Gotta agree with Cowley on this

[kitekrazy]

GM Williams needs to be honest about Sox' plight

 

http://www.suntimes.com/sports/baseball/wh...T-joe21.article

[southsider2k5]

How stupid is Joe Cowley that he can't figure out that this is a part of Kenny Williams job? I don't ever recall a Joe Cowley article on the plight of the Chicago Sun Times and what their steady spiral down the toilet has done to the quality of his newspaper. Why? BECAUSE IT IS HIS JOB TO SELL NEWSPAPERS, NOT TO BE HONEST. But then again I am sure when his mom tells me that "nothing is wrong" he believes her. Kenny Williams, nor anyone else in the organization, believes half of the stuff that they say on this topic. This is what they have to say. Anyone who can't figure that out deserves the Darwin Award that is in their future.

[hogan873]

I don't think it takes KW to come out and say that there are tough decisions on the horizon, and coaches may lose their jobs, and players may be traded. We know that. A 16-24 record tells us that. So, I agree with Cowley's frustration and desire to hear KW say those things, but I see your point SS2K5. KW is not going to come out and say that he and Ozzie are at odds and he's extremely disappointed in how things are going. Part of his job is to keep the in-club stuff where it belongs...inside the club. If and when a coach is fired or a player is traded, we will be told.

Edited May 21, 2010 by hogan873

[thedoctor]

How stupid is Joe Cowley that he can't figure out that this is a part of Kenny Williams job? I don't ever recall a Joe Cowley article on the plight of the Chicago Sun Times and what their steady spiral down the toilet has done to the quality of his newspaper. Why? BECAUSE IT IS HIS JOB TO SELL NEWSPAPERS, NOT TO BE HONEST. But then again I am sure when his mom tells me that "nothing is wrong" he believes her. Kenny Williams, nor anyone else in the organization, believes half of the stuff that they say on this topic. This is what they have to say. Anyone who can't figure that out deserves the Darwin Award that is in their future.

 

i'm fairly certain he knows. it appears he's being intentionally obtuse and making a column out of it. he could also be pissy since kw isn't giving him good material.

[iamshack]

I think Joe makes some good points, but I think it's still too early for it to come to this yet. Williams has shown the resolve to make honest statements in the past, but he usually waits until it is necessary to do so. While the team is floundering, and falling deeper into the abyss, all is not lost yet. I think Kenny will wait another month or so before these types of statements start being made.

[Balta1701]

I think Kenny will wait another month or so before these types of statements start being made.

He can't. He has a June 13th deadline.

[iamshack]

He can't. He has a June 13th deadline.

Is that the silly 10/5 date for AJ or whatever?

[Balta1701]

Is that the silly 10/5 date for AJ or whatever?

Yup. After June 13th, AJ Pierzynski essentially has a full no trade clause, and so far, he's indicated he'd use it.

[iamshack]

Yup. After June 13th, AJ Pierzynski essentially has a full no trade clause, and so far, he's indicated he'd use it.

Well I don't think trading AJ or holding on to him for the remainder of the year necessitates much of anything for this team. If need be, they can deal him for a B level prospect or two and give Flowers some PT. If not, they're spending money that isn't really going to mean much in the grand scheme of things.

[Balta1701]

Well I don't think trading AJ or holding on to him for the remainder of the year necessitates much of anything for this team. If need be, they can deal him for a B level prospect or two and give Flowers some PT. If not, they're spending money that isn't really going to mean much in the grand scheme of things.

The way I look at it:

 

Trading AJ Pierzynski at the start of June creates as much salary savings as trading Konerko at the end of July, and probably more salary savings than you'd get by dumping Jenks. Trading AJ at the start of June pays something like 75% of Linebrink's contract next year.

[iamshack]

The way I look at it:

 

Trading AJ Pierzynski at the start of June creates as much salary savings as trading Konerko at the end of July, and probably more salary savings than you'd get by dumping Jenks. Trading AJ at the start of June pays something like 75% of Linebrink's contract next year.

Yeah, I mean every little bit counts, I suppose.

 

AJ is an extremely difficult player to trade, IMO. He's going to be one of those players that is missed much more so when he's gone than he has been appreciated while he was here, at least in the last few years, anyways (I know many people appreciate his contributions in 05'-06'). He also is going to scare a lot of potential suitors away with his behavior, even though I think the fact that he has gotten along well with his teammates (as opposed to his issues with Brett Tomko in SF) will help.

 

He's probably not going to net you in trade what he should be worth, especially with his poor start to this season, and so you have to look at the cost savings, as you said, and then more at the indirect results of what his departure would probably mean for the rest of the ballclub. His veteran leadership behind the plate and in the dugout will be missed. His durability will be greatly missed. His knowledge of the game will be missed. And his fire will be missed. But on the other side of that coin (as the Hawkeroo would say), trading him would send a message to the team and to the fanbase (albeit different messages, possibly), it would give Flowers a few months to start getting accustomed to our pitching staff (and for them to get accustomed to him), and it would give us an idea of what kind of backup we might need to bring in for next season.

 

So I guess the question becomes, does the cost savings justify those indirect results, or possibly buttress them even? Or does the cost savings not stack up to all those results, given that some of them could be seen as negative?

[scenario]

I don't think KW has ANY responsibility to lay out his thinking.

 

 

[Balta1701]

His veteran leadership behind the plate and in the dugout will be missed. His durability will be greatly missed. His knowledge of the game will be missed. And his fire will be missed. But on the other side of that coin (as the Hawkeroo would say), trading him would send a message to the team and to the fanbase (albeit different messages, possibly), it would give Flowers a few months to start getting accustomed to our pitching staff (and for them to get accustomed to him), and it would give us an idea of what kind of backup we might need to bring in for next season.

 

So I guess the question becomes, does the cost savings justify those indirect results, or possibly buttress them even? Or does the cost savings not stack up to all those results, given that some of them could be seen as negative?

There's one other thing you have to keep in mind...he's a free agent at the end of this season, unless we want to offer him another $6 million+ next year before the season starts. So when you say things like, his knowledge of the game will be missed and his fire will be missed...

 

You may well be right. But that was going to happen anyway.

[iamshack]

There's one other thing you have to keep in mind...he's a free agent at the end of this season, unless we want to offer him another $6 million+ next year before the season starts. So when you say things like, his knowledge of the game will be missed and his fire will be missed...

 

You may well be right. But that was going to happen anyway.

Yeah, absolutely. But I think the implications are a bit different if you trade him away early in this season versus making some small effort to bring him back next year, but ultimately let him walk away.

 

Regardless, he will be missed for his contributions, but if you truly believe Flowers is ready, than you've got to move on, especially considering the difference in salaries.

[Balta1701]

Regardless, he will be missed for his contributions, but if you truly believe Flowers is ready, than you've got to move on, especially considering the difference in salaries.

Frankly, I'm pretty sure he's not yet ready, but I'm not willing to spend another $4 million to keep him in the minors after June 1st.

[iamshack]

Frankly, I'm pretty sure he's not yet ready, but I'm not willing to spend another $4 million to keep him in the minors after June 1st.

Well, you may end up spending that money indirectly by bringing him up early then. Bringing him up this June, if he's indeed not ready, and starting his arbitration clock, might well cost you $4 million or more in the future. My guess is those that advocate trading AJ this year are not expecting huge things for us next season. So it isn't as though having Flowers on the roster for an entire year next season is going to have any far-reaching implications on our success next year.

 

By bringing up Flowers before he is ready, you are inefficiently managing his service time, which can be far more devastating financially than paying AJ to stick around this year...

[Balta1701]

Well, you may end up spending that money indirectly by bringing him up early then. Bringing him up this June, if he's indeed not ready, and starting his arbitration clock, might well cost you $4 million or more in the future. My guess is those that advocate trading AJ this year are not expecting huge things for us next season. So it isn't as though having Flowers on the roster for an entire year next season is going to have any far-reaching implications on our success next year.

 

By bringing up Flowers before he is ready, you are inefficiently managing his service time, which can be far more devastating financially than paying AJ to stick around this year...

There is essentially zero difference in service time between bringing Flowers up on June 2 and breaking camp with Flowers next year. Once you get to the start of June, you've saved yourself that arbitration year in all cases. (That's why cheap organizations like the Sox and Nationals wait until early June to bring up guys like Beckham and Strasbourg)

 

The only reason to keep Flowers down after June 1, for financial reasons, is if you don't think he'll be ready until June 1 of 2011. If you think he's that bad right now, then yeah, hold onto AJ and be prepared to spend money on another catcher next offseason.

[iamshack]

There is essentially zero difference in service time between bringing Flowers up on June 2 and breaking camp with Flowers next year. Once you get to the start of June, you've saved yourself that arbitration year in all cases. (That's why cheap organizations like the Sox and Nationals wait until early June to bring up guys like Beckham and Strasbourg)

 

The only reason to keep Flowers down after June 1, for financial reasons, is if you don't think he'll be ready until June 1 of 2011. If you think he's that bad right now, then yeah, hold onto AJ and be prepared to spend money on another catcher next offseason.

I guess I didn't write it clearly enough...but that's what I meant when I stated there would be no far-reaching implications for having him on the roster the entire year next year.

 

What I am advocating is that if you don't think he is ready this year, you wait until June of next year to bring him up....

[Balta1701]

What I am advocating is that if you don't think he is ready this year, you wait until June of next year to bring him up....

I guess I rejected that idea because of the next step of thought...how much does it cost to get you to June of next year to bring him up?

 

Now, we're not just talking about the $4 million that we're spending on AJ...we're talking about having Donny Lucy as our only catcher next year until we're ready to bring Flowers up. In other words, we're probably out on the market trying to find at least 1 catcher, probably 2, just to give us a reasonable start to the year. Miguel Olivo's contract with the Rockies was a $2.5 million deal last offseason, Jason Kendall's deal was 2 years/$4 million, so the going rate for a veteran catcher of AJ's caliber is at least going to be around $3 million. So now we're talking a cost of $7 million+ to keep Flowers in AAA until next June.

 

By my Math, I figured we might be having on the order of $10-$15 million to spend on FA's next offseason to fill holes, assuming no savings from dealing anyone this year. Keeping Flowers in AAA looks to me like the difference between having $15 million to play with and perhaps around $8 million to play with. Or $17 million and $10 million. Whatever.

[iamshack]

I guess I rejected that idea because of the next step of thought...how much does it cost to get you to June of next year to bring him up?

 

Now, we're not just talking about the $4 million that we're spending on AJ...we're talking about having Donny Lucy as our only catcher next year until we're ready to bring Flowers up. In other words, we're probably out on the market trying to find at least 1 catcher, probably 2, just to give us a reasonable start to the year. Miguel Olivo's contract with the Rockies was a $2.5 million deal last offseason, Jason Kendall's deal was 2 years/$4 million, so the going rate for a veteran catcher of AJ's caliber is at least going to be around $3 million. So now we're talking a cost of $7 million+ to keep Flowers in AAA until next June.

 

By my Math, I figured we might be having on the order of $10-$15 million to spend on FA's next offseason to fill holes, assuming no savings from dealing anyone this year. Keeping Flowers in AAA looks to me like the difference between having $15 million to play with and perhaps around $8 million to play with. Or $17 million and $10 million. Whatever.

If we're going to suck anyways, why not just let Lucy and Castro split duties? What do we lose out on?

[elrockinMT]

How stupid is Joe Cowley that he can't figure out that this is a part of Kenny Williams job? I don't ever recall a Joe Cowley article on the plight of the Chicago Sun Times and what their steady spiral down the toilet has done to the quality of his newspaper. Why? BECAUSE IT IS HIS JOB TO SELL NEWSPAPERS, NOT TO BE HONEST. But then again I am sure when his mom tells me that "nothing is wrong" he believes her. Kenny Williams, nor anyone else in the organization, believes half of the stuff that they say on this topic. This is what they have to say. Anyone who can't figure that out deserves the Darwin Award that is in their future.

 

 

Joe Cowley is not the problem with this team

[ptatc]

I don't think we are going to alot of player movement from KW. He likes his young players and will keep them. The only trading you will see is:

 

AJ and PK because they will be free agents and he was going to let them go anyway.

 

Jones if he is playing well enough to get the Sox anything.

 

Jenks because KW really likes Santos.

 

Garcia if he continues to do well.

 

Pena, Linebrink, Vizquel should be gone but no one will want them.

 

He won't trade Danks,

 

Floyd isn't doing well enough with the contract to trade

 

Peavy is being paid far too much with his current performance

 

I really can't see him wanting to trade anyone else so there maybe 3-4 trades at the most.

[southsider2k5]

Joe Cowley is not the problem with this team

 

I never said he was. And that has nothing to do with Cowley being a hack.

[elrockinMT]

I never said he was. And that has nothing to do with Cowley being a hack.

 

I know it's hard to see the truth when it comes from folks like Joe who don't paint rosy red pictures of our demise. I liked that prose

[elrockinMT]

How stupid is Joe Cowley that he can't figure out that this is a part of Kenny Williams job? I don't ever recall a Joe Cowley article on the plight of the Chicago Sun Times and what their steady spiral down the toilet has done to the quality of his newspaper. Why? BECAUSE IT IS HIS JOB TO SELL NEWSPAPERS, NOT TO BE HONEST. But then again I am sure when his mom tells me that "nothing is wrong" he believes her. Kenny Williams, nor anyone else in the organization, believes half of the stuff that they say on this topic. This is what they have to say. Anyone who can't figure that out deserves the Darwin Award that is in their future.

 

 

Anyway we need to stay positive