NBA Offseason Thread

[chw42]

On the plus side, Chris Paul supposedly said that he and Carmelo are planning on coming to the Knicks to form their own Big Three there...that's a team that would be able to compete with the Heat...but we have to wait 2 years for that and I have trouble of thinking of a team I dislike more than NY and Miami....

 

I don't want to root for the freaking Knicks...

[Balta1701]

Juwan Howard?? I thought he was already retired, does he even have anything left?

He averaged 22 minutes a game over 73 games for the Trailblazers last season and put up a PER of 10.0, which isn't half bad for a backup.

[Balta1701]

On the plus side, Chris Paul supposedly said that he and Carmelo are planning on coming to the Knicks to form their own Big Three there...that's a team that would be able to compete with the Heat...but we have to wait 2 years for that and I have trouble of thinking of a team I dislike more than NY and Miami....

Well, if it makes you feel better, you won't have basketbawful in 2011-2012 to endure en route to that superteam. Although, it's entirely plausible that a superteam through FA might be impossible once the union breaks again.

[bmags]

why is it his fault? he made the system more difficult for these types of things to happen.

 

how do you figure?

[Jenksismyhero]

how do you figure?

 

the financial incentive of the 6 year max deal with the home team.

[LittleHurt05]

He averaged 22 minutes a game over 73 games for the Trailblazers last season and put up a PER of 10.0, which isn't half bad for a backup.

 

Wow, impressive, I thought he would be out of the league like C-Webb. All he has to do for Miami is take up space in the lane on defense and grab an occasional rebound, which it sounds like he should be able to. Ugh, I keep hating the Heat more and more.

[Balta1701]

Wow, impressive, I thought he would be out of the league like C-Webb. All he has to do for Miami is take up space in the lane on defense and grab an occasional rebound, which it sounds like he should be able to. Ugh, I keep hating the Heat more and more.

With that front 5, he'll be an adequate backup if he stays healthy, and they're going to wind up having so many 30+ point blowouts that the 2nd rounders they just drafted and any Dleague guys they sign will get a good chunk of the playing time anyway.

[bmags]

the financial incentive of the 6 year max deal with the home team.

 

and if there was no max deal?

[Jenksismyhero]

and if there was no max deal?

 

The Cavs offered him a max deal, he chose not to take it. I dunno what more Stern can do.

[Balta1701]

The Cavs offered him a max deal, he chose not to take it. I dunno what more Stern can do.

I think he's saying that if the owners hadn't imposed the Max deal, guys like LBJ would likely earn even higher salaries and as such a team like Miami couldn't afford to bring in 3 FA's on huge deals all at once.

 

That is one plausible effect of creating a max deal at that level...it brings some of the 2nd tier guys up to "max" level (see: Rudy Gay) but forces the top of the top of the top (i.e. James) down in salary.

[bmags]

if there is a sport that should not impose a max deal in addition to a salary cap, it's basketball.

[Jenksismyhero]

I think he's saying that if the owners hadn't imposed the Max deal, guys like LBJ would likely earn even higher salaries and as such a team like Miami couldn't afford to bring in 3 FA's on huge deals all at once.

 

That is one plausible effect of creating a max deal at that level...it brings some of the 2nd tier guys up to "max" level (see: Rudy Gay) but forces the top of the top of the top (i.e. James) down in salary.

 

But if you don't impose the max deal there's no way Cleveland ever gets a guy like Lebron.

[bmags]

But if you don't impose the max deal there's no way Cleveland ever gets a guy like Lebron.

 

how do you figure?

[Balta1701]

But if you don't impose the max deal there's no way Cleveland ever gets a guy like Lebron.

The Draft?

 

I'd respond to that with 2 points. First...if you keep the Bird rights, then Cleveland could have kept upping the ante until no other teams left. Miami could offer him up to the salary cap but no more, then Cleveland could counter with a $30 million a year offer, and frankly, for Cleveland, he'd have been worth it.

 

Second...if you keep the cap in place, I think it makes it more likely that a smaller market can afford a guy like that, because even a team like the Grizz, if they could clear $25-30 mil in cap space, would suddenly have the opportunity to dump it all on one superstar and win the race for him.

 

The problem of course would wind up being that 5 teams would clear max space and somehow the Bulls would wind up paying Carlos Boozer $28 million/year.

[bmags]

The Draft?

 

I'd respond to that with 2 points. First...if you keep the Bird rights, then Cleveland could have kept upping the ante until no other teams left. Miami could offer him up to the salary cap but no more, then Cleveland could counter with a $30 million a year offer, and frankly, for Cleveland, he'd have been worth it.

 

Second...if you keep the cap in place, I think it makes it more likely that a smaller market can afford a guy like that, because even a team like the Grizz, if they could clear $25-30 mil in cap space, would suddenly have the opportunity to dump it all on one superstar and win the race for him.

 

The problem of course would wind up being that 5 teams would clear max space and somehow the Bulls would wind up paying Carlos Boozer $28 million/year.

 

but quite frankly, considering the amount of players on a basketball team, and the amount of revenue teams make...i just don't see how that isn't a reasonable contract. There is already a cap. That should dictate. This is a stupid system.

[Balta1701]

but quite frankly, considering the amount of players on a basketball team, and the amount of revenue teams make...i just don't see how that isn't a reasonable contract. There is already a cap. That should dictate. This is a stupid system.

Which contract? James for $30 million or Boozer for $28 million?

 

I think reality as I see it is that James for $30 million is actually just about a fair deal, given that he's worth something like $200 million in additional franchise value and revenue to a team. The top guy in the league is probably worth that much. Kobe's probably been worth $30 million a year to the Lakers over the last decade.

 

But beyond those 2 guys...there's maybe 1 more guy in the league who's a $25 million a year level player, and that's Wade. The rest of the players, except MAYBE Howard, belong at or below the current max salary level.

 

But what would wind up happening without a max salary is that guys like Lebron and Wade would get deals that are fair for them unless they decided on this Miami party BS, but just as teams now are dumping crazy money on Tyrus Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Rudy Gay, etc., teams would wind up bidding up Carlos Boozer and Luol Deng up to $20 million in order to make sure no one steals them, and those salaries are already killers even at lower levels (look how badly having Deng and Hinrich to pay has hurt the Bulls even though they've been somewhat productive).

 

It's not guys like Lebron and Kobe getting Max deals that has put the NBA in such financial trouble. It's guys like Thomas getting $10 million a year. It's guys like Deng getting $11 million. It's Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer getting max or near-max deals. It's Gilbert Arenas getting a max deal, it's Zach Randolph making near max money.

 

It's paying lower tier guys big money so as to tread water that is killing these teams. You land a James, your revenues go through the roof. You land a Boozer for the same money as James, and suddenly your cap is a mess and you're forced to pay the luxury tax to hang onto your backup SG, you finish 4th in the league every year, and you have no idea how you got into such a mess.

[Jenksismyhero]

The Draft?

 

I'd respond to that with 2 points. First...if you keep the Bird rights, then Cleveland could have kept upping the ante until no other teams left. Miami could offer him up to the salary cap but no more, then Cleveland could counter with a $30 million a year offer, and frankly, for Cleveland, he'd have been worth it.

 

Second...if you keep the cap in place, I think it makes it more likely that a smaller market can afford a guy like that, because even a team like the Grizz, if they could clear $25-30 mil in cap space, would suddenly have the opportunity to dump it all on one superstar and win the race for him.

 

The problem of course would wind up being that 5 teams would clear max space and somehow the Bulls would wind up paying Carlos Boozer $28 million/year.

 

I'm confused. Are you arguing that the Bird rights are good or bad?

 

To me, that's the only way teams like the Cavs can keep their drafted superstars after their rookie year ends.

 

I just don't like the idea of a free for all in a sport where only 5 guys play. You'd be creating the Yankees but on an even worse scale. I think this year is an aberration because you talked 2 superstars and one all star into taking ~15 million less just to play together. That's a pretty unique situation.

[Balta1701]

I'm confused. Are you arguing that the Bird rights are good or bad?

 

To me, that's the only way teams like the Cavs can keep their drafted superstars after their rookie year ends.

 

I just don't like the idea of a free for all in a sport where only 5 guys play. You'd be creating the Yankees but on an even worse scale. I think this year is an aberration because you talked 2 superstars and one all star into taking ~15 million less just to play together. That's a pretty unique situation.

Did they take $15 million less? I got the impression it was about $5 million less.

 

Anyway, I'm not arguing against the Bird rights per se, but the whole NBA system is a mess. You can't be competitive without spending a ton, but if you try to be competitive by spending a ton you're likely to get screwed anyway.

 

I'm coming to the realization that the owners are probably right, and the thing the NBA is going to need is to move to a partially-guaranteed contract situation to give the owners a way to compete on the FA market but to do so without killing their team if they miss.

[Jenksismyhero]

Did they take $15 million less? I got the impression it was about $5 million less.

 

Anyway, I'm not arguing against the Bird rights per se, but the whole NBA system is a mess. You can't be competitive without spending a ton, but if you try to be competitive by spending a ton you're likely to get screwed anyway.

 

I'm coming to the realization that the owners are probably right, and the thing the NBA is going to need is to move to a partially-guaranteed contract situation to give the owners a way to compete on the FA market but to do so without killing their team if they miss.

 

I think their max deals would have been 6 years, 125 million, but they got 6 years, 110 (107 for wade).

 

 

[bmags]

i'm pretty sure if it was a free for all with a salary cap, you would've seen the money be very high, and each team could've afforded only one and this circus would've never happened.

[zenryan]

That Heat roster is looking pretty good.

PG Chalmers

SG Wade

SF James

PF Bosh

C Haslem

 

SF Miller

PF Howard

PG Dooling (probably re-signing)

 

They're only a couple of guys away...

 

 

That's a lineup that will win a lot of regular season games but their front court will get eaten alive.

 

[chw42]

Haslem's not a terrible defensive player. They will have trouble in the playoffs due to lack of good depth, but the fact that people were questioning if they can win 50 games should be put to rest by now.

[Chi Town Sox]

That's a lineup that will win a lot of regular season games but their front court will get eaten alive.

 

I don't know if anything has changed, I thought I originally read that Riley wanted LBJ to be the point guard

 

[Quin]

OTOH, both playing time and a ring come in Miami.

 

Brad doesn't want to play nearly the minutes he played last year in Chicago, so that actually helps the Bulls case.

 

[bmags]

Which contract? James for $30 million or Boozer for $28 million?

 

I think reality as I see it is that James for $30 million is actually just about a fair deal, given that he's worth something like $200 million in additional franchise value and revenue to a team. The top guy in the league is probably worth that much. Kobe's probably been worth $30 million a year to the Lakers over the last decade.

 

But beyond those 2 guys...there's maybe 1 more guy in the league who's a $25 million a year level player, and that's Wade. The rest of the players, except MAYBE Howard, belong at or below the current max salary level.

 

But what would wind up happening without a max salary is that guys like Lebron and Wade would get deals that are fair for them unless they decided on this Miami party BS, but just as teams now are dumping crazy money on Tyrus Thomas, Hakim Warrick, Rudy Gay, etc., teams would wind up bidding up Carlos Boozer and Luol Deng up to $20 million in order to make sure no one steals them, and those salaries are already killers even at lower levels (look how badly having Deng and Hinrich to pay has hurt the Bulls even though they've been somewhat productive).

 

It's not guys like Lebron and Kobe getting Max deals that has put the NBA in such financial trouble. It's guys like Thomas getting $10 million a year. It's guys like Deng getting $11 million. It's Joe Johnson and Carlos Boozer getting max or near-max deals. It's Gilbert Arenas getting a max deal, it's Zach Randolph making near max money.

 

It's paying lower tier guys big money so as to tread water that is killing these teams. You land a James, your revenues go through the roof. You land a Boozer for the same money as James, and suddenly your cap is a mess and you're forced to pay the luxury tax to hang onto your backup SG, you finish 4th in the league every year, and you have no idea how you got into such a mess.

 

Sure, I get that, but has any sport really solved that problem? In my perspective it's enhanced in bball because you aren't allowing the market to actually set for the superstars. Since no one really knows what james/kobe are worth, then it makes mores sense to tilt forward than backwards. No one is going to accept "well, lebron only gets 18, so you should get 18". Lebron gets 18 b/c it's capped. I feel like teams have no leverage in that sense, they want a player, and the salary cap in the nba is more like tetris than any other game, add to that that it's not that difficult to move a bad contract because expiring contracts are gold in the NBA.