NBA Offseason Thread

[nitetrain8601]

By the way...I'd like to add here...I haven't seen the explicit reports that "Noah turned down a $12 million a year contract" and if you have a link saying that I'd like to see it.

 

Most of what I've read has been along these lines...they've been talking for a while, there seems to be agreement that something will get done, but it hasn't gotten 100% serious yet.

 

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bu...60-million.html

 

Alex Kennedy originally reported it on his twitter.

[thxfrthmmrs]

That is simply ridiculous because if you get the ball to Noah uncovered he will score or at least take the jumper if he pops rather than goes to the basket. Rose was not great at running the pick and roll last year, I do agree Noah isn't the ideal big man to run it with but Rose also was not adept (and this was probably Noah's fault as well) at reading the defense and angles and creating easy opportunities for Noah the way premier PGs do when running the pick and roll.

 

 

agreed, even though rose did have a below average offensive group around him, and he did show flashes of his court vision, he hasn't shown that he is capable of orchestrating an offense, reading defense and creating easy opportunities for his teammate, which is what a great playmaker is all about.

[Balta1701]

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/chicago-bu...60-million.html

 

Alex Kennedy originally reported it on his twitter.

Nothing there says that he turned it down. In fact, Kennedy speculated that it's a sign the Bulls are really serious about keeping him. I'd guess that the deeper meaning is "The Bulls and Noah's camp have been talking for a while and that's somewhere in the neighborhood of the number they're talking about".

[RockRaines]

I really dont care what a player's assist numbers are when he has to completely carry a team offensively like DROSE has had to. Put some players that actually give him some help, and he will probably become an avg passer, and still an elite player.

[nitetrain8601]

How does this make any sense at all when LeBron has been a much better scorer than Melo not to mention being the much better passer, ball handler, rebounder, and defender.

 

Makes perfect sense. Melo is the better pure scorer. And I said he's a better fit because of that. He's better at outside shooting, he has an excellent post up game, and he can pretty much hit it from anywhere with consistency. LeBron had all the freedom in Cleveland's offense because they never surrounded him with any sort of scoring talent outside of Mo Williams who is not really a scoring talent. 'Bron made a great living off of fast break points, alley oops and the FT line(as well as crab dribbles). Now in terms of the other thing, I really won't dispute because I can't.

 

One other thing worth noting...Thibodeau supposedly clinched the job with his discussion of how he would employ a Drive and Kick style of offense with the DR1 field and Brush Mower.

VDN, on the other hand, as we all know, employed an offense heavily reliant on the pick and roll. In particular, it used the high pick and roll, with Noah usually heading out front to set a screen for Rose. Rose was fast enough that from the outside if you gave him separation he could still break down into the lane, but the fact that you're starting high and taking Noah out away from the basket meant that the only guy left down low who could be an option to dish the ball was Taj Gibson/Brad Miller/whoever else was in the game. ON top of that, the guys that were outside of the lane (Deng, etc.) weren't either outside shooters nor were they in position to take advantage of Rose's penetration with an open shot if he did break down the defense (This is why Deng's hanging out by the 3 point line without moving was so frustrating).

 

Without an outside threat, the high pick and roll basically gave Rose 1 option; drive and try to score. He needed to be better about drawing contact, everyone ought to be able to agree on that, but it's worth stressing that ball movement wasn't going to be a practical result of VDN's offense. The Drive and Kick style combined with some level of (less formulaic) pick and roll, along with a better set of outside threats and a legitimate inside scoring threat ought to improve those assist options substantially.

 

Sounds like the Dribble Drive Motion offense which is the same thing Boston was running(hybrid version) and what Derrick ran at Memphis. Doesn't lead to many assist opportunities unless you have great shooters like a Ray Allen. I'm guessing Korver will play that role. I've explained before how the offense works in full detail, but it shortest words, it's not all that complex either. It's more or less freestyle type of play which promotes athleticism(which we have for the most part).

 

 

[nitetrain8601]

Nothing there says that he turned it down. In fact, Kennedy speculated that it's a sign the Bulls are really serious about keeping him. I'd guess that the deeper meaning is "The Bulls and Noah's camp have been talking for a while and that's somewhere in the neighborhood of the number they're talking about".

 

It was reported elsewhere, he was looking for 70-75 million dollars. I'll try to find it. Bulls are serious about keeping him else they wouldn't have started talking to him first. Noah really wants to stay in Chicago. They both love each other. It's a matter of how much. I see a deal getting done and the Bulls overpaying. It's just a matter of is it going to be Tyson Chandler/Luol Deng type of overpay.

 

Honestly, I would not give him more than the 12 million per year. Heck, I'm not sure I would've offered that.

[whitesoxfan99]

Makes perfect sense. Melo is the better pure scorer. And I said he's a better fit because of that. He's better at outside shooting, he has an excellent post up game, and he can pretty much hit it from anywhere with consistency. LeBron had all the freedom in Cleveland's offense because they never surrounded him with any sort of scoring talent outside of Mo Williams who is not really a scoring talent. 'Bron made a great living off of fast break points, alley oops and the FT line(as well as crab dribbles). Now in terms of the other thing, I really won't dispute because I can't.

 

I'm not sure there is a single in this post that is true. Carmelo is a far more inefficient scorer than LeBron and shoots a lower percentage from 3. The fact that his TS% is so much lower and his 3 pt percentage is lower indicates in fact that LeBron is the far better scorer and that he can't hit from anywhere with consistency. LeBron made a living off of alley oops? Get the f*** out. He might get one a game at most. Also, Melo got to the line 9 times a game LeBron 10 last year. Guess what, great players get to the FT line. LeBron>>>Melo at everything on the basketball court.

[Balta1701]

Honestly, I would not give him more than the 12 million per year. Heck, I'm not sure I would've offered that.

Here's the way to look at it...he's not worth $12 million per year under the current cap...but he's at that level where a lot of teams would jump at paying him $12 million per year if he hit the open market (see; this year's FA period). Therefore, your choices are to pay him that much, trade him, or let him walk for nothing.

 

I've cared about the Bulls keeping salary under control for too long to really care any more about whether or not JR winds up paying the luxury tax. If he doesn't think that this team right now is championship-caliber and at the level that he'd go into the tax for...then he's not going to ever go into tax territory for a team until the Heat are dismantled.

 

He'd probably have gotten close to $75 million or so had he hit the FA market this season, because that's just the way things have been going. A new CBA will change those things. If the Bulls are willing to go to 5/$60, they'll get it done, because between injuries and the new CBA that's an enormous amount of security they'd be offering to Noah.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Makes perfect sense. Melo is the better pure scorer. And I said he's a better fit because of that. He's better at outside shooting, he has an excellent post up game, and he can pretty much hit it from anywhere with consistency. LeBron had all the freedom in Cleveland's offense because they never surrounded him with any sort of scoring talent outside of Mo Williams who is not really a scoring talent. 'Bron made a great living off of fast break points, alley oops and the FT line(as well as crab dribbles). Now in terms of the other thing, I really won't dispute because I can't.

 

if you look at their shot chart from 82games.com and nba.com/hotspots, nothing suggest Carmelo is a superior outside shooter than lebron, in fact lebron has hit twice as many 3s in his career than Carmelo with a higher %, and last season, lebron hit 43.6% on his jump shots, compared to 41% for Carmelo, if you think lebron makes a living off fast break, and alleys, he actually attempts 64% jump shots, and 63% for Melo.

 

Stats aside, lebron can always score more if he is not a pass first player, Carmelo plays in a high octane offense in Denver, and Lebron plays under Mike Brown's defensive oriented system. Keep in mind, Lebron commands double team more often than Carmelo, so he scores in more difficult situation. So i don't know how exactly is Carmelo a better offensive player.

Edited September 22, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[nitetrain8601]

I'm not sure there is a single in this post that is true. Carmelo is a far more inefficient scorer than LeBron and shoots a lower percentage from 3. The fact that his TS% is so much lower and his 3 pt percentage is lower indicates in fact that LeBron is the far better scorer and that he can't hit from anywhere with consistency. LeBron made a living off of alley oops? Get the f*** out. He might get one a game at most. Also, Melo got to the line 9 times a game LeBron 10 last year. Guess what, great players get to the FT line. LeBron>>>Melo at everything on the basketball court.

 

I didn't take into account Mike Brown's offense, so my bad. LeBron did play in a horrific offense that was simple. So while he got to take whatever shot he wanted, he also had every defense gearing against him. You win. Melo is still a great player, and Lebron didn't want to come here. Also, Melo is less of a dbag than LeBron.

[Balta1701]

Also, Melo is less of a dbag than LeBron.

I'm not sure that I believe this 100% yet. Melo didn't screw over a city...but he hasn't had the chance.

[nitetrain8601]

Here's the way to look at it...he's not worth $12 million per year under the current cap...but he's at that level where a lot of teams would jump at paying him $12 million per year if he hit the open market (see; this year's FA period). Therefore, your choices are to pay him that much, trade him, or let him walk for nothing.

 

I've cared about the Bulls keeping salary under control for too long to really care any more about whether or not JR winds up paying the luxury tax. If he doesn't think that this team right now is championship-caliber and at the level that he'd go into the tax for...then he's not going to ever go into tax territory for a team until the Heat are dismantled.

 

He'd probably have gotten close to $75 million or so had he hit the FA market this season, because that's just the way things have been going. A new CBA will change those things. If the Bulls are willing to go to 5/$60, they'll get it done, because between injuries and the new CBA that's an enormous amount of security they'd be offering to Noah.

 

And that is all true. He's going to get paid by someone, a crazy amount of money. So is he worth it? Is there going to be someone who can somewhat fill his shoes for cheaper? At what point do the Bulls walk away from the table? I think if you end up with the same team, it makes sense to keep him at the 75 mil mark. But if you plan on trading Deng for Melo, you might want to look at moving Joakim somewhere at some point in time(if not for Melo) because you're going to have a lot of money on the books for a long time.

 

Keeping Deng and Boozer will allow for flexibility within 3-5 years as Boozer will retire or command a lot less dough, and Deng will just command less dough or leave.

[whitesoxfan99]

I'm not sure that I believe this 100% yet. Melo didn't screw over a city...but he hasn't had the chance.

 

And even if it is true how does that factor into winning basketball games? Michael Jordan was about as much of a dbag as a person can be and he is still my favorite athlete of all time and he won six championships.

[nitetrain8601]

I'm not sure that I believe this 100% yet. Melo didn't screw over a city...but he hasn't had the chance.

True, but unless he goes on ESPN with Bob Costas, LeBron wins be default. Also, he's made it known to the Nuggets that he doesn't plan on being there. LeBron on the other hand kept implying he would stay after just going on a FA tour to feel some outside love. In reality, he planned on leaving for about 3 years.

[Felix]

Media Day for the Timberwolves is on Friday, with Training Camp starting the next day. I'm really looking forward to this season, for some reason.

[nitetrain8601]

Media Day for the Timberwolves is on Friday, with Training Camp starting the next day. I'm really looking forward to this season, for some reason.

 

You're a T-Wolves fan? The bright side is, their uni's are less horrific. And they got a decent player in the draft. I still see them in the lottery. And that's honestly what they need. They need to load up on young good talent so they don't get stuck in mediocrity again.

[nitetrain8601]

From Wojo:

 

Thibodeau has been assertive with Chicago Bulls management on his coaching staff and roster, and he pushed hard to get veteran assistant and management favorite Pete Myers off his bench and back into the front office. Thibodeau has created clear boundaries between the front office and coaching staff – something former Bulls head coach Vinny Del Negro probably wished he would’ve been allowed to do.

 

Thibodeau has promised a grueling training camp, and he’ll undoubtedly be an emotional, demanding coach. It’s no surprise he’s pushed for as many of his guys to fill out the roster, including Brian Scalabrine(notes) and John Lucas(notes) III. Thibodeau has had significant say in every Bulls personnel move, and the pressure will be on him to deliver this season. The Bulls have given him wide latitude to operate within the organization.

 

Thibodeau’s ability to cultivate relationships with his star players, especially his young cornerstones – Derrick Rose(notes) and Joakim Noah(notes) – will be paramount for his success. One thing to watch: Noah and the Bulls are still far apart on a contract extension, sources said, and there are no assurances they’ll have a resolution before the start of the season.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvxF...questions092210

[SleepyWhiteSox]

Make the trade.

 

Also, Rose > Westbrook, and I like westbrook.

[Quin]

Joakim Noah's been my favorite player since we drafted him...but if he won't sign an extension and he's the deal breaker, you trade him.

 

However, I keep upping the deal with picks before I think of trading Noah.

 

The way Noah and Boozer complement each other perfectly and how as a duo they could neutralize Bosh, I want to keep that. And a group of Rose-Anthony-Boozer-Noah could give the Heat a run for their money.

[Balta1701]

From Wojo:

 

 

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvxF...questions092210

I wonder if this means that the 5/$60 numbers are being leaked by Noah's side and not the Bulls' side.

 

Even if they're far apart...I'll bet you that something gets done before the season. It just makes zero sense for Noah's side to do anything other than cave if it locks in a long-term deal with a raise for this season...prior to the looming lockout.

[RockRaines]

I've turned around and began to really like Noah the last 2 seasons, especially with his development as a player and the energy he brings. However, I dont buy that the guy is worth that much money, I'd rather get a Melo for him while we can instead of signing him and turning him into a contract albatross and eventually an expiring contract that we cannot wait to get rid of.

[Steve9347]

I've turned around and began to really like Noah the last 2 seasons, especially with his development as a player and the energy he brings. However, I dont buy that the guy is worth that much money, I'd rather get a Melo for him while we can instead of signing him and turning him into a contract albatross and eventually an expiring contract that we cannot wait to get rid of.

Signing a guy like Noah to that kind of cash would be identical to our signing Tyson Chandler for too much and then giving him away because he wasn't worth it.

[Jenksismyhero]

I've turned around and began to really like Noah the last 2 seasons, especially with his development as a player and the energy he brings. However, I dont buy that the guy is worth that much money, I'd rather get a Melo for him while we can instead of signing him and turning him into a contract albatross and eventually an expiring contract that we cannot wait to get rid of.

 

This is the Bulls. They have the money to spend, so spend it. Noah is one of the top 5 centers in the league and he's entering his what, 4th year? Young, skilled, energetic and all about the team. I dunno if there's any player in the league like him, let alone a center. Plus, he's becoming a fan favorite.

 

I say sign him for what he wants and make him happy.

[JorgeFabregas]

The reluctance towards a hypothetical Carmelo trade is reminiscent of the hand-wringing over sending Gordon/Deng for Kobe. It's quite silly. Keep in mind that Carmelo is less than a year older than Noah. I think that Noah has just about maxed out his potential.

 

Edit: Not that the Kobe trade was going to happen. I don't know if this one is any more likely.

Edited September 23, 2010 by JorgeFabregas

[RockRaines]

This is the Bulls. They have the money to spend, so spend it. Noah is one of the top 5 centers in the league and he's entering his what, 4th year? Young, skilled, energetic and all about the team. I dunno if there's any player in the league like him, let alone a center. Plus, he's becoming a fan favorite.

 

I say sign him for what he wants and make him happy.

Melo is one of the top 5 PLAYERS in the league however, and is young, skilled and downright dominant.