NBA Offseason Thread

[mmmmmbeeer]

I expect at least semi-regression from the Bulls. Everybody knows they overachieved last year.

 

 

They did in the sense that they finished with the league's best record with their front-court decimated by injuries throughout the season, Bogans starting at SG, and a brand new coach. This year, if they finish with the league's best record, they'll meet expectations.

 

Replacing Keith Bogans with Rip is an upgrade no matter which way you try to twist it...going from 6ppg to 17 with comparable defense is a massive upgrade. Can he create off the dribble? Of course not...but he will score and will relieve some of the pressure from Rose.

 

Omer will be huge this year after some invaluable experience last year. Same with Taj. The Bench Mob will be insane on the defensive end of the court which, of course, makes it less important that they can't score consistently.

 

The Bulls depth is wholly unmatched in either conference...this should play well given the condensed schedule. A team that was already tops on D under a first year head coach will truly be smothering this year after a full year in the system.

 

I really can only see Miami hanging with the Bulls out of the East...and no other team is even close. NYK may have some star-power, but their backcourt is a joke and their depth miserable. Boston is on their way down. ORL, even if Dwight stays, has really done nothing to improve from a mediocre team. Atlanta is weaker. Indy is better but still not "good".

[bmags]

New all-black alternate Heat jersey makes me throw up in my mouth a little bit.

 

 

He looks like someone at IML

Edited December 13, 2011 by bmags

[Jordan4life_2007]

Oh my goodness. Again, Rip is awful. He's old, unathletic, can't create a shot for himself or anybody else, and is a hack defensively. He's better than Keith Bogans so that's an upgrade? lol. The Bulls were not 62 wins good last year. Their division was terrible. It might be terrible again. Who knows. They still have nobody to take the scoring/playmaking load off of Rose. They have nobody that commands a double-team inside. Boozer, even when healthy, is a hack defensively. Athletic front-courts eat him for breakfast. And the Knicks now have the best front-court in the east. Even with the Knicks' deficiencies last year, they're a 50+ win team with 'Melo. Amare/Melo should be even better this year now that they've had a chance to mesh some. Tyson Chandler changes everything. Talk about Dirk all you want. Tyson's elite defensively abilities were the difference between last year's Mavs and all the other chocking teams they've had in the past. Their backcourt is not terrible. Fields > Rip. No question there. I can think of a lot worse PGs than Douglas. Knicks, Bulls can go either way. But the Knicks have improved. The Bulls simply haven't.

Edited December 13, 2011 by Jordan4life

[fathom]

Oh my goodness. Again, Rip is awful. He's old, unathletic, can't create a shot for himself or anybody else, and is a hack defensively. He's better than Keith Bogans so that's an upgrade? lol. The Bulls were not 62 wins good last year. Their division was terrible. It might be terrible again. Who knows. They still have nobody to take the scoring/playmaking load off of Rose. They have nobody that commands a double-team inside. Boozer, even when healthy, is a hack defensively. Athletic front-courts eat him for breakfast. And the Knicks now have the best front-court in the east. Even with the Knicks' deficiencies last year, they're a 50+ win team with 'Melo. Amare/Melo should be even better this year now that they've had a chance to mesh some. Tyson Chandler changes everything. Talk about Dirk all you want. Tyson's elite defensively abilities were the difference between last year's Mavs and all the other chocking teams they've had in the past. Their backcourt is not terrible. Fields > Rip. No question there. I can think of a lot worse PGs than Douglas. Knicks, Bulls can go either way. But the Knicks have improved. The Bulls simply haven't.

 

Knicks have added some great defensive players this offseason in Chandler and Shumpert, but I highly doubt their coach will motivate them to defend as hard as they need to.

[RockRaines]

Knicks have added some great defensive players this offseason in Chandler and Shumpert, but I highly doubt their coach will motivate them to defend as hard as they need to.

Not sure he can coach defense.

 

The Bulls bench will beat up pretty much any bench in the league, and thats what helps make a regular season record. A full season of all of their players also improves the Bulls overall.

 

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Oh my goodness. Again, Rip is awful. He's old, unathletic, can't create a shot for himself or anybody else, and is a hack defensively. He's better than Keith Bogans so that's an upgrade? lol. The Bulls were not 62 wins good last year. Their division was terrible. It might be terrible again. Who knows. They still have nobody to take the scoring/playmaking load off of Rose. They have nobody that commands a double-team inside. Boozer, even when healthy, is a hack defensively. Athletic front-courts eat him for breakfast. And the Knicks now have the best front-court in the east. Even with the Knicks' deficiencies last year, they're a 50+ win team with 'Melo. Amare/Melo should be even better this year now that they've had a chance to mesh some. Tyson Chandler changes everything. Talk about Dirk all you want. Tyson's elite defensively abilities were the difference between last year's Mavs and all the other chocking teams they've had in the past. Their backcourt is not terrible. Fields > Rip. No question there. I can think of a lot worse PGs than Douglas. Knicks, Bulls can go either way. But the Knicks have improved. The Bulls simply haven't.

 

The major flaw here is that you're talking about Rip and Boozer being "hacks" defensively when comparing them to a team that employs Amare Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony. Those two guys don't even try on defense most of the time. Oh, and the Bulls were #1 in defensive efficiency last year by a solid margin even with Boozer. One player does not make or break a defense (with the exception of Dwight). Dallas was 8th in defensive efficiency last year and 12th the year before, not exactly night and day.

 

Also, the Knicks were 28-26 before they acquired Melo and finished 42-40, so it doesn't seem like he made nearly enough difference to say they'd be a 50-win team if he were there all year.

 

They're probably the 3rd or 4th best team in the East depending on how much Boston ages. They only have five players that are remotely useful and their two frontcourt players have extremely checkered injury histories.

 

One other thing to point out is that Chandler is going to have to play A LOT more minutes than he did last year. He only played 27.8 MPG for Dallas because they actually have depth. The Knicks are screwed if that doesn't increase by a lot, which doesn't help with his injury history.

Edited December 13, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[jenksycat]

Oh my goodness. Again, Rip is awful. He's old, unathletic, can't create a shot for himself or anybody else, and is a hack defensively. He's better than Keith Bogans so that's an upgrade? lol. The Bulls were not 62 wins good last year. Their division was terrible. It might be terrible again. Who knows. They still have nobody to take the scoring/playmaking load off of Rose. They have nobody that commands a double-team inside. Boozer, even when healthy, is a hack defensively. Athletic front-courts eat him for breakfast. And the Knicks now have the best front-court in the east. Even with the Knicks' deficiencies last year, they're a 50+ win team with 'Melo. Amare/Melo should be even better this year now that they've had a chance to mesh some. Tyson Chandler changes everything. Talk about Dirk all you want. Tyson's elite defensively abilities were the difference between last year's Mavs and all the other chocking teams they've had in the past. Their backcourt is not terrible. Fields > Rip. No question there. I can think of a lot worse PGs than Douglas. Knicks, Bulls can go either way. But the Knicks have improved. The Bulls simply haven't.

 

So you agree Rip is better than Bogans...but don't agree that it's an upgrade? You realize that makes 0 sense, correct?

[Jordan4life_2007]

The major flaw here is that you're talking about Rip and Boozer being "hacks" defensively when comparing them to a team that employs Amare Stoudemire and Carmelo Anthony. Those two guys don't even try on defense most of the time. Oh, and the Bulls were #1 in defensive efficiency last year by a solid margin even with Boozer. One player does not make or break a defense (with the exception of Dwight). Dallas was 8th in defensive efficiency last year and 12th the year before, not exactly night and day.

 

Also, the Knicks were 28-26 before they acquired Melo and finished 42-40, so it doesn't seem like he made nearly enough difference to say they'd be a 50-win team if he were there all year.

 

They're probably the 3rd or 4th best team in the East depending on how much Boston ages. They only have five players that are remotely useful and their two frontcourt players have extremely checkered injury histories.

 

One other thing to point out is that Chandler is going to have to play A LOT more minutes than he did last year. He only played 27.8 MPG for Dallas because they actually have depth. The Knicks are screwed if that doesn't increase by a lot, which doesn't help with his injury history.

 

And that's where Tyson comes in. How many all-defensive teams has Dirk made? A dominant defensive big can cover up a lot of other inadequacies. Yes, Tyson will take on more minutes. No reason he shouldn't be able to handle it. He's healthy and, what, 28? The Knicks' bench is not very good, though Shumpert has a chance to be an impact player. But who cares. It's the east and depth doesn't matter that much. They're better than the Bulls at at least 4/5 positions in the starting lineup.

[Kalapse]

This is creepy. What's the antithesis of the Shawn Kemp award?

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

So you agree Rip is better than Bogans...but don't agree that it's an upgrade? You realize that makes 0 sense, correct?

 

No, I don't think he is. That's the reasoning around here. 2005 was a long time ago.

[bmags]

Peddling in absurdity, that's the J4L I know.

[Brian]

If the Bulls could of gotten someone better than Rip, I'm sure they would have but to say he can't create is own shot is sort of off the mark. He averages double digits every year and will be open a lot when Rose has the ball. Of course he isn't the ideal pick up but for what is available, it is tons better than last year.

The Pistons flat out D'd up during there runs a few years ago. I'm guessing he had some part of that.

[jenksycat]

No, I don't think he is. That's the reasoning around here. 2005 was a long time ago.

 

So he's worse than Bogans in every aspect of the game then?

 

 

[bmags]

If the Bulls could of gotten someone better than Rip, I'm sure they would have but to say he can't create is own shot is sort of off the mark. He averages double digits every year and will be open a lot when Rose has the ball. Of course he isn't the ideal pick up but for what is available, it is tons better than last year.

The Pistons flat out D'd up during there runs a few years ago. I'm guessing he had some part of that.

 

Does Rip need screens to get open? Yes. But a big benefit to Rip over Bogans is Rip is very good at off-the-ball movement. Which is much improved, since bogans would just sit there and watch rose.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Does Rip need screens to get open? Yes.

 

He doesn't when his man leaves him to double up Rose.

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

So he's worse than Bogans in every aspect of the game then?

 

They're both bad. Neither should be playing significant roles for a team with championship aspirations.

[sircaffey]

Hamilton is much better than Keith Bogans.

[ZoomSlowik]

And that's where Tyson comes in. How many all-defensive teams has Dirk made? A dominant defensive big can cover up a lot of other inadequacies. Yes, Tyson will take on more minutes. No reason he shouldn't be able to handle it. He's healthy and, what, 28? The Knicks' bench is not very good, though Shumpert has a chance to be an impact player. But who cares. It's the east and depth doesn't matter that much. They're better than the Bulls at at least 4/5 positions in the starting lineup.

 

That would imply that Tyson is a "dominant" defensive big man and not merely a good one. As I said, Dallas wasn't a dominant defensive team (8th in efficiency) and the net impact from 9/10 to 10/11 in Dallas was only 1.3 points per 100 possessions, and that's with Dallas splitting starts between Erik Dampier, Brendan Haywood and Drew Gooden (what I would call two serviceable defenders and a terrible one).

 

I would think a truly dominant defensive big man (someone like Dwight or Mutombo) would make a far bigger impact than that. That's what the Knicks need considering they were 22nd in defensive efficiency last year. It's not like he has a career with that kind of reputation early, this "defensive stopper" persona is quite recent. He put up PER's below 14 the two years before this and the Mavericks were able to get him for basically nothing. One year later he's some kind of monster because his team won it all.

 

I would also love to know how the Knicks are better than the Bulls at "at least" five positions. They're not remotely close at point guard, so that's already off. I think most would argue that Noah is about as good as Chandler and is younger. Even if the Knicks have the edge at the other 3 (and it's not like they have a world-beater at the 2 either), it's about how the pieces fit together too. The Bulls are an elite defensive team with good depth while the Knicks are a likely mediocre defensive team with no bench. Those things matter, otherwise the Suns would have a ring or two and the Nuggets when they had AI, Carmelo and Camby would have been a lot better.

 

Bottom line is that you're trying to argue that the Knicks are better than/as good as the Bulls even though they won 20 fewer games last year and basically traded Billups for Chandler. That's highly dubious even if you subtract a few from the Bulls.

Edited December 14, 2011 by ZoomSlowik

[Quin]

Hamilton is much better than Keith Bogans.

 

And Landry Fields. Averaged more points and assists in a worse situation last year in less minutes.

 

As for Tyson, he's fifth best defensive center, not counting backups like Asik (who is #2). Centers last year with higher D ratings then Chandler:

 

1. Dwight Howard (93.99)

2. Joakim Noah (96.78)

3. Andrew Bogut (97.31)

4. Marcus Camby (99.84)

5. Tyson Chandler (102)

 

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

That would imply that Tyson is a "dominant" defensive big man and not merely a good one. As I said, Dallas wasn't a dominant defensive team (8th in efficiency) and the net impact from 9/10 to 10/11 in Dallas was only 1.3 points per 100 possessions, and that's with Dallas splitting starts between Erik Dampier, Brendan Haywood and Drew Gooden (what I would call two serviceable defenders and a terrible one).

 

I would think a truly dominant defensive big man (someone like Dwight or Mutombo) would make a far bigger impact than that. That's what the Knicks need considering they were 22nd in defensive efficiency last year. It's not like he has a career with that kind of reputation early, this "defensive stopper" persona is quite recent. He put up PER's below 14 the two years before this and the Mavericks were able to get him for basically nothing. One year later he's some kind of monster because his team won it all.

 

I would also love to know how the Knicks are better than the Bulls at "at least" five positions. They're not remotely close at point guard, so that's already off. I think most would argue that Noah is about as good as Chandler and is younger. Even if the Knicks have the edge at the other 3 (and it's not like they have a world-beater at the 2 either), it's about how the pieces fit together too. The Bulls are an elite defensive team with good depth while the Knicks are a likely mediocre defensive team with no bench. Those things matter, otherwise the Suns would have a ring or two and the Nuggets when they had AI, Amare and Camby would have been a lot better.

 

Bottom line is that you're trying to argue that the Knicks are better than/as good as the Bulls even though they won 20 fewer games last year and basically traded Billups for Chandler. That's highly dubious even if you subtract a few from the Bulls.

 

lol. My fault. I meant to say at least 3/5 positions in the starting 5. No amount of alcohol in the world would get me thinking Douglas was better or in the same universe as Rose. Besides that, whatever. You make some good points. I think you totally underestimate having Carmelo from jump as opposed to inserting him mid-season. The Bulls have done nothing to improve from last year, and that includes the draft. All I've heard is "youngest MVP ever" that should get better. And I agree that he should get better. Whether that will be enough to trump likely regression from the rest of the team remains to be seen.

 

[bmags]

And Landry Fields. Averaged more points and assists in a worse situation last year in less minutes.

 

As for Tyson, he's fifth best defensive center, not counting backups like Asik (who is #2). Centers last year with higher D ratings then Chandler:

 

1. Dwight Howard (93.99)

2. Joakim Noah (96.78)

3. Andrew Bogut (97.31)

4. Marcus Camby (99.84)

5. Tyson Chandler (102)

 

That shows you how valuable Howard is, he's the only one of those that can stay healthy.

[Quin]

lol. My fault. I meant to say at least 3/5 positions in the starting 5. No amount of alcohol in the world would get me thinking Douglas was better or in the same universe as Rose. Besides that, whatever. You make some good points. I think you totally underestimate having Carmelo from jump as opposed to inserting him mid-season. The Bulls have done nothing to improve from last year, and that includes the draft. All I've heard is "youngest MVP ever" that should get better. And I agree that he should get better. Whether that will be enough to trump likely regression from the rest of the team remains to be seen.

 

Rose >>>>>>> Douglas

Rip = Fields

Deng

Boozer

Noah > Tyson

 

Not counting the bench, which would b**** slap the Knicks bench to oblivion.

[ZoomSlowik]

lol. My fault. I meant to say at least 3/5 positions in the starting 5. No amount of alcohol in the world would get me thinking Douglas was better or in the same universe as Rose. Besides that, whatever. You make some good points. I think you totally underestimate having Carmelo from jump as opposed to inserting him mid-season. The Bulls have done nothing to improve from last year, and that includes the draft. All I've heard is "youngest MVP ever" that should get better. And I agree that he should get better. Whether that will be enough to trump likely regression from the rest of the team remains to be seen.

 

I think they'll "improve" but it won't manifest itself in the standings. 62 wins is a lot, so it'd be hard to go up. Regular season wins are highly overrated in my opinion. The Heat won fewer games than Lebron's last two Cavs' teams, but I think everyone would agree that the Heat were far more dangerous. I don't really see them "regressing" anywhere but in the standings, and even then I think they can get the #1 seed because they're built for the grind of the regular season.

 

There are two main things I'm looking for from the Bulls for improvement 1) Noah being healthier and more consistent 2) Rose getting more efficient and putting up the same stats in fewer minutes with a better FG%. I'm not a big Rip fan either, but if he can provide any kind of offense that would give them a different dimension as well. That way they can run TWO guys off a billion screens instead of just having Korver do it!

 

I've got the Knicks at about 50, which is a sizeable improvement already but probably 5-10 short of the Heat/Bulls. Carmelo is a damn good player, but he's never seemed to have the same kind of ability to carry an inferior roster like most of the other superstars have. Same goes for Amare, at times he might have been the third best player in Phoenix. They're both incredibly talented but still need to put everything together to reach the elite level as a team, especially since Chandler isn't really the kind of #3 that can pick up the scoring slack.

 

 

 

 

[Kyyle23]

lol. My fault. I meant to say at least 3/5 positions in the starting 5. No amount of alcohol in the world would get me thinking Douglas was better or in the same universe as Rose. Besides that, whatever. You make some good points. I think you totally underestimate having Carmelo from jump as opposed to inserting him mid-season. The Bulls have done nothing to improve from last year, and that includes the draft. All I've heard is "youngest MVP ever" that should get better. And I agree that he should get better. Whether that will be enough to trump likely regression from the rest of the team remains to be seen.

 

where is this likely regression you are referring to? who played so much over their heads in your opinion?

[sircaffey]

The Bulls were 25-2 in the regular season when Bogans scored 6 or more points.