NBA Offseason Thread

[whitesoxfan101]

I find it AMAZING that LeBron managed to win 66 and 61 games the last two years in Cleveland even with "no help" as so many people like to put it. Well, if the LeBron nut lickers who say that are right, the Heat should have a win total in the low to mid 70's every year he's there, and they should win the NBA Championship every year. Good luck with that!

Edited July 9, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[fathom]

I disagree with a ton of stuff on here, but this has been my favorite thread in a long, long time.

 

of course you do. It's like participating in a thread about the hottest girl in the world, and you're married to Marissa Miller.

[T R U]

It was LeBron's idea to teabag Cleveland on national TV. LBJ better hire some protection for his games in Cleveland next year.

 

It wasnt.. the only thing LeBron did wrong was not notify the Cavs that he had decided to play elsewhere.. ESPN was responsible for that whole hour long episode, all LeBron did was ask for a press conference..

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'll root for Scheyer, as he was significantly better in college than I ever thought he would be.

 

Just heard the Heat are already talking to guys like Raja Bell and Kwame Brown. They get those two along with Miller and they've got their snipers and big that can rebound and defend (those are the only two things Kwame does well). See how simple this is? The rules change when you've got three players of this caliber on the same team.

[whitesoxfan101]

I believe the whole thing last night was actually Jim Gray's idea. I still say shame on LeBron and ESPN for doing it though. I also find it fitting that the show was aired live from the same city that Vince McMahon's giant mansion is in, because the NBA and wrestling have an awful lot in common.

[T R U]

And I can respect that in a sense. But "King" and "Chosen One" and "the Gift" and whatever dumbass name that he never really earned anyway, nobody wants to hear it anymore.

 

James didn't have control over the pieces that they brought in around him.. Sure, he has his input but im pretty sure he wanted Amare last season and the Cavs didn't want to give up Hickson so they went with Jamison.. They never gave him to second impact player he needed, and after 7 years he decided that he needed to move on to win a Championship.. Its all about winning for him, and when he does something about and goes somewhere that can make it happen hes bashed for it.. come on

 

I find it AMAZING that LeBron managed to win 66 and 61 games the last two years in Cleveland even with "no help" as so many people like to put it. Well, if the LeBron nut lickers who say that are right, the Heat should have a win total in the low to mid 70's every year he's there, and they should win the NBA Championship every year. Good luck with that!

 

Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure that Kobe has not come close to having as successful seasons as LeBron has had without Shaq and Gasol on his team.. I don't recall the just Kobe Lakers being anything special, at all..

[T R U]

because the NBA and wrestling have an awful lot in common.

 

Billion dollar companies with enormous fan bases across the world?

 

[whitesoxfan101]

of course you do. It's like participating in a thread about the hottest girl in the world, and you're married to Marissa Miller.

 

The Heat are going to be just like the San Francisco Giants were during the later Bonds years, except instead of Bonds being the one hated at an epic level, it'll be the entire team (led by LeBron of course). Outside of South Florida and a few scattered fans in other areas, absolutely everybody will hate this team. They've managed to make Kobe Bryant and the LA Lakers into knights in shining armor for crying out loud.

[whitesoxfan101]

Billion dollar companies with enormous fan bases across the world?

 

Haha. Actually to be fair, the NBA is worse than wrestling. At least wrestling doesn't pretend it's not fake and setup beforehand.

Edited July 9, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[IamtheHBOMB]

I believe the whole thing last night was actually Jim Gray's idea. I still say shame on LeBron and ESPN for doing it though. I also find it fitting that the show was aired live from the same city that Vince McMahon's giant mansion is in, because the NBA and wrestling have an awful lot in common.

 

No s***. It was like a badly written PPV segment in which LeBron turned heel. Except LBJ isn't going to get the "I love to hate this guy" heel heat. He is going to get the "I want this guy to f***ing die" variety of heel heat -- especially from Cavs fans.

[ZoomSlowik]

I find it AMAZING that LeBron managed to win 66 and 61 games the last two years in Cleveland even with "no help" as so many people like to put it. Well, if the LeBron nut lickers who say that are right, the Heat should have a win total in the low to mid 70's every year he's there, and they should win the NBA Championship every year. Good luck with that!

 

Once you get above 60, every game you try to add is a lot harder. There's pretty much no margin for error if you are trying to get 70. I'm personally not one of those people that thinks they're going to get 70 and cruise through the playoffs, they're probably going to rest guys a bit the last few weeks and I'm not putting them past the Magic and Lakers quite yet.

 

As for the Cavs' win totals, Lebron has an awful lot to do with that. I don't really care what the stats say, he adds like 30 wins to that team, maybe more. They have okay talent at best, but the one thing they did very well was surround him with shooters that don't need the ball and found a good gnat-like big man to harrass people in Varejao. If you have a superstar that is capable of making plays on every possession, that type of roster will work. The downside is that if Lebron has a bad game or two or you run into a good team where even if he goes for 40-8-8 you might lose (ie the Magic last year), guys like Williams, West and Jamison aren't going to be the guys that put them over the top.

 

I'll put it this way, how many games does a lineup of Williams/West//Jamison/Varejao/Ilgauskas and Hickson/Gibson/Moon off the bench win? I have a very hard time seeing it be over 35, or roughly on par with the Clippers. I'd probably take the under. You have 3, maybe 4 above average players on that roster and none of them are top-30 players (maybe even 50, I'm not going to figure that out though). That sounds like a fairly weak team to me.

 

 

[DrunkBomber]

Palehose, you're my boy, but you're a Heat fan. There's no way for you to be objective. This isn't Bulls fans picking on Lebron. This is EVERYBODY calling it what it is. You're bringing up Jordan and Magic and Kobe and any other superstar who won a title with great players as some defense for Lebron. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING! Imagine MJ's a free agent in 1990 and he bolts for the Lakers to team up with Magic and Worthy to win rings? Would Jordan be anywhere near the consensus GOAT? Hell f***ing no. What if Kobe had left the Lakers after 2007 only to team up with Tim Duncan and the Spurs to win rings? Could you imagine what people would be saying about Kobe? Nobody is saying Lebron is obligated to win rings with scrubs. He obviously wants to win and is making sacrifices to do so. But he's settling. That's where the criticism comes from. There's no authenticity. At least not for a guy that many believed had a legitimate chance to match or exceed MJ's legacy. But it's obvious he doesn't and never really cared about his legacy. He's not Michael. He's not Kobe. We thought he was, but he's not. He's not the cut-throat competitor that he liked us to believe that he was. He wants rings and will do whatever it takes to get them. And I can respect that in a sense. But "King" and "Chosen One" and "the Gift" and whatever dumbass name that he never really earned anyway, nobody wants to hear it anymore.

Well said. I think it sounds like Bulls fans are just bitter or might be trying to protect Jordans legacy but thats not the case at all. I think a lot of people are just really surprised he didnt make a run at greatness. This kid had high school games on ESPN, he called himself King James and his hometown team won the draft lottery to bring him in to save the franchise. It was unfolding like a scripted movie and people were just waiting anxiously for King James to take his thrown and make a run at the greatest of all time on top of becoming a god in his own backyard. Instead, he opted to go on national tv and kill his legacy to go and play 2nd fiddle to a star who has already been to the leagues highest plateau without him. I guess, to me at least, its jaw dropping to see a 25 year old star with the talent of James choose to go to a situation where the expectations are win multiple titles or you will be the laughing stock of the NBA, and btw, if you do win them you wont get the lions share of the credit anyway. As opposed to trying to do it on his own for the next few years and if he couldnt he could have made his super team at the twilight of his career, not in his prime. Winning in NY or Chicago would have meant so much more for his legacy and his brand. But if he stuck it out and won in Cleveland he becomes an all time great and a hero to that city forever. Instead, he has his hometown fans burning his jersey in the streets and he is hated by every fan base except Miami's.

[thxfrthmmrs]

The Pistons probably had four of the top-50 players in the league at the time, including a defensive player of the year caliber defender. It was definitely a differently constructed team, but they still clearly had elite-level talent.

 

I guess you have a point on the 2003 Spurs, I obviously didn't check basketball reference before making that comment and mistakenly assumed Manu was at his peak. That said, I'd still take Parker over any non-Lebron Cav.

 

2005 and 2007 Spurs you definitely can't argue that Duncan didn't have some pretty major help. You still have Parker, who is (maybe was?) an outstanding driving guard and Manu was one of the most talented guards in the league.

 

Look at Manu's stats again, over his career he's averaged 15-4-4 in only 28 MPG because the Spurs often rested him for the playoffs. He was DEFINITELY an impact player that could easily put up 20-5-5 in more minutes per game on a weaker team. If you look at his PER, he has been in the 22-24 range since 04/05, which is on the level of an elite player.

 

You are DRASTICALLY overrating this Cavs' team sans-Lebron.

 

First of all, he had Jamison for about half a year even when you factor in playoffs. There's still 6 1/2 seasons out of his career without Jamison. He has some good offensive skills, but is not a good defender.

 

Mo Williams is a decent player, but has disappeared in the playoffs and isn't going to create a lot of positive plays on his own. Varejao is a nice role player, but hardly "one of the best defensive big men in the league". He is a successful position defender but is not a game-changing shot-blocking type big man. Shaq is hardly "overpowering" any more, more like extremely slow. He can't even stay on the floor for more than about 25 MPG. And why do people keep saying "role players" like West, Moon and Hickson like that's a good thing? Those guys aren't even average NBA players and are highly replaceable.

 

There's a reason this team is going to struggle to win 30 games next year without Lebron, it's because they're not very good players. Williams and Jamison were relatively irrelevant players on mediocre/poor teams before coming to Cleveland and that's what they will be once again.

 

Defensive Player of the Year Watch

 

1. Dwight Howard, Magic: Barring injury, he may win this award for the next five years. He is that good.

 

2. Gerald Wallace, Bobcats: He is the heart and soul for the top defensive team in the league.

 

3. Anderson Varejao, Cavaliers: Some fans may say that Andy isn't even the best defender on his own team -- LeBron's chase-down blocks make all the highlights. I say to those fans, take the time and watch the effort he brings on every possession and tell me who means more to the Cavs defensively?

 

I am sorry, I have to fact check you again. You are totally wrong for not giving varejao his credit. He was in contend for the DPOY award since mid season and end up finishing second team all defense because of Dwight Howard, and he didn't receive enough playing time. It's totally not a stretch to call him one of the best defensive big men in the league. Like I said yesterday, everyone can look at stats and judge, but you actually have to watch the game to know about the game.

 

if you want to downgrade the the Cavs team, just take the fact that this team finished with the best record in the league the last two years, you can't do that unless the team is talented, and with Lebron in the mixed, this team definitely has the talented to be the best in the league and win it all, but his team didn't win anything nor sniff the NBA Finals in those years, and I believe that was the first time that happened in a long long long time.

 

Like many said before, Lebron is not a closer, that's why he needs Wade to take the last shot. He doesn't have the killer instinct of Kobe or Jordan, or even Arenas and Billups. He is not the guy to take the last shot when the game is on the lineup. He is not as great as people make him out to be when everything is on the line, and you can't blame guys like Mo and Jamison for that.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

I can't speak for other Bulls fans, but i'm not "protecting Jordan's legacy" at any time when I speak about NBA players and greatness. What he did here speaks for itself, and even if 10 players better than Jordan come along in our lifetimes, it doesn't change what he did.

Edited July 9, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[zenryan]

It wasnt.. the only thing LeBron did wrong was not notify the Cavs that he had decided to play elsewhere.. ESPN was responsible for that whole hour long episode, all LeBron did was ask for a press conference..

 

 

 

No, it was actually Jim Gray's, James and his advisors idea for the show. Actually more of LBJ's people then Gray's for a tv show.

 

 

From Jim Gray--

 

"I saw Maverick Carter and LeBron James at Game 2 of the NBA Finals and asked them if I could do the interview and it's taken its own course since then. Maverick liked the idea and thought it would be a good idea to make their announcement, to have it as a television show. And he took the ball and ran with it."

 

link

 

[DrunkBomber]

I can't speak for other Bulls fans, but i'm not "protecting Jordan's legacy" at any time when I speak about NBA players and greatness. What he did here speaks for itself, and even if 10 players better than Jordan come along in our lifetimes, it doesn't change what he did.

I was more pointing out that it appears we are bitter Bulls fans and are throwing MJ in their face to make us feel better when in actuality the whole country is doing that. If anything the Bulls fans will be cheering for Jordans legacy to take a hit this year and have Kobe beat the three headed monster. If he can do that he is bringing himself to a whole new level.

[greg775]

The TV show was a horrible idea. Part of his legacy now is screwing Cleveland on national TV and using children as props.

Bad bad bad, how many times can I write bad, idea.

 

LeBron is one rich motherf***er and doesn't care, but this is a major part of who he is, his legacy, now.

 

And the Cleveland owner is another rich prick moron. He needs to shut the f*** up as well.

Losers? The Cleveland fans who didn't ask for any of this. But LeBron and the owner are BIG LOSERS in this. Not that they care. They got money to burn all night.

[thxfrthmmrs]

James didn't have control over the pieces that they brought in around him.. Sure, he has his input but im pretty sure he wanted Amare last season and the Cavs didn't want to give up Hickson so they went with Jamison.. They never gave him to second impact player he needed, and after 7 years he decided that he needed to move on to win a Championship.. Its all about winning for him, and when he does something about and goes somewhere that can make it happen hes bashed for it.. come on

 

 

 

Correct me if im wrong, but im pretty sure that Kobe has not come close to having as successful seasons as LeBron has had without Shaq and Gasol on his team.. I don't recall the just Kobe Lakers being anything special, at all..

 

correct me if I am wrong. Every team is built differently, it doesn't take two superstars to win the championship. Take the 03 spurs, 04 pistons, and the 05 spurs for example. from 03 to 05, if you take a survey around the league, Parker and Ginobili are not regarded as superstars nor even top 20 players in the league. There definitely no superstar on the 05 pistons.

 

It takes defense and chemistry to win a championship, and I believe that Cavs is built on that same model under Mike Brown. He quitted because he knows he can't win if he was the main guy on the team, if he knew he could win, then why did he leave?

 

People need to stop giving him too much credit, he had a team that had the best record for 2 consecutive years, a team that was favorited to win the East if not the nba title after the acquisition of Jamison, yet he came away empty handed both time.

Edited July 9, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[thxfrthmmrs]

people need to realize that the 08-09 Cavs won over 60 games and reached the conference finals. This team is already talented.

 

the additional of Shaq and Jamison only made them better. So he had a better team, a very very good team in 09-10, yet failed to get back to the Conference finals. so stop giving crap about him not having a good team to win anything.

[Palehosefan]

Palehose, you're my boy, but you're a Heat fan. There's no way for you to be objective. This isn't Bulls fans picking on Lebron. This is EVERYBODY calling it what it is. You're bringing up Jordan and Magic and Kobe and any other superstar who won a title with great players as some defense for Lebron. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING! Imagine MJ's a free agent in 1990 and he bolts for the Lakers to team up with Magic and Worthy to win rings? Would Jordan be anywhere near the consensus GOAT? Hell f***ing no. What if Kobe had left the Lakers after 2007 only to team up with Tim Duncan and the Spurs to win rings? Could you imagine what people would be saying about Kobe? Nobody is saying Lebron is obligated to win rings with scrubs. He obviously wants to win and is making sacrifices to do so. But he's settling. That's where the criticism comes from. There's no authenticity. At least not for a guy that many believed had a legitimate chance to match or exceed MJ's legacy. But it's obvious he doesn't and never really cared about his legacy. He's not Michael. He's not Kobe. We thought he was, but he's not. He's not the cut-throat competitor that he liked us to believe that he was. He wants rings and will do whatever it takes to get them. And I can respect that in a sense. But "King" and "Chosen One" and "the Gift" and whatever dumbass name that he never really earned anyway, nobody wants to hear it anymore.

 

Nice post. I just have never heard LeBron say that he wants to be the greatest ever, but then again I haven't paid attention to every interview. The only things I have ever heard from him are that he wants to be the next billion dollar athlete and businessman like Magic and that he wants to win championships. He listed the Lakers, Celtics, Bulls, Spurs etc and their multiple titles as what's driving him.

 

MJ had a 24 year old Scottie Pippen coming off of a 16.5 pg, 6.7 rpg, 5.4 apg, 2.6 spg, All-Star season season in 1990 when he re-signed to stay in Chicago. LeBron extended his contract with Cleveland after 05-06 to give Cleveland a chance for 4 more years. He gave Cleveland 7 years to find himself some help, and the best they came up with was geritol Shaq and over the hill Antawn who has always been a garbage team producer.

 

I don't disagree with the way the decision was handled was absurd, but I think that's more of a case of LeBron trusting his childhood friends way more than he should have.

[Palehosefan]

I was more pointing out that it appears we are bitter Bulls fans and are throwing MJ in their face to make us feel better when in actuality the whole country is doing that. If anything the Bulls fans will be cheering for Jordans legacy to take a hit this year and have Kobe beat the three headed monster. If he can do that he is bringing himself to a whole new level.

 

That kind of comment just makes no sense to me. Kobe is the one douche always trying to one-up MJ. He was crying after winning 3 titles already and demanding a trade from LA to a better situation. He only stayed in LA because he got a top 15 player given to him in Pau Gasol. This would have been no different if Bosh actually wanted to play in Cleveland.

[HuskyCaucasian]

The Score has a sports marketing/image guy on right now

Edited July 9, 2010 by Athomeboy_2000

[whitesoxfan101]

Nice post. I just have never heard LeBron say that he wants to be the greatest ever, but then again I haven't paid attention to every interview. The only things I have ever heard from him are that he wants to be the next billion dollar athlete and businessman like Magic and that he wants to win championships.

 

Well, it's good if he doesn't want to be the greatest ever, because that concept died last night. He can certainly reach his goal of multiple championships now that he has Wade to take the last shots, and Bosh and Wade to help him in general. But the dream of being a billion dollar athlete also died last night, because LeBron James the player isn't dead, but LeBron James the brand is.

[Palehosefan]

Well, it's good if he doesn't want to be the greatest ever, because that concept died last night. He can certainly reach his goal of multiple championships now that he has Wade to take the last shots, and Bosh and Wade to help him in general. But the dream of being a billion dollar athlete also died last night, because LeBron James the player isn't dead, but LeBron James the brand is.

 

Miami is going to be on national TV for just about every single game. Miami will be in the playoffs every single year, and LeBron will be the best player on the floor for likely at least 1 or 2 championship teams. LeBron's marketing hit here might take a dive, but worldwide places like China will immediately take him to the top as they have done with Kobe after his titles. LeBron can make a killing off of foreign marketing, and that's assuming the bandwagon fans in America turn their noses up at LeBron for joining Dwyane Wade, which is a big assumption when the dust settles.

Edited July 9, 2010 by Palehosefan

[ZoomSlowik]

I am sorry, I have to fact check you again. You are totally wrong for not giving varejao his credit. He was in contend for the DPOY award since mid season and end up finishing second team all defense because of Dwight Howard, and he didn't receive enough playing time. It's totally not a stretch to call him one of the best defensive big men in the league. Like I said yesterday, everyone can look at stats and judge, but you actually have to watch the game to know about the game.

 

if you want to downgrade the the Cavs team, just take the fact that this team finished with the best record in the league the last two years, you can't do that unless the team is talented, and with Lebron in the mixed, this team definitely has the talented to be the best in the league and win it all, but his team didn't win anything nor sniff the NBA Finals in those years, and I believe that was the first time that happened in a long long long time.

 

Like many said before, Lebron is not a closer, that's why he needs Wade to take the last shot. He doesn't have the killer instinct of Kobe or Jordan, or even Arenas and Billups. He is not the guy to take the last shot when the game is on the lineup. He is not as great as people make him out to be when everything is on the line, and you can't blame guys like Mo and Jamison for that.

 

I never said he was a bad defensive player, just not a really great one. He is nowhere close to Dwight, a true game-changing big man that makes his entire team better. Four other guys on the Cavs put up the same defensive rating he did, and they finished 7th as a team. No one would even know who he is if he didn't play for the Cavs.

 

The Cavs won 60 games because of Lebron. He did basically everything for them on offense and was a huge part of their defense as well. That roster works entirely because of Lebron, without him they're not a very good team.

 

Now you're just making s*** up on the "not being a closer part". Did he not single-handedly beat the Pistons by scoring like 20 of their last 24 points in the conference finals? Did he not hit a ridiculous buzzer beater against Orlando to win game 2 last year? He's just fine as a closer, maybe if his team was good enough to keep them in the game when he's averaging 38-8-8 like he did in the Magic series last year he wouldn't have left. No one can do it by themselves.

 

A lot of it is Mo and Jamison's fault, they were ghosts in the playoffs. Jamison only averaged 12-7 against Boston and shot 3-16 from the arc while getting destroyed by an aging Kevin Garnett (almost 19 PPG at a 52% clip). Mo was 4-19 from the arc in the Boston series and only averaged 13 points on 41% shooting while Rondo was putting up 21-12 against him. That was after Mo shot 39.6% against Atlanta and Orlando the previous year.

 

Lebron didn't have a good series against Boston either by his standards, but it's hard to win by yourself. That's the difference between Lebron and Kobe right now: when Kobe shoots 6-24 in game 7 of the finals, his team finds a way to bail him out.