AND THAT'S A WHITE SOX WINNER!!!

[NorthSideSox72]

Mark G from the Trib had a much more accurate description of the balk/ejection stuff it seems.

 

[Quin]

@ Wiki

 

Joseph Henry West (born October 31, 1952) is an American puss-filled umpire in Major League Baseball and the president of the World Umpires Association[1]

 

Seriously though, I can never stand Joe West behind the plate, since he called the triple play against the Cubs a few years ago an interference.

 

To sum it up; Mariotti just defended Ozzie on ATH.

 

Paulie, AJ, and Coop all appealed it even, and those guys rarely argue with umps.

 

And the smug look West had on his face...Hawk's right, he deserves a suspension.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Quinarvy

[chw42]

@ Wiki

 

 

 

Seriously though, I can never stand Joe West behind the plate, since he called the triple play against the Cubs a few years ago an interference.

 

To sum it up; Mariotti just defended Ozzie on ATH.

 

Paulie, AJ, and Coop all appealed it even, and those guys rarely argue with umps.

 

And the smug look West had on his face...Hawk's right, he deserves a suspension.

 

 

[chw42]

Anybody else notice A.J. shoving Mark away with one arm? Thought it was kind of funny.

[RockRaines]

Problem is he's gone from mediocre or average (2009) to replacement level this year. This year hasn't come out of nowhere.

This year is over then huh? His numbers arent very good, but he doesnt have a downward trend since his worst year ERA and WHIP wise was 2006 and 2007 and 2008 were stellar. 2009 was decent for a closer, but not what you'd call dominant. There is no trend in there that I can see other than the trend of soxtalkers screaming for someones head 2 months into the season.

[Balta1701]

There is no trend in there that I can see other than the trend of soxtalkers screaming for someones head 2 months into the season.

Even still, he shouldn't be just given the 9th inning any more.

[Kalapse]

It's such bulls*** that you can't use your closer in non-save situations (ie: tied in the top of the 9th inning), he's typically going to be either the most or the second most important member of your bullpen and sometimes you need a big out in a tied game or you need him to keep you within a run going into your final AB. If he can't get up for a close late situation that doesn't technically qualify as a save opportunity then there's something wrong with him. Just looking over the splits of closers around baseball for the past few years other teams don't really have to deal with their closer absolutely imploding in high pressue, late game, non-save situations somehow they're able to keep their team in the game even if they're not going to get that 'S' next to their name in the boxscore.

 

A 3-3 game in the top of the 9th inning against Toronto is a f***ing huge situation and typically where you see a team's closer enter the game, allowing a HR to John Buck in this scenario is unacceptable, you can't just be expected to get outs when your team is up 1-3 runs in the final half inning of play, you need to get those big outs when your manager calls upon you regardless of whether or not a save is on the line. Our offense is struggling to score runs as is, if you're called upon to retire three men without a run crossing the board down 1 in the top of the 9th to the Indians you man the f*** up and keep your team within a solo shot of a tie, unfortunately a single, walk, walk and groundout later you're down two going into your final AB and it feels as though all hope is lost.

 

3 times this year the game moved to the top of the 9th at home and the closer was called upon to either protect a 1 run lead or keep the score even (2 tied) for the final AB and all 3 times he failed to do so. Luckily we came back to win 1 of them after Jenks allowed 2 runs to the Mariners in the top of the 9th inning of a tied ballgame thanks to the heroics of Paul Konerko and Alex Rios.

 

A closer can not be judged solely on his success rate in save situations, no, that's not the only time he's called upon to get big outs. If you want to be the most important arm in that pen then you need to keep your team in games regardless of whether or not a save is on the line.

[Steve9347]

Bobby jenks

[Jordan4life_2007]

This year is over then huh? His numbers arent very good, but he doesnt have a downward trend since his worst year ERA and WHIP wise was 2006 and 2007 and 2008 were stellar. 2009 was decent for a closer, but not what you'd call dominant. There is no trend in there that I can see other than the trend of soxtalkers screaming for someones head 2 months into the season.

 

Understatement of the year? Bobby's '09 was by no measure "decent." That is unless you want to compare him to the likes of Kevin Gregg. 3.71 ERA, 1.28 whip for a closer is not good. That's not even getting into the 1.52 HR/9. Other than save percentage, which is becoming a pretty overrated stat to evaluate closers, there isn't anything in Bobby's standard or advanced statistics that points to any kinda turn around.

 

Edit: the K-rate is good. I didn't even realize he had 21 in 17 IP so far. That's not hard to miss when you're WHIP is over 2, I guess.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Jordan4life

[chw42]

Understatement of the year? Bobby's '09 was by no measure "decent." That is unless you want to compare him to the likes of Kevin Gregg. 3.71 ERA, 1.28 whip for a closer is not good. That's not even getting into the 1.52 HR/9. Other than save percentage, which is becoming a pretty overrated stat to evaluate closers, there isn't anything in Bobby's standard or advanced statistics that points to any kinda turn around.

Bobby did have a 3.63 xFIP. But I guess that hasn't been the case so far this season.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Bobby did have a 3.63 xFIP. But I guess that hasn't been the case so far this season.

 

That's still nothing to get loud about from your closer.

[ptatc]

Hahahaha, rotoworld with the first use of it...

 

 

That's like working in a restaurant and sending out a dish an hour after it was ordered burnt to a crisp. But atleast it got the job done!

 

Except in both cases you pay for results. The dish was burnt and the job wasn't done. Bobby is paid to preserve wins. He did that. Thornton stats look better than Bobby's but he has cost the Sox more games by giving up leads. It wasn't pretty but he still did what he was supposed to do.

[Jordan4life_2007]

I'm really starting to despise save%. No matter how bad Bobby pitches, and he's been as bad as any reliever in baseball, it always comes back to "well, we won the game, right?"

[Balta1701]

he's been as bad as any reliever in baseball

Really, he's been awful, but I can give a list of names who've been worse.

 

Randy Williams...you could argue he's been the worst regular reliever in baseball and I'd believe that.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Really, he's been awful, but I can give a list of names who've been worse.

 

Randy Williams...you could argue he's been the worst regular reliever in baseball and I'd believe that.

 

Good lord, Balta. Fine. He's been one of the worst? Better?

[Balta1701]

Good lord, Balta. Fine. He's been one of the worst? Better?

Correct.

 

If you want to talk about the worst reliever in baseball, you've got to talk about Randy Williams. And I'm going to defend that to the last!

[Heads22]

Correct.

 

If you want to talk about the worst reliever in baseball, you've got to talk about Randy Williams. And I'm going to defend that to the last!

 

Hard to wish an injury on a guy, but maybe the "hurt foot" can result in a callup from AAA for Torres, as he makes as much sense as anyone.

[Kalapse]

Except in both cases you pay for results. The dish was burnt and the job wasn't done. Bobby is paid to preserve wins. He did that. Thornton stats look better than Bobby's but he has cost the Sox more games by giving up leads. It wasn't pretty but he still did what he was supposed to do.

Thornton's entered in 12 high leverage situations this year and gave the opponent the lead 3 times. Jenks has entered 9 high leverage situations this year and gave the opponent the lead 3 times. When Jenks enters a game he typically has a much higher margin for error than Thornton whether it be a 3 run lead or the fact that he's starting the inning and doesn't have to deal with inherited runners.

 

You can't just go based off how many games a reliever has "blown" because the 2 roles are not created equal. Matt Thornton actually leads our relievers in WPA meaning over the course of the season he has added to our win probability more than any other reliever, almost always your leader will be your closer just because there's so much more WPA+ to be gained by finishing the game than getting a few outs in the 7th and the high volume of high leverage situations a top of the line set-up man is required to pitch. Oddly enough though Thornton is at 0.77 (12th in the AL) and Jenks is at -0.47. Thornton actually finished 5th amongst all AL relievers (closers included) last year which just speaks to his incredible success rate in high leverage situations.

[greg775]

I don't understand why we can't use the argument of percentage of saves closed successfully when discussing a closer.

I mean he had so many runs to work with and used 'em all but one and we win.

What's so bad about that?

The meltdown had we lost today would have been amazing cause this is a bad enough meltdown and we won.

 

I'm not saying Jenks is a god, but today I'd think the focus would more be on Teahen finally contributing, isn't it two days in a row now and Kotsay again doing well.

If those 2 guys do anything remotely positive it helps this team greatly even though I think this team's maximum success rate this season would be to be a .500 team. We ain't anymore than that.

[Balta1701]

even though I think this team's maximum success rate this season would be to be a .500 team. We ain't anymore than that.

Of course...a dominant closer solidifying the back end of that bullpen would probably be worth 3-4 wins to this team.

[Kalapse]

I don't understand why we can't use the argument of percentage of saves closed successfully when discussing a closer.

I mean he had so many runs to work with and used 'em all but one and we win.

What's so bad about that?

The meltdown had we lost today would have been amazing cause this is a bad enough meltdown and we won.

 

I'm not saying Jenks is a god, but today I'd think the focus would more be on Teahen finally contributing, isn't it two days in a row now and Kotsay again doing well.

If those 2 guys do anything remotely positive it helps this team greatly even though I think this team's maximum success rate this season would be to be a .500 team. We ain't anymore than that.

Why do you think Ozzie has been toying with the notion of moving him out of 9th inning duties?

 

When that volcano starts rumbling and spewing smoke do you maybe think about making your move or do you wait until it incinerates your home?

[The Ginger Kid]

I used to like Joe West. Until today.

[greg775]

Why do you think Ozzie has been toying with the notion of moving him out of 9th inning duties?

 

When that volcano starts rumbling and spewing smoke do you maybe think about making your move or do you wait until it incinerates your home?

 

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Thornton close some games. I wouldn't be mad if the 2 flip flopped roles.

I'm not dead set wanting Bobby to close. I just don't understand the concern on days we win and he gets the final out even if he gives up runs before that final out.

[ptatc]

Thornton's entered in 12 high leverage situations this year and gave the opponent the lead 3 times. Jenks has entered 9 high leverage situations this year and gave the opponent the lead 3 times. When Jenks enters a game he typically has a much higher margin for error than Thornton whether it be a 3 run lead or the fact that he's starting the inning and doesn't have to deal with inherited runners.

 

You can't just go based off how many games a reliever has "blown" because the 2 roles are not created equal. Matt Thornton actually leads our relievers in WPA meaning over the course of the season he has added to our win probability more than any other reliever, almost always your leader will be your closer just because there's so much more WPA+ to be gained by finishing the game than getting a few outs in the 7th and the high volume of high leverage situations a top of the line set-up man is required to pitch. Oddly enough though Thornton is at 0.77 (12th in the AL) and Jenks is at -0.47. Thornton actually finished 5th amongst all AL relievers (closers included) last year which just speaks to his incredible success rate in high leverage situations.

 

I disagree. When it really comes down to it the only thing that matters is winning. Granted if Bobby keeps up his performances the odds are that he will lose more games.

 

I couldn't care less about the stats he puts up as long as they win. I know if had this discussion about starting pitchers as well but all I care about is the win.

 

It's like managing people. Do you give your group a goal and then micromanage them and check on the progress hourly or do you let them do what they need to do to accomplish the goal. I for one don't care how they do it as long as the job gets done. Again, if he starts losing the games the situation changes.

 

[The Ginger Kid]

go yankees, take both of these.