Phillies scouting Jenks and Putz

[hawksox13]

uh...12 homers and 26 RBIs in 34 games. They were 24-10 in games he played in. Yeah, he was actually huge when he played.

 

[fathom]

Hermanson did contribute. He gave up the game-tying double in the 8th inning of WS Game 3. If he didn't do that, then Blum would have never hit his GW 14th inning homer, Widger would never get an RBI with the bases-loaded walk, & Marte wouldn't have gotten the win in that game. Hermanson blew a lead, just to allow 3 other players to contribute in that game, who otherwise really did nothing in the playoffs.

 

Marte was one routine grounder away from being an absolute hero in that game.

[fathom]

Frank's walkoff bomb was against the Twins the year before I believe, and that was the day after we acquired Alomar and Everett...and the day before the Koch/Crawford implosion. Frank didn't have any walkoffs I can remember in 2005, but he did have a huge 3 run homer against Tampa Bay around the ASB in the 8th inning.

[chw42]

Frank's walkoff bomb was against the Twins the year before I believe, and that was the day after we acquired Alomar and Everett...and the day before the Koch/Crawford implosion. Frank didn't have any walkoffs I can remember in 2005, but he did have a huge 3 run homer against Tampa Bay around the ASB in the 8th inning.

 

I don't think any of us can forget the Koch/Crawford implosion. I think that was when I realized that Carl Crawford was actually good...

[LittleHurt05]

Frank's walkoff bomb was against the Twins the year before I believe, and that was the day after we acquired Alomar and Everett...and the day before the Koch/Crawford implosion. Frank didn't have any walkoffs I can remember in 2005, but he did have a huge 3 run homer against Tampa Bay around the ASB in the 8th inning.

 

Yeah, July 5 down 4-3 in the 8th, he hit a 3-run bomb vs. the Rays.

 

Also, one week earlier he hit a solo shot in the 13th inning off Rodney to win in Detroit

[fathom]

Yeah, July 5 down 4-3 in the 8th, he hit a 3-run bomb vs. the Rays.

 

Also, one week earlier he hit a solo shot in the 13th inning off Rodney to win in Detroit

 

Haha, I remember that as well. I'm pretty sure a lot of us were complaining that Frank was trying to hit home runs every time up. I'm also pretty sure that was the game where we all realized Pods couldn't play CF.

[greg775]

s for the Jenkins/Banks/Williams love....come on dude, they're Hall of Famers; they deserve to be cherished by Cubs fans. I'm pretty sure everyone will agree that no one from the 2005 Sox team really has a chance to be a Hall of Famer.

 

What about Kessenger, Beckert, and some of those s***ty starting pitchers?

Cub fans worship a team of chokers. Beckert and Kessinger are still beloved.

Some Sox fans "on here" simply devalue their own and constantly dog on players on that 05 team when if that happened in another city that has never won anything significant it simply would not be the case.

People "cherish" what Crede and Pods contributed in hitting the key home runs in that series? Yeah right.

Pods was a s***ty baserunner and Crede is scum around here "by many." Not all.

Dye? He might as be a four-letter world "to many" Sox fans on here.

Edited May 25, 2010 by greg775

[Kyyle23]

What about Kessenger, Beckert, and some of those s***ty starting pitchers?

Cub fans worship a team of chokers. Beckert and Kessinger are still beloved.

Some Sox fans "on here" simply devalue their own and constantly dog on players on that 05 team when if that happened in another city that has never won anything significant it simply would not be the case.

People "cherish" what Crede and Pods contributed in hitting the key home runs in that series? Yeah right.

Pods was a s***ty baserunner and Crede is scum around here "by many." Not all.

Dye? He might as be a four-letter world "to many" Sox fans on here.

 

Greg, enough. Every one of us appreciates that 2005 team. What you refuse to acknowledge is that these players have devalued since 2005. Crede, Dye, arent in the league anymore, and for good reason. Pods was and always will be a fast guy with horrible instincts on the basepaths. Its not made up by Sox fans, its not devaluing these players, its the truth.

 

Find me instances where people on this site are constantly dogging the 2005 team for their performances that year, and I will accept that i am wrong. The problem here is, you are seeing us dogging Dye for his absolutely horrid year last year and abysmal defense, and considering that to be blasphemy and dogging him for his 2005 year. Its not the same. Pods had a great comeback year last year, but it didnt work out, he wanted more than KW was willing to give, and when he finally lowered his demands, KW already made a move because he couldnt wait. its the business of baseball, it happens.

[fathom]

Jermaine Dye is one of the most respected offensive players in Sox history on this board. A lot of us were even willing to overlook his tank job during the 2nd half last season, as well as his poor attitude, and welcome him back this season. Dye, IMO, is the most significant free agent signee in Sox history.

[WCSox]

My point AGAIN was Sox fans, at least on here, undervalue their own. Somebody respond to my point made in the long summary above from Game One of the WS. Which players on there do you consider great former Sox? There's no love from some of you for guys who gave you a WS ... and in contrast, f***ing Cub fans worship those chokers from '69 who finished about 10 games out after blowing the big lead to the Mets. Jenkins, Banks, Williams, Santo, Kessinger ... oh they are immortal by Flub fans.

 

From some Sox fans on here, all ll I read is b****ing about Rowand, Dye, Garland, Crede, Pods, Uribe, et. all. They were very good players. Deal with it.

If Pods hit a walkoff WS homer for the Cubs, he'd be worshiped in this city forever.

He's mocked on here for getting picked off a few times last year. My god.

 

You're painting with an awfully broad brush here. What a couple Sox fans on a message board think of Aaron Rowand is not exactly indicative of what all or the average Sox fan believes.

 

Regarding your point about Pods, some people here rip him because he's a below-average baseballl player. Everybody is acutely aware of what he did for us in '05, and I imagine that the vast majority of people here are thankful for that. So I disagree that Pods, Rowand, Everett, etc. were "very good players." They were slightly-above-average-to-mediocre players who happened to play on a team that had lights-out pitching in 2005. And I have no idea why you're comparing Pods to HOF talent like Fergie Jenkins, Ernie Banks, and Ron Santo.

 

[WCSox]

Jermaine Dye is one of the most respected offensive players in Sox history on this board. A lot of us were even willing to overlook his tank job during the 2nd half last season, as well as his poor attitude, and welcome him back this season. Dye, IMO, is the most significant free agent signee in Sox history.

 

Yep, I was a big JD supporter before he began running his mouth this winter.

 

[greg775]

Greg, enough

 

My comments are in response to specific statements made by others in response to my comments.

It's not like I'm just bringing up stuff to inflame.

People then get all sidetracked and bring up stuff I never said. I'm responding to the fact "some" -- I never said all -- Sox fans devalue their own. I'll resist going over my entire argument one more time.

[dyuen]

He has to do some spectacular things at some point in his career. Individually he hasn't had any amazing stand out seasons. He's never won 20 games. He's never placed higher than 5th in a Cy Young voting. He's never had an era of less than 3.12. It could still happen, but at this point, I would have to say he isn't even close to a HOF guy.

 

agreed, he certainly is a very long shot at ths point but i wouldnt say he has no chance.

regardless i think he will be revered by sox fans in the same light as those aforementioned cubs

[WCSox]

agreed, he certainly is a very long shot at ths point but i wouldnt say he has no chance.

regardless i think he will be revered by sox fans in the same light as those aforementioned cubs

 

Mark is a lot like David Cone and Andy Pettitte: Excellent career, dominant at times, and a major factor in his team winning a championship. Unfortunately, you really need to dominate at a certain point of your career to get into Cooperstown, and Mark hasn't done that. He's thrown some phenomenal individual games, but not for for long enough to be considered a serious Cy Young candidate. All three of those guys will get into their respective team's Hall Of Fame, and deservedly so. But they were simply not the best of the best of their generation.

 

The only way that Mark has a shot is if he pitches into his 40s and amasses 300 wins. But given that he's already publicly mulled early retirement and that he's more erratic and doesn't throw quite as hard as he did five years ago, I don't see more than 250 wins by age 40.

Edited May 25, 2010 by WCSox

[hogan873]

Mark is a lot like David Cone and Andy Pettitte: Excellent career, dominant at times, and a major factor in his team winning a championship. Unfortunately, you really need to dominate at a certain point of your career to get into Cooperstown, and Mark hasn't done that. He's thrown some phenomenal individual games, but not for for long enough to be considered a serious Cy Young candidate. All three of those guys will get into their respective team's Hall Of Fame, and deservedly so. But they were simply not the best of the best of their generation.

 

The only way that Mark has a shot is if he pitches into his 40s and amasses 300 wins. But given that he's already publicly mulled early retirement and that he's more erratic and doesn't throw quite as hard as he did five years ago, I don't see more than 250 wins by age 40.

Good points. You're absolutely right that he will be part of the Sox HOF, but getting to Cooperstown is a different story. A good example of individual accomplishments not carrying as much weight is looking at how many picthers have thrown a no hitter AND a perfect game in their career. Not many, but that's not going to get you a spot in the HOF on its own.

[southsider2k5]

Mark is a lot like David Cone and Andy Pettitte: Excellent career, dominant at times, and a major factor in his team winning a championship. Unfortunately, you really need to dominate at a certain point of your career to get into Cooperstown, and Mark hasn't done that. He's thrown some phenomenal individual games, but not for for long enough to be considered a serious Cy Young candidate. All three of those guys will get into their respective team's Hall Of Fame, and deservedly so. But they were simply not the best of the best of their generation.

 

The only way that Mark has a shot is if he pitches into his 40s and amasses 300 wins. But given that he's already publicly mulled early retirement and that he's more erratic and doesn't throw quite as hard as he did five years ago, I don't see more than 250 wins by age 40.

 

I will be surprised if he sticks around long enough to get to 200.

[Chisoxfn]

I wouldn't necessarily call Mark dominant, but the guy has a Perfect game and a no hitter. On top of that he has been one of the most consistent and reliable pitchers in baseball and at times been one of baseballs best. In fact, when you look at his stats over long periods, the guy has been one of the best in his reign.

 

He'll need to play for a while and stay above average, but he has a shot to make the HOF.

[caulfield12]

Mike Mussina will/should get into the Hall of Fame, he's another pitcher that comes to mind in the "very good" but not "great" for most of his career category. And Pettitte, because of his time spent with the Yankees, will get stronger consider for the HOF than Mark Buehrle, 100%.

 

I know many will argue that point, though (about Mussina), especially those who saw him pitch in the first half of his career with some so-so Baltimore teams.

 

When I think back about great pitching though, I think of Dwight Gooden in his rookie year or Saberhagen every other year in the 80's. Maybe Verlander and Greinke, the way they pitched last season.

 

I think Buehrle, at most, ends up around 225. But IMO 175-200 is just as likely.

[The Ginger Kid]

best 39th round pick ever

[Balta1701]

best 39th round pick ever

Who? You can't be talking about Buehrle, he went in the 38th.

[WCSox]

I wouldn't necessarily call Mark dominant, but the guy has a Perfect game and a no hitter. On top of that he has been one of the most consistent and reliable pitchers in baseball and at times been one of baseballs best. In fact, when you look at his stats over long periods, the guy has been one of the best in his reign.

 

He'll need to play for a while and stay above average, but he has a shot to make the HOF.

 

That doesn't get a pitcher into Cooperstown. Dominance does. Guys like Maddux, Randy Johnson, Pedro, Glavine, Smoltz, etc. are the likely next inductees. Mark didn't dominate like those guys. Even some of his younger contemporaries (Santana, Sabathia) are a tier above him.

Edited May 25, 2010 by WCSox

[Quin]

Buehlre will be angered by our comments and proceed to throw a perfect game tomorrow, just to show he can.

 

But seriously, lets say Buehrle gets 1 more All-Star game, 1 more ring, and lets say he throws another no-no...would that get him in if he had around 200 wins?

[Balta1701]

But seriously, lets say Buehrle gets 1 more All-Star game, 1 more ring, and lets say he throws another no-no...would that get him in if he had around 200 wins?

Frankly, I don't think it should. Mike Mussina would have 70 more wins, 5 all star appearances (Same as Buehrle), 7 gold gloves, 6 finishes in the top 5 in the Cy Young voting (Buehrle's been there once) and a 20 win season, and I don't think that should get him in.

[greg775]

You won't be seeing many pitchers make the Hall of Fame in this current era.

They won't be winning enough games and lasting enough years to win 300.

Rivera will make it because of the NY media. Name any other "locks" for the Hall of Fame who pitch?

 

Some of these pitchers who have fallen just short (Blyleven?) will look like superstars compared to this era's pitchers who won't be durable enough to win 300 or sniff 300.

 

Edited May 25, 2010 by greg775

[Jordan4life_2007]

You won't be seeing many pitchers make the Hall of Fame in this current era.

They won't be winning enough games and lasting enough years to win 300.

Rivera will make it because of the NY media. Name any other "locks" for the Hall of Fame who pitch?

 

Rivera will make it because he's by far and away the greatest relief pitcher to ever live.