NBA Offseason Thread

[SoxAce]

personally, i am a little hesitant to trade for Carmelo after seeing how poorly Rose played with a dominant scorer on the team like Durant. Rose needs to take his shots to be effective and is not a great playmaker, and does not have the 3 point shooting to compliment Carmelo. Now, maybe the poor performance was a fluke or it had something to do with the FIBA style, but I am not sure if pairing Rose with Carmelo would be a better fit than having Rose and Noah.

 

So you want Rose to turn into a shooting guard? Cause at this point that is the route he is going. I take FIBA games with a huge grain of salt, but if you want to go that route, he had the most assist out of everyone in the tournament. (per 48 and a game) He has already shown better defense and court awareness than last year alone from evaluating him and oh yea.. he is still just 21 years old. Alot of times, FIBA basketball doesn't suit certain players. Rondo got cut from the team (ya.. Rondo.. not buying you "leaving") cause he doesn't fit that style of play. Don't know if you remember, but D-Will and Paul both struggled immensely in their first go at the FIBA tournament. When you have guys like Jasekevicus and Langdon who were Euro stars, but struggled in the NBA game, you always have to remember "ya.. there are FIBA games." Ball is much different, different rules, different three point line, etc.. etc.. Do I think Rose will ever see the floor like CP3, Nash, Rondo? Probably not, though he's shown flashes (remember a couple great passes to Deng, but Deng couldn't finish since he isn't strong inside) but surround him with some shooters, he can most certainly turn into D-Will (who doesn't have the greatest vision either well... not like those three or Billups) Obviously Westbrook has developed a touch faster. He has had a superstar to play with from day one, a competent coach, improved his shooting, etc. Rose though has the higher potential, already has improved his shooting, and has averaged 20/6 in his second full NBA season not to mention has done this pretty much by himself (can't say the same for Rondo, Westbrook etc..). He's got Boozer, Korver and needs one more shooter, and a defensive guy in Brewer paired with him in the backcourt. (and I like Thibs going back on running plays for Deng 2006-07 version) He'll be fine. Now give him a guy like Carmelo.. he will defer more (probably could net 10 assist) and not have all the pressure to be "the man." I was 90/10 on getting Melo for Noah 2 weeks ago. Now re-evaluating it.. I'm more like 60/40. Just something about Melo who "could not" be that great of a fit. (unlike a guy like LeBron who is more of a distributor, plays better D, and can score) I'd be shocked if he doesn't average 18-25(depending on Melo)/3-5/8-10 with a steal and a half and better shooting % from the three.

[Balta1701]

I was 90/10 on getting Melo for Noah 2 weeks ago. Now re-evaluating it.. I'm more like 60/40. Just something about Melo who "could not" be that great of a fit. (unlike a guy like LeBron who is more of a distributor, plays better D, and can score) I'd be shocked if he doesn't average 18-25(depending on Melo)/3-5/8-10 with a steal and a half and better shooting % from the three.

Wow...that's some lack of paragraphs.

 

I want to see how this season goes for the first half before I'd do that deal frankly. It's possible that any of Gibson, Noah, Johnson, Asik, or even others could make big steps forwards this year on a much deeper, better coached, and better constructed team. Remember, we've had Noah playing for VDN the last 2 years; if that doesn't hurt development I don't know what will.

 

See how everything goes before the deadline. If Gibson and Asik play well enough to convince the Bulls that they can be a legitimate C position rotation, and Noah's numbers are similar to last year's...I'd be willing to swap. The Bulls shouldn't be too aggressive here though; not after the overhaul their team has already done.

[thxfrthmmrs]

So you want Rose to turn into a shooting guard? Cause at this point that is the route he is going. I take FIBA games with a huge grain of salt, but if you want to go that route, he had the most assist out of everyone in the tournament. (per 48 and a game) He has already shown better defense and court awareness than last year alone from evaluating him and oh yea.. he is still just 21 years old. Alot of times, FIBA basketball doesn't suit certain players. Rondo got cut from the team (ya.. Rondo.. not buying you "leaving") cause he doesn't fit that style of play. Don't know if you remember, but D-Will and Paul both struggled immensely in their first go at the FIBA tournament. When you have guys like Jasekevicus and Langdon who were Euro stars, but struggled in the NBA game, you always have to remember "ya.. there are FIBA games." Ball is much different, different rules, different three point line, etc.. etc.. Do I think Rose will ever see the floor like CP3, Nash, Rondo? Probably not, though he's shown flashes (remember a couple great passes to Deng, but Deng couldn't finish since he isn't strong inside) but surround him with some shooters, he can most certainly turn into D-Will (who doesn't have the greatest vision either well... not like those three or Billups) Obviously Westbrook has developed a touch faster. He has had a superstar to play with from day one, a competent coach, improved his shooting, etc. Rose though has the higher potential, already has improved his shooting, and has averaged 20/6 in his second full NBA season not to mention has done this pretty much by himself (can't say the same for Rondo, Westbrook etc..). He's got Boozer, Korver and needs one more shooter, and a defensive guy in Brewer paired with him in the backcourt. (and I like Thibs going back on running plays for Deng 2006-07 version) He'll be fine. Now give him a guy like Carmelo.. he will defer more (probably could net 10 assist) and not have all the pressure to be "the man." I was 90/10 on getting Melo for Noah 2 weeks ago. Now re-evaluating it.. I'm more like 60/40. Just something about Melo who "could not" be that great of a fit. (unlike a guy like LeBron who is more of a distributor, plays better D, and can score) I'd be shocked if he doesn't average 18-25(depending on Melo)/3-5/8-10 with a steal and a half and better shooting % from the three.

 

Agreed

 

but most of what you said are based on pure projection, Rose hasn't done anything to be recognized as a "great" playmaker at the moment, which is what Kyyle is suggesting Rose is. All I am saying is Rose is not a great playmaker, and lacks 3point shooting to ideally compliment Carmelo.

 

@Kyyle, since you say you watch plenty of bulls games, I am just curious that on what ground is Rose a great playmaker, because so far, you haven't prove why he should be consider one.

 

If we were to trade our franchise center for another piece, don't you think it ought to be a piece that fits with our team/ We are lacking outside shooting and another tough wing defender right now. We should be good on the scoring with b00zer and rose getting 20 per.

[nitetrain8601]

Melo would be a better fit than LeBron. The reason for that is, the Bulls need someone who can take the reigns and score at will when it comes down to it. The only team Melo can't really figure out is the Lakers. Rose will play that LeBron role, Boozer, that low post scorer role, and Melo that "take over, get me the damn ball and watch me score" role.

 

I'd trade Noah for Melo, if for nothing else, the contracts. Noah turned down 12 mil a year already. Anything more than that and you're entering Tyson Chandler garbage contract territory. If you trade for Melo and keep Noah, you're going to have to give someone up anyway because the Bulls can't pay for Rose, Melo, Noah and Boozer all at the same time.

 

To get great players, you need to give up at least very good players. Noah is just that. I like him a lot, but I wouldn't keep him over Melo.

[nitetrain8601]

BTW, Rose is not a great playmaker. He's a great player, and he's a very good passer, great ballhandler, etc. But he cannot playmake, nor does he have excellent vision. At least not yet.

[SoxAce]

I'd trade Noah for Melo, if for nothing else, the contracts. Noah turned down 12 mil a year already.

 

That is one of the main reasons why I'm still in favor of netting Melo for him (60-40). If reports are true that the Bulls offered 12 million to him (and I still think that is crazy to begin with) than you have to deal him, especially for a guy who has plantar fasciitis, which Noah has indicated is still not completely 100% yet. That being said, it would have been better if Melo would have had these trade demands earlier in the season where the Bulls could have netted a serviceable center in the summer. I still think you give Rose a shooter like Rudy, have your Rose-Fernandez-Deng-Boozer-Noah lineup with one of the best benches in the league (Brewer, Korver, Gibson, Watson, K. Thomas, Bogans, Asik, Johnson or the great Salabrine) and watch him go nuts.

[thxfrthmmrs]

btw, stats can also prove my claim that Rose is not a great playmaker, not even a good one.

 

of all the point guards last season, Rose had the 2nd highest usage rate, behind Arenas, but ranked 56 out of 67 point guards in Assist rate, so can you really justify him being a great playmaker?

 

 

Also, Rose ranked 28th of all PG in terms of Rebound rate, extremely low for the most athletic point guard in the league, while Westbrook ranked 3rd, and rondo 5th, and we all know westbrook can play physical defense, play the passing lane and go for the steal and lead to easy dunks, can't say the same for Rose. Really, Rose can take some lessons from Westbrook on how to utilize his physical ability, cuz Rose, Westbrook and Rondo are really cut from the same clothes in terms of athleticism.

 

so guys, please get of my grills on this subject. thanks B)

Edited September 22, 2010 by thxfrthmmrs

[Rowand44]

btw, stats can also prove my claim that Rose is not a great playmaker, not even a good one.

 

of all the point guards last season, Rose had the 2nd highest usage rate, behind Arenas, but ranked 56 out of 67 point guards in Assist rate, so can you really justify him being a great playmaker?

 

so guys, please get of my grills on this subject. thanks B)

The offensive talent he had to work with was just superb as well.

[SoxAce]

btw, stats can also prove my claim that Rose is not a great playmaker, not even a good one.

 

of all the point guards last season, Rose had the 2nd highest usage rate, behind Arenas, but ranked 56 out of 67 point guards in Assist rate, so can you really justify him being a great playmaker?

 

so guys, please get of my grills on this subject. thanks B)

 

I'm one of the few who agrees with you, but I'm also in their camp when I say.. watch the games, at least more closely. Deng is one of the worst players to get assist with with his efficiency and tendency to pass up shots and drive to the hole, only to not finish. (not strong or athletic enough, which is why I'm interested to see what Thibs does with him if he runs plays Deng is strong at like Scott Skiles did in the early years) It seems everytime Rose passed the ball to an open man, he'd miss the shot. (or try to do too much with the ball, I.E. Deng, B. Miller, Salmons and his jab step, etc..) He doesn't have Ben Gordon anymore (and I'm not a big BG fan like nitetrain) so there goes the best shooter he's played with last year. When Kirk Hinrich is your only legitimate shooter on the floor more often than not (but has a PG first mentality which means he'd more often than not pass up the shot unless he is wide open, though he isn't THAT great of a shooter) then your screwed on assist efficiency. And please don't get me started on the rebounding rate.

Edited September 22, 2010 by J.Reedfan8

[thxfrthmmrs]

The offensive talent he had to work with was just superb as well.

 

 

really, the offense around him is THAT bad which lead to him having the 3rd worst ast/usg rate in the league?

 

you can't possibly justifying in saying Rose is a great playmaker, just can't

[whitesoxfan99]

Melo would be a better fit than LeBron. The reason for that is, the Bulls need someone who can take the reigns and score at will when it comes down to it. The only team Melo can't really figure out is the Lakers. Rose will play that LeBron role, Boozer, that low post scorer role, and Melo that "take over, get me the damn ball and watch me score" role.

 

How does this make any sense at all when LeBron has been a much better scorer than Melo not to mention being the much better passer, ball handler, rebounder, and defender.

[Balta1701]

I'd trade Noah for Melo, if for nothing else, the contracts. Noah turned down 12 mil a year already.

By the way...I'd like to add here...I haven't seen the explicit reports that "Noah turned down a $12 million a year contract" and if you have a link saying that I'd like to see it.

 

Most of what I've read has been along these lines...they've been talking for a while, there seems to be agreement that something will get done, but it hasn't gotten 100% serious yet.

Early this morning Marc Stein from ESPN reported that the Chicago front office is working on a contract extension that would keep starting center Joakim Noah on the Bulls roster for the long term:

 

"The sides have been negotiating quietly for weeks and sources close to the process say that sufficient progress has been made although no deal is imminent—to all but guarantee that terms on a five-year extension will be reached before the Halloween deadline."

 

"Noah is determined to stay in Chicago, one source assures, while the Bulls continue to send clear signals that they have no interest in parting with their center. Not even for someone of Anthony’s pedigree, as one source told ESPNChicago.com's Nick Friedell."

[SoxAce]

really, the offense around him is THAT bad which lead to him having the 3rd worst ast/usg rate in the league?

 

Who can you consider an all-star on his team? He doesn't have Durant, he doesn't have the Big Three. He doesn't have Amar'e and he didn't have Boozer till now like the other PGs do. He doesn't have Duncan, or Anthony, or Howard. He is by himself. Now.. if he digresses THIS season (since he has better talent), but you have a legitimate argument, but until then, your argument is flawed.

Edited September 22, 2010 by J.Reedfan8

[Balta1701]

really, the offense around him is THAT bad which lead to him having the 3rd worst ast/usg rate in the league?

 

you can't possibly justifying in saying Rose is a great playmaker, just can't

If we're asking was the Bulls offense bad...yes, absolutely...it was really bad. If you go by Offensive efficiency as defined by the NBA version of B-R, the Bulls were 27th out of 30 teams (points per 100 possessions). If you go simply by scoring, the Bulls were 24th of 30. That doesn't mean that Rose didn't have room for improvement on his passing...but the Bulls offense really was dreadful.

 

One other thing worth noting in terms solely of assist percentage...a lot of the time Rose spent on the floor last year there was another PG on the floor as well. Rose assisted on about 30% of his team's baskets, Hinrich assisted on 20%. Nash, for example, assisted on 50%.

[Kyyle23]

@Kyyle, since you say you watch plenty of bulls games, I am just curious that on what ground is Rose a great playmaker, because so far, you haven't prove why he should be consider one.

 

Because he is the one guy that could single-handedly carry that team the past two years with lackluster talent surrounding him. His first year, he was all drive to the hole, no midrange or 3 point shot. He worked on the midrange first, and increased his scoring 4 points a game. I am willing to bet that his 3 point shot is vastly improved seeing how all that was talked about was how he worked on it all summer long. His assists per game isnt shameful at 6, and we have seen flashes of his court vision being superb, it isnt consistent but it is there. I really think that when you put some talent around him that can shoot and defend, Rose will show you the playmaker that he is.

 

Like I said, you have your opinion, I have mine. Whatever the hell usage is, ok whatever

 

[thxfrthmmrs]

I'm one of the few who agrees with you, but I'm also in their camp when I say.. watch the games, at least more closely. Deng is one of the worst players to get assist with with his efficiency and tendency to pass up shots and drive to the hole, only to not finish. (not strong or athletic enough, which is why I'm interested to see what Thibs does with him if he runs plays Deng is strong at like Scott Skiles did in the early years) It seems everytime Rose passed the ball to an open man, he'd miss the shot. (or try to do too much with the ball, I.E. Deng, B. Miller, Salmons and his jab step, etc..) He doesn't have Ben Gordon anymore (and I'm not a big BG fan like nitetrain) so there goes the best shooter he's played with last year. When Kirk Hinrich is your only legitimate shooter on the floor more often than not (but has a PG first mentality which means he'd more often than not pass up the shot unless he is wide open, though he isn't THAT great of a shooter) then your screwed on assist efficiency. And please don't get me started on the rebounding rate.

 

I dont know what to say man, I just think a lot of players brick shots, or pass up shots in general, not just the bulls, it's not like Rose has the hardest teammates to pass the ball to. I tend to think the other way around. I am not sure if this has to do with the offense Vinny runs, but if Rose can set up players with good looks inside or around the basket, instead of midrange or perimeter shots, they would more likely convert them into baskets. granted, deng is not a great athlete, but he has shown he has the ability to finish around the basket with some post moves and occasional drives to the basket (he did that a lot more last season), and put backs, noah and taj are also capable or finishing around the basket as well. If Rose is really a floor general like some people claim that he is, he can orchestrate the offense and direct where the players should go, and set something up out of nothing, you see that with Nash, Paul, Rondo, kidd and Dwill, who are the true great playmakers, that's why I said, right now, Rose is not a great playmaker. That doesn't mean he won't develop into one. With new system, new teammates this season, he can probably improve in that department, but he will not match the likes of the aforementioned.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Because he is the one guy that could single-handedly carry that team the past two years with lackluster talent surrounding him. His first year, he was all drive to the hole, no midrange or 3 point shot. He worked on the midrange first, and increased his scoring 4 points a game. I am willing to bet that his 3 point shot is vastly improved seeing how all that was talked about was how he worked on it all summer long. His assists per game isnt shameful at 6, and we have seen flashes of his court vision being superb, it isnt consistent but it is there. I really think that when you put some talent around him that can shoot and defend, Rose will show you the playmaker that he is.

 

Like I said, you have your opinion, I have mine. Whatever the hell usage is, ok whatever

 

 

most of what you said equates to a great scorer, not a great playmaker.

[Balta1701]

One other thing worth noting...Thibodeau supposedly clinched the job with his discussion of how he would employ a Drive and Kick style of offense with the DR1 field and Brush Mower.

Thibodeau has served as an assistant with seven teams over 18 NBA seasons, finishing in the top 10 defensively 15 times. But sources said Thibodeau wowed executive vice president John Paxson and general manager Gar Forman with creative offensive ideas centered on drive-and-kick and pick-and-roll schemes, as well as thoughts on player development.

VDN, on the other hand, as we all know, employed an offense heavily reliant on the pick and roll. In particular, it used the high pick and roll, with Noah usually heading out front to set a screen for Rose. Rose was fast enough that from the outside if you gave him separation he could still break down into the lane, but the fact that you're starting high and taking Noah out away from the basket meant that the only guy left down low who could be an option to dish the ball was Taj Gibson/Brad Miller/whoever else was in the game. ON top of that, the guys that were outside of the lane (Deng, etc.) weren't either outside shooters nor were they in position to take advantage of Rose's penetration with an open shot if he did break down the defense (This is why Deng's hanging out by the 3 point line without moving was so frustrating).

 

Without an outside threat, the high pick and roll basically gave Rose 1 option; drive and try to score. He needed to be better about drawing contact, everyone ought to be able to agree on that, but it's worth stressing that ball movement wasn't going to be a practical result of VDN's offense. The Drive and Kick style combined with some level of (less formulaic) pick and roll, along with a better set of outside threats and a legitimate inside scoring threat ought to improve those assist options substantially.

[thxfrthmmrs]

Who can you consider an all-star on his team? He doesn't have Durant, he doesn't have the Big Three. He doesn't have Amar'e and he didn't have Boozer till now like the other PGs do. He doesn't have Duncan, or Anthony, or Howard. He is by himself. Now.. if he digresses THIS season (since he has better talent), but you have a legitimate argument, but until then, your argument is flawed.

 

 

who did nash have when amare went out? who did dwill have when boozer went down, who did paul has when West, Peja, or chandler went down? Let's not forget Rose did have BG for a year, and Salmons for half seasons, deng is a pretty good scorer in his own right with 17 ppg, though if you use your own logic, you probably point to that he is a hard teammate to work with.

[sircaffey]

Rose's athleticism is so far above everyone else on the Bulls' roster, that it can become a problem running the floor. You give him a running mate like who's athletically similar, and Rose's assist numbers will shoot up merely from fast-break situations. The Bulls have to be at the bottom of the league in terms of athleticism the past couple years. It's been pathetic.

[whitesoxfan99]

One other thing worth noting...Thibodeau supposedly clinched the job with his discussion of how he would employ a Drive and Kick style of offense with the DR1 field and Brush Mower.

VDN, on the other hand, as we all know, employed an offense heavily reliant on the pick and roll. In particular, it used the high pick and roll, with Noah usually heading out front to set a screen for Rose. Rose was fast enough that from the outside if you gave him separation he could still break down into the lane, but the fact that you're starting high and taking Noah out away from the basket meant that the only guy left down low who could be an option to dish the ball was Taj Gibson/Brad Miller/whoever else was in the game. ON top of that, the guys that were outside of the lane (Deng, etc.) weren't either outside shooters nor were they in position to take advantage of Rose's penetration with an open shot if he did break down the defense (This is why Deng's hanging out by the 3 point line without moving was so frustrating).

 

Without an outside threat, the high pick and roll basically gave Rose 1 option; drive and try to score. He needed to be better about drawing contact, everyone ought to be able to agree on that, but it's worth stressing that ball movement wasn't going to be a practical result of VDN's offense. The Drive and Kick style combined with some level of (less formulaic) pick and roll, along with a better set of outside threats and a legitimate inside scoring threat ought to improve those assist options substantially.

 

And yet Boozer's entire offensive game the last few years has been the high pick and roll with Dwill.

[Balta1701]

Another version of that:

There are also questions about Del Negro's competency as a coach -- both around the league and within the Bulls organization and locker room. Scouts say his offensive scheme is among the simplest in the league.

 

"The reason why you hear that he can't coach is because they literally only run five plays,'' one scout said. "It's either middle pick-and-roll, side pick-and-roll, or they run the flex set. That's high school stuff. But that said, I think he's done a good job this year."

 

Del Negro's system had a little more variety last season when he had Ben Gordon to work with, but this season, he's simplified his offense to fit his personnel. He's got no post-scoring threat to speak of and no outside shooters besides Kirk Hinrich, who's far from a sharpshooter.

 

"I'm not a big fan of his X's and O's,'' another scout said. "But hey, if I had Derrick Rose, I'd put him in pick-and-rolls all game too."

[Balta1701]

And yet Boozer's entire offensive game the last few years has been the high pick and roll with Dwill.

There's nothing wrong with the high pick and roll if you have the horse to finish on the "roll" part. Ideally on the pick and roll, the guy setting the screen is the guy who should get open for the shot; his man has to take the penetrator and he's matched up against the smaller defender. No one on the Bulls could handle that job though. Rose had to be the scorer because even if both defenders involved collapsed on him, he could beat them while the uncovered guy couldn't do anything.

[thxfrthmmrs]

If we're asking was the Bulls offense bad...yes, absolutely...it was really bad. If you go by Offensive efficiency as defined by the NBA version of B-R, the Bulls were 27th out of 30 teams (points per 100 possessions). If you go simply by scoring, the Bulls were 24th of 30. That doesn't mean that Rose didn't have room for improvement on his passing...but the Bulls offense really was dreadful.

 

One other thing worth noting in terms solely of assist percentage...a lot of the time Rose spent on the floor last year there was another PG on the floor as well. Rose assisted on about 30% of his team's baskets, Hinrich assisted on 20%. Nash, for example, assisted on 50%.

 

 

maybe it had to do with their best player ranked 42nd in league in PER, and who is also the go to scorer, ranks 32 of all point guards in TS%? Offensive efficiency is a team stat, so it's not just the player around Rose.

[whitesoxfan99]

There's nothing wrong with the high pick and roll if you have the horse to finish on the "roll" part. Ideally on the pick and roll, the guy setting the screen is the guy who should get open for the shot; his man has to take the penetrator and he's matched up against the smaller defender. No one on the Bulls could handle that job though. Rose had to be the scorer because even if both defenders involved collapsed on him, he could beat them while the uncovered guy couldn't do anything.

 

That is simply ridiculous because if you get the ball to Noah uncovered he will score or at least take the jumper if he pops rather than goes to the basket. Rose was not great at running the pick and roll last year, I do agree Noah isn't the ideal big man to run it with but Rose also was not adept (and this was probably Noah's fault as well) at reading the defense and angles and creating easy opportunities for Noah the way premier PGs do when running the pick and roll.