[fathom]

Is that billboard real?

[ZoomSlowik]

Your right, there is a big difference, but there are ELITE players and there are Good to very good players. There are very few elite players and there are very many good to very good players, either way you look at it, there are going to be some good to very good players on the all star roster. This would mean that they are an all-star, injury fill-in or not. So if Mo Williams makes the all-star team, that means he was in consideration to be on the all-star team all along, just missed it by a player or two depending on who the bench players are.

 

I am not arguing that Mo Williams is this great player and saying that James has had amazing help, all I am saying is James has had some good players at his side at various times in his career who have been all-stars at some point while others are saying he has had no NO HELP. This is not true

 

From a championship-winning perspective, he had NO help. When was the last time someone won a title without at least two elite players? You have to go back to Hakeem in 93-94 (which also happened right after the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons broke up and Michael retired, pretty weak year). I don't know when the previous time before that was, it was well before my time.

 

One great player and a bunch of average to above average guys doesn't mean you have a championship-caliber core. It hasn't worked for Lebron, it didn't work for Garnett, it didn't work for Kobe, 99% of the time it just doesn't work.

[HuskyCaucasian]

Cavs = stupid (or liars).

 

Don't you have to have a Plan B in EVERYTHING in life?

Most GM's say they keep a backup list for just about everything.

[RockRaines]

HAHA! Check out Lebron's mega-billboard in Cleveland.

photochop.

[clyons]

<!--quoteo(post=2204384:date=Jul 9, 2010 -> 12:24 PM:name=BigSqwert)-->

<!--quotec-->he is the ultimate douche reporter.

 

Believe me, I'm no fan.

 

But getting paid by your interview subject is such an obvious conflict that it takes his jaggery to another level.

[RockRaines]

From a championship-winning perspective, he had NO help. When was the last time someone won a title without at least two elite players? You have to go back to Hakeem in 93-94 (which also happened right after the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons broke up and Michael retired, pretty weak year). I don't know when the previous time before that was, it was well before my time.

 

One great player and a bunch of average to above average guys doesn't mean you have a championship-caliber core. It hasn't worked for Lebron, it didn't work for Garnett, it didn't work for Kobe, 99% of the time it just doesn't work.

LeBron's age is a huge difference in this whole conversation. Who knows if Cle couldnt draft or acquire a future #2 guy for him. Shoot, people were already talking about CP3 joining him in Cle. It could have happened for him for sure.

[daa84]

christ whats even worse is that douche chill scheyer is going to be on that heat team too

[DrunkBomber]

From a championship-winning perspective, he had NO help. When was the last time someone won a title without at least two elite players? You have to go back to Hakeem in 93-94 (which also happened right after the Celtics/Lakers/Pistons broke up and Michael retired, pretty weak year). I don't know when the previous time before that was, it was well before my time.

 

One great player and a bunch of average to above average guys doesn't mean you have a championship-caliber core. It hasn't worked for Lebron, it didn't work for Garnett, it didn't work for Kobe, 99% of the time it just doesn't work.

You can easily argue the Pistons that won a ring earlier this decade didnt have any ELITE players.

[IamtheHBOMB]

To all the people freaking out in the thread:

 

Yea, this situation f***ing sucks, but the NBA isn't 3 on 3 basketball. You need quality depth to win. Miami's big three is gonna play a ton of minutes next year because their bench is going to suck balls.

 

People are completely ignoring the fact that Rose and Noah will continue to get better too. Add in the fact that we will have a defensive guru as the head coach and things are looking pretty bright.

[ZoomSlowik]

LeBron's age is a huge difference in this whole conversation. Who knows if Cle couldnt draft or acquire a future #2 guy for him. Shoot, people were already talking about CP3 joining him in Cle. It could have happened for him for sure.

 

Unless they got a Gasol-level gift the way the Lakers did, it probably wasn't happening. The odds of finding a stud in the draft when you're picking in the 20's is extremely low, and they don't have nearly enough talented young assets to pull of a trade of fair value for someone like Paul or Anthony.

 

The Cavs are/were in a very tough spot, they're pretty much capped out (yeah, I know they have $9 mil right now, not enough to do anything major), their team is mostly older vets or role players because they were trying to build around Lebron, and their best young player is JJ Hickson, a guy who MIGHT give you 12-8 in starters minutes.

 

They were still competitive with him, but I can see how he might have been tired of trying to carry the team for another 6 years trying to beat guys like Kobe and Wade that have more help on their roster. I probably would have re-signed with a 3-year opt out option or gone to Chicago personally, but that's a seperate issue.

Edited July 9, 2010 by ZoomSlowik

[ZoomSlowik]

You can easily argue the Pistons that won a ring earlier this decade didnt have any ELITE players.

 

Depends on your definition of "elite". None of them were top-10 players in the league, but Wallace was the best defensive player in the league, Billups was a top-5 point guard, and Hamilton and Rasheed were both in the 5-10 range at their position that season (though both had been higher in other seasons). They definitely weren't the typical championship team, but they also had four highly legit talents and a very nice #5 starter in Prince. They definitely had a far more legitimately good players than the Cavs, and Lebron still beat them in the conference finals.

Edited July 9, 2010 by ZoomSlowik

[danman31]

christ whats even worse is that douche chill scheyer is going to be on that heat team too

What's wrong with Scheyer? Just that he played for Duke?

[daa84]

What's wrong with Scheyer? Just that he played for Duke?

well i see you are from northbrook and anything i say won't matter, but yes being the annoying white guy on duke has an enormous amount to do with it, as well as spurning illinois/weber

[daa84]

probably NSFW (language)

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

Depends on your definition of "elite". None of them were top-10 players in the league, but Wallace was the best defensive player in the league, Billups was a top-5 point guard, and Hamilton and Rasheed were both in the 5-10 range at their position. They had four highly legit talents.

 

 

wallace was definitely not a top 5 player at the time, the only argument you have is billups could qualify as a top 5. Piston won with 4 above average players, and 1 great player. There was no elite player on that team.

 

You can even argue that the spurs team in 2003 won with only 1 elite player, that year Manu was only a rookie, Parker was not any better than mo williams, David Robinson was in worse shape than shaq. Duncan was the only elite player on the team and that team was dominating.

 

In 2005 Finals run, Spurs again only had the big three in Duncan, Parker and Manu. Parker and Manu being borderline allstars, similar to Mo Williams and Jamison, if not worse.

 

2007, you can argue the same case for the Spurs, though Ginobili and Parker became very good players that year.

 

I am sick of people defending Lebron because he didn't have help. He had a multiple time all star in Jamison, an 20-9 threat on a nightly basis with good range, Mo Williams, a sharp shooter and replacement Allstar, one of the best defensive big man in the league in Varejao, a fading but still overpowering Shaq, and other solid role players in West, Moon, Hickson and so on. That team was as good if not better than the 2003, 2005 Spurs, and better than the 2005 pistons.

 

It's funny that when the Cavs acquired Jamison, the whole bleeping media goes like oh Jamison is the best player James has played with, pairing him with Lebron, Shaq, and Mo will make the Cavs favorite to win the East and possibly get them past the Lakers, but when they lost in the second round, people had to again make excuses for him for not having a great team.

 

like reading Woj's article earlier, Lebron knows he can't win on his own, he can't be the main guy on a Championship team, he needs a closer, and that guy is Wade. What a wuss.

Edited July 9, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[Palehosefan]

I disagree with a ton of stuff on here, but this has been my favorite thread in a long, long time.

[DrunkBomber]

Depends on your definition of "elite". None of them were top-10 players in the league, but you could argue that Billups, Hamilton and Rasheed were all among the top-5 players at their position at the time, and while he couldn't score at all Big Ben was the best defensive player in the league.

 

Edit- scratch that on Hamilton, he was clearly 7th at best. Still a highly useful player though.

I agree for the most part. It just shows that there are different formulas to build championship teams. You dont NEED to have 2 superstars in order to win. Its not like Detroit is the most appealing place to want to go play/live either so they had to make due.

 

Another good example is the way San Antonio built their dynasty. They had their superstar in Duncan and added pieces over the years. I know San Antonio isnt as bad as Cleveland in terms of desirability but it also isnt Chicago/LA/Boston/NY. Tony Parker is a great player dont get me wrong, and Ginobili played an important role on the championship teams but neither is a top 10 player in the league and both of them benefited greatly from playing with Tim Duncan. Does LeBron not have the potential to be better then Duncan? Do guys like Jamison and Williams have less of an impact on games then Manu Ginobili? Is it out of the realm of possibility for the Cavs to land someone like CP3 or even someone who simply can give you what Parker gave the Spurs? I guess we will never know. I know its not as easy as just going to Miami and helping Wade build his legacy with the team that drafted him and thats the point. It might not have been easy but its certainly not impossible or even unlikely. Its not like the Cavs were bottom feeders. Theyve been to the finals and had the best record in the league the past 2 years. The Cavs were a player or two away from being perennial champs every year. The satisfaction of bringing one ring to his home city should greatly over weigh helping Wade win more rings in Miami.

 

Also, look what the Lakers have went through to build their current team since Shaq left. I know Gasol is a superstar now but he was merely an underachiever on a bad team that he couldnt carry before he went to the Lakers. Playing with Kobe and being on a better team made him into a better player. Is it not reasonable to think the Cavs could have plucked a good player off a bad team at some point in the next year or so like the Lakers did? The rest of the Lakers roster is mostly good role players and then a successful gamble on resident nutjob Ron Artest.

 

Ill even go as far as to use the Celtics as another example. Their Wade/Duncan/Kobe guy Paul Pierce rode it out there on some terrible teams and finally earned a championship. Garnett stuck in Minnesota for like 12 years before being traded to Boston and winning his ring. Id venture to say a lot of T wolves fans were happy to see KG get his ring too and werent in the streets burning his jersey.

 

There are different ways to build championship teams and what Miami is doing is definitely one of them, but looking back on some teams that have won recently its wrong to say LeBron would never have won in Cleveland.

[IamtheHBOMB]

I've been reading articles and reactions to what happened last night and realized something. LeBron will be hated in Cleveland FOR ETERNITY.

 

I was in Cleveland a couple years ago to see the Sox play. At one point, I was in a cab getting a ride back to my hotel. The cabbie was chatting me up until he realized that I was a Chicagoan and Sox fan. The guy immediately brought up Thome and began ranting about what a sack of s*** he thought he was. I swear the guy was spitting bile.

 

I could understand being upset about someone bailing on your favorite team, but it was years in the past. PLUS IT'S JIM THOME. He's pretty much the nicest man on the planet (I can confirm this because I ran into Thome on this same trip).

 

It was LeBron's idea to teabag Cleveland on national TV. LBJ better hire some protection for his games in Cleveland next year.

Edited July 9, 2010 by IamtheHBOMB

[ZoomSlowik]

wallace was definitely not a top 5 player at the time, the only argument you have is billups could qualify as a top 5. Piston won with 4 above average players, and 1 great player. There was no elite player on that team.

 

You can even argue that the spurs team in 2003 won with only 1 elite player, that year Manu was only a rookie, Parker was not any better than mo williams, David Robinson was in worse shape than shaq. Duncan was the only elite player on the team and that team was dominating.

 

In 2005 Finals run, Spurs again only had the big three in Duncan, Parker and Manu. Parker and Manu being borderline allstars, similar to Mo Williams and Jamison, if not worse.

 

2007, you can argue the same case for the Spurs, though Ginobili and Parker became very good players that year.

 

I am sick of people defending Lebron because he didn't have help. He had a multiple time all star in Jamison, an 20-9 threat on a nightly basis with good range, Mo Williams, a sharp shooter and replacement Allstar, one of the best defensive big man in the league in Varejao, a fading but still overpowering Shaq, and other solid role players in West, Moon, Hickson and so on. That team was as good if not better than the 2003, 2005 Spurs, and better than the 2005 pistons.

 

It's funny that when the Cavs acquired Jamison, the whole bleeping media goes like oh Jamison is the best player James has played with, pairing him with Lebron, Shaq, and Mo will make the Cavs favorite to win the East and possibly get them past the Lakers, but when they lost in the second round, people had to again make excuses for him for not having a great team.

 

like reading Woj's article earlier, Lebron knows he can't win on his own, he can't be the main guy on a Championship team, he needs a closer, and that guy is Wade. What a wuss.

 

The Pistons probably had four of the top-50 players in the league at the time, including a defensive player of the year caliber defender. It was definitely a differently constructed team, but they still clearly had elite-level talent.

 

I guess you have a point on the 2003 Spurs, I obviously didn't check basketball reference before making that comment and mistakenly assumed Manu was at his peak. That said, I'd still take Parker over any non-Lebron Cav.

 

2005 and 2007 Spurs you definitely can't argue that Duncan didn't have some pretty major help. You still have Parker, who is (maybe was?) an outstanding driving guard and Manu was one of the most talented guards in the league.

 

Look at Manu's stats again, over his career he's averaged 15-4-4 in only 28 MPG because the Spurs often rested him for the playoffs. He was DEFINITELY an impact player that could easily put up 20-5-5 in more minutes per game on a weaker team. If you look at his PER, he has been in the 22-24 range since 04/05, which is on the level of an elite player.

 

You are DRASTICALLY overrating this Cavs' team sans-Lebron.

 

First of all, he had Jamison for about half a year even when you factor in playoffs. There's still 6 1/2 seasons out of his career without Jamison. He has some good offensive skills, but is not a good defender.

 

Mo Williams is a decent player, but has disappeared in the playoffs and isn't going to create a lot of positive plays on his own. Varejao is a nice role player, but hardly "one of the best defensive big men in the league". He is a successful position defender but is not a game-changing shot-blocking type big man. Shaq is hardly "overpowering" any more, more like extremely slow. He can't even stay on the floor for more than about 25 MPG. And why do people keep saying "role players" like West, Moon and Hickson like that's a good thing? Those guys aren't even average NBA players and are highly replaceable.

 

There's a reason this team is going to struggle to win 30 games next year without Lebron, it's because they're not very good players. Williams and Jamison were relatively irrelevant players on mediocre/poor teams before coming to Cleveland and that's what they will be once again.

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree for the most part. It just shows that there are different formulas to build championship teams. You dont NEED to have 2 superstars in order to win. Its not like Detroit is the most appealing place to want to go play/live either so they had to make due.

 

Another good example is the way San Antonio built their dynasty. They had their superstar in Duncan and added pieces over the years. I know San Antonio isnt as bad as Cleveland in terms of desirability but it also isnt Chicago/LA/Boston/NY. Tony Parker is a great player dont get me wrong, and Ginobili played an important role on the championship teams but neither is a top 10 player in the league and both of them benefited greatly from playing with Tim Duncan. Does LeBron not have the potential to be better then Duncan? Do guys like Jamison and Williams have less of an impact on games then Manu Ginobili? Is it out of the realm of possibility for the Cavs to land someone like CP3 or even someone who simply can give you what Parker gave the Spurs? I guess we will never know. I know its not as easy as just going to Miami and helping Wade build his legacy with the team that drafted him and thats the point. It might not have been easy but its certainly not impossible or even unlikely. Its not like the Cavs were bottom feeders. Theyve been to the finals and had the best record in the league the past 2 years. The Cavs were a player or two away from being perennial champs every year. The satisfaction of bringing one ring to his home city should greatly over weigh helping Wade win more rings in Miami.

 

Also, look what the Lakers have went through to build their current team since Shaq left. I know Gasol is a superstar now but he was merely an underachiever on a bad team that he couldnt carry before he went to the Lakers. Playing with Kobe and being on a better team made him into a better player. Is it not reasonable to think the Cavs could have plucked a good player off a bad team at some point in the next year or so like the Lakers did? The rest of the Lakers roster is mostly good role players and then a successful gamble on resident nutjob Ron Artest.

 

Ill even go as far as to use the Celtics as another example. Their Wade/Duncan/Kobe guy Paul Pierce rode it out there on some terrible teams and finally earned a championship. Garnett stuck in Minnesota for like 12 years before being traded to Boston and winning his ring. Id venture to say a lot of T wolves fans were happy to see KG get his ring too and werent in the streets burning his jersey.

 

There are different ways to build championship teams and what Miami is doing is definitely one of them, but looking back on some teams that have won recently its wrong to say LeBron would never have won in Cleveland.

 

A few responses...

 

1) Yes, Ginobili and Parker have a better impact than Williams and Jamison. Manu is an extremely talented player that probably would have been considered a star at least on par with an Andre Iguodala if he didn't end up playing 28 MPG for Duncan's Spurs. Parker had also been an elite driving guard, though I'm not sure he is any more. Those two guys are quite adept at creating their own shots with regularity and efficiency, Williams and Jamison not so much.

 

2) It would be very hard for the Cavs to add an elite player by trade or in the draft because they simply don't have any assets.

 

3) You're underrating Gasol a bit, he's an awful lot like Bosh. Pau had been a star player before he ever got to LA (not sure how he only made one All-Star game, injuries? Loaded western conference?) and was the clear best player on three playoff teams. He just didn't have much talent around him, as guys like James Posey and Mike Miller were key scorers for them rather than the bench players/fifth starters they should be.

 

That trade to get Gasol was by far the lowest amount of talent I've seen given up for a good player, I don't think you can count on that happening again.

 

4) I didn't say he'd have NEVER won in Cleveland, it'd have just been really hard and a few things would have had to go right. I think he looked at the team Kobe had in LA and two guys he respected a lot in Wade and Bosh getting together in Miami and didn't like his chances. Yeah, you could argue it was the wusses way out, but if he had stayed and not won anything he'd basically be another Karl Malone.

Edited July 9, 2010 by ZoomSlowik

[danman31]

well i see you are from northbrook and anything i say won't matter, but yes being the annoying white guy on duke has an enormous amount to do with it, as well as spurning illinois/weber

He had always been a Duke fan, Illinois never had a shot.

[daa84]

He had always been a Duke fan, Illinois never had a shot.

all the more reason for me to dislike him

[DrunkBomber]

A few responses...

 

1) Yes, Ginobili and Parker have a better impact than Williams and Jamison. Manu is an extremely talented player that probably would have been considered a star at least on par with an Andre Iguodala if he didn't end up playing 28 MPG for Duncan's Spurs. Parker had also been an elite driving guard, though I'm not sure he is any more. Those two guys are quite adept at creating their own shots with regularity and efficiency, Williams and Jamison not so much.

 

2) It would be very hard for the Cavs to add an elite player by trade or in the draft because they simply don't have any assets.

 

3) You're underrating Gasol a bit, he's an awful lot like Bosh. Pau had been a star player before he ever got to LA (not sure how he only made one All-Star game, injuries? Loaded western conference) and was the clear best player on three playoff teams. He just didn't have much talent around him, as guys like James Posey and Mike Miller were key scorers for them rather than the bench players/fifth starters they should be.

 

That trade to get Gasol was by far the lowest amount of talent I've seen given up for a good player, I don't think you can count on that happening again.

 

4) I didn't say he'd have NEVER won in Cleveland, it'd have just been really hard and a few things would have had to go right. I think he looked at the team Kobe had in LA and two guys he respected a lot in Wade and Bosh getting together in Miami and didn't like his chances. Yeah, you could argue it was the wusses way out, but if he had stayed and not won anything he'd basically be another Karl Malone.

I tried to make clear in my OP that I wasnt lumping Parker in with the Jamison/Williams comparisons. It probably got jumbled in everything. I was saying they can give you what Manu gave the Spurs and said I dont think it would be unreasonable to find someone else somewhere that could give them what Parker gave the Spurs. I realize the Cavs have nobody on the roster at Parkers caliber talent wise and was trying to say I dont think a player with a similar skill set couldnt be brought in within the next year or two.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Palehose, you're my boy, but you're a Heat fan. There's no way for you to be objective. This isn't Bulls fans picking on Lebron. This is EVERYBODY calling it what it is. You're bringing up Jordan and Magic and Kobe and any other superstar who won a title with great players as some defense for Lebron. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING! Imagine MJ's a free agent in 1990 and he bolts for the Lakers to team up with Magic and Worthy to win rings? Would Jordan be anywhere near the consensus GOAT? Hell f***ing no. What if Kobe had left the Lakers after 2007 only to team up with Tim Duncan and the Spurs to win rings? Could you imagine what people would be saying about Kobe? Nobody is saying Lebron is obligated to win rings with scrubs. He obviously wants to win and is making sacrifices to do so. But he's settling. That's where the criticism comes from. There's no authenticity. At least not for a guy that many believed had a legitimate chance to match or exceed MJ's legacy. But it's obvious he doesn't and never really cared about his legacy. He's not Michael. He's not Kobe. We thought he was, but he's not. He's not the cut-throat competitor that he liked us to believe that he was. He wants rings and will do whatever it takes to get them. And I can respect that in a sense. But "King" and "Chosen One" and "the Gift" and whatever dumbass name that he never really earned anyway, nobody wants to hear it anymore.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Jordan4life

[fathom]

I'll root for Scheyer, as he was significantly better in college than I ever thought he would be.