southsider2k5 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (KyYlE23 @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 01:51 PM) Really, this is all conjecture. We dont know what happens behind the scenes It is Rose's quotes I am basing this on, not Joe Cowley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 01:42 PM) Because Bill Russell is a top 10 player (conservatively) of all time, and Motumbo wa a one trick pony who blocked shots. LOL, good luck with this argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 01:48 PM) Correct me if I'm wrong, but the team that won the championship last year had one superstar player right? Rose isn't in Dirk's league either. That was also a way better team than the Bulls have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 01:42 PM) Because Bill Russell is a top 10 player (conservatively) of all time, and Motumbo wa a one trick pony who blocked shots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:57 PM) Rose isn't in Dirk's league either. Really? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Hurtin Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (LittleHurt05 @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:55 PM) LOL, good luck with this argument. Which part A. Russell's greatness B. Motumbo being overrated C. Arguing with J4L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:03 PM) Which part A. Russell's greatness B. Motumbo being overrated C. Arguing with J4L Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Balta1701 @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:00 PM) Really? Dirk's been at that level for a long period of time, i'll give him that. But Dirk wasn't this good at 22 either. Edited December 14, 2011 by Jenksismybitch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (southsider2k5 @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 01:57 PM) Rose isn't in Dirk's league either. That was also a way better team than the Bulls have. Drugs + You = Bad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 I don't think it's awful that Rose can't recruit, but I do think that is preventing us from getting this CURRENT CROP of superstars. Rose isn't a cohort with the players were speaking of now. At some point we may very well get someone that wants to play with Rose b/c they used to ball together. Maybe Evan Turner becomes amazing...I HOPE. He'd come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balta1701 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 03:09 PM) Dirk's been at that level for a long period of time, i'll give him that. But Dirk wasn't this good at 22 either. Yeah, Rose hasn't been an NBA all star for a decade, I'll grant that also. But that's kinda a hard standard to hold him to. Hell, if we want to go by PER in the Regular season last year...#9 in the NBA was Derrick Rose, #10 was Dirk Nowitzki. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenksismyhero Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:12 PM) I don't think it's awful that Rose can't recruit, but I do think that is preventing us from getting this CURRENT CROP of superstars. Rose isn't a cohort with the players were speaking of now. At some point we may very well get someone that wants to play with Rose b/c they used to ball together. Maybe Evan Turner becomes amazing...I HOPE. He'd come. Wasn't the rumor last year that Rose, Westbrook and Love all wanted to play together? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:03 PM) Which part A. Russell's greatness B. Motumbo being overrated C. Arguing with J4L Its useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Jenksismyb**** @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:24 PM) Wasn't the rumor last year that Rose, Westbrook and Love all wanted to play together? I think they just practice together in the offseason. I think Rose is his own guy and never felt the need to bring in someone else to help him win. Its been him against the world since his birth in englewood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (RockRaines @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 08:28 PM) I think they just practice together in the offseason. I think Rose is his own guy and never felt the need to bring in someone else to help him win. Its been him against the world since his birth in englewood. What about Memphis? Wasn't exactly the place to go if you wanted to be on your own. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 (edited) QUOTE (Big Hurtin @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 01:42 PM) Because Bill Russell is a top 10 player (conservatively) of all time, and Motumbo wa a one trick pony who blocked shots. Don't fall for the propaganda. Bill Russell is unequivocally the most overrated figure in NBA history. Right there with the "great" Roger Maris for most overrated, glamorized figure in sports history. He had Joakim Noah's offensive skill-set. His rebounding numbers are totally inflated due to the ridiculous pace teams played back then. He played with 66 Hall of Famers. Dikembe Mutombo saw stiffer competition in a month than Russell saw in 3 years. Centers better than Russell: Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Walton, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson. Centers arguably better than Russell: Mikan, Ewing, Sabonis. Centers comparable with the same skill-set: Mutombo, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Howard. Players overall better than Bill Russell: MJ, Magic, Bird, West, Duncan, Kobe, Erving, Robertson, Dirk, and some others I'm probably forgetting about. Edited December 14, 2011 by Jordan4life Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 Maybe Rose can get his brother to do the recruiting for him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockRaines Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:29 PM) What about Memphis? Wasn't exactly the place to go if you wanted to be on your own. Yes, but thats the type of place to go if you dont want to take the SAT's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogua Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 The Russell argument is always something that interests me. I tend to agree with J4L that he is overrated, although I think a factor is the way basketball is played now. Don't get me wrong Russell dominated his era, but I feel a player of his ability would have a much easier time doing it back then than in the past 30 or so years. He was extremely agile, could run the floor well, and was a very good shot blocker and rebounder. Consider that the era that he played in was played at a very hectic pace where jump shots weren't all that common and people shot low % shots. Wouldn't that make it easier for someone like Russell to have a massive effect on the game? Rebounds were plentiful and blocks weren't all that hard to come by. Elgin baylor, a small forward, had a season where he averaged 20 rebounds per game. So I think Russell's game translates VERY well to the type of basketball played during that era (hence the 11 rings), but I don't think he's a top player if he plays in a different era. I honestly don't think anybody can really make the argument that he would be nearly as successful in today's era. The guy was not very good at offense. He was a career 44% shooter in an era where he should have dominated on offense (Wilt). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) Don't fall for the propaganda. Bill Russell is unequivocally the most overrated figure in NBA history. Right there with the "great" Roger Maris for most overrated, glamorized figure in sports history. He had Joakim Noah's offensive skill-set. His rebounding numbers are totally inflated due to the ridiculous pace teams played back then. He played with 66 Hall of Famers. Dikembe Mutombo saw stiffer competition in a month than Russell saw in 3 years. Centers better than Russell: Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Walton, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson. Centers arguably better than Russell: Mikan, Ewing, Sabonis. Centers comparable with the same skill-set: Mutombo, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Howard. Players overall better than Bill Russell: MJ, Magic, Bird, West, Duncan, Kobe, Erving, Robertson, Dirk, and some others I'm probably forgetting about. I have to agree that Russell is definitely overrated. Maybe not to the level you think, but overrated, specifically due to the championships. He consistenly had multiple HOFers on his teams. Just because he won with those guys doesn't automatically make him a top-5 player as some seem to think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogua Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Jordan4life @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:30 PM) Don't fall for the propaganda. Bill Russell is unequivocally the most overrated figure in NBA history. Right there with the "great" Roger Maris for most overrated, glamorized figure in sports history. He had Joakim Noah's offensive skill-set. His rebounding numbers are totally inflated due to the ridiculous pace teams played back then. He played with 66 Hall of Famers. Dikembe Mutombo saw stiffer competition in a month than Russell saw in 3 years. Centers better than Russell: Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Walton, Shaq, Hakeem, Robinson. Centers arguably better than Russell: Mikan, Ewing, Sabonis. Centers comparable with the same skill-set: Mutombo, Mourning, Ben Wallace, Howard. Players overall better than Bill Russell: MJ, Magic, Bird, West, Duncan, Kobe, Erving, Robertson, Dirk, and some others I'm probably forgetting about. I missed this post, but yeah, I pretty much agree with most of that. Although Russell does deserve some credit for 11 rings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleHurt05 Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 From 1956-1964, the Celtics had a minimum of 6 HOFers on their team every year, some years 7 or 8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve9347 Posted December 14, 2011 Author Share Posted December 14, 2011 It's unfair to compare Russell's game to those of players playing today. The fact of the matter is, he rose above the competition. In a world of advanced metrics, I'd think people would be all about this. Bill Russell was one of the best of his era, of this there is zero doubt. He was not privy to sports medicine and science today, and he was only able to play against the competition... which he dominated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (Boogua @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 08:46 PM) The Russell argument is always something that interests me. I tend to agree with J4L that he is overrated, although I think a factor is the way basketball is played now. Don't get me wrong Russell dominated his era, but I feel a player of his ability would have a much easier time doing it back then than in the past 30 or so years. He was extremely agile, could run the floor well, and was a very good shot blocker and rebounder. Consider that the era that he played in was played at a very hectic pace where jump shots weren't all that common and people shot low % shots. Wouldn't that make it easier for someone like Russell to have a massive effect on the game? Rebounds were plentiful and blocks weren't all that hard to come by. Elgin baylor, a small forward, had a season where he averaged 20 rebounds per game. So I think Russell's game translates VERY well to the type of basketball played during that era (hence the 11 rings), but I don't think he's a top player if he plays in a different era. I honestly don't think anybody can really make the argument that he would be nearly as successful in today's era. The guy was not very good at offense. He was a career 44% shooter in an era where he should have dominated on offense (Wilt). Fine, but I have a real problem with people 50 years later trying to re-write the story in their vision. In 50 years, don't you think people will look back and say "how the hell did Lebron James NOT win the MVP this year?" But to the people who lived and watched, it was impossible for that man to get that award. And for the people who watched, if you ask them, it would be impossible for them to accept our assertion that, no, no, you see Wilt was actually better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boogua Posted December 14, 2011 Share Posted December 14, 2011 QUOTE (bmags @ Dec 14, 2011 -> 02:58 PM) Fine, but I have a real problem with people 50 years later trying to re-write the story in their vision. In 50 years, don't you think people will look back and say "how the hell did Lebron James NOT win the MVP this year?" But to the people who lived and watched, it was impossible for that man to get that award. And for the people who watched, if you ask them, it would be impossible for them to accept our assertion that, no, no, you see Wilt was actually better! Interestingly enough those same people had Wilt make 7 all nba first teams while Russell made 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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