AND THAT'S A WHITE SOX WINNER!!!

[WCSox]

I disagree. When it really comes down to it the only thing that matters is winning. Granted if Bobby keeps up his performances the odds are that he will lose more games.

 

I couldn't care less about the stats he puts up as long as they win. I know if had this discussion about starting pitchers as well but all I care about is the win.

 

It's like managing people. Do you give your group a goal and then micromanage them and check on the progress hourly or do you let them do what they need to do to accomplish the goal. I for one don't care how they do it as long as the job gets done. Again, if he starts losing the games the situation changes.

 

When that volcano starts rumbling and spewing smoke do you maybe think about making your move or do you wait until it incinerates your home?

 

[qwerty]

I personally wouldn't mind seeing Thornton close some games. I wouldn't be mad if the 2 flip flopped roles.

I'm not dead set wanting Bobby to close. I just don't understand the concern on days we win and he gets the final out even if he gives up runs before that final out.

 

You can take positives and negatives away from pretty much every game ever played. It's unfair to reserve judgment only for losses. That is a terrible mindset. Being level headed is the way to go, a happy medium if you will.

 

But no, you rather go all out after a loss, ranting and raving, hating on whoever is your whipping boy(s) is at the time... while rarely giving credit to anyone who deserves it. If you do give credit in a loss it's to about one player. I would be in agreement that not many deserve credit this season. But it's not about just this season. This has been going on since the beginning of time.

 

You have certain players that you rag on consistently and do everything in your power to stay consistent with your views. No matter how irrational it may be. Nothing changes your mind. Ever. But whenever someone even remotely criticizes a favorite of yours you throw a s*** fit? How i see it you are stuck in your ways i'm afraid.

 

Jenks has been nothing short of brutal, despite the saves, everything indicates such. Jenks has purely gotten lucky to get a save in 7 of 8. He has only thrown 56% of first pitches for strikes, down 7% from his career totals. He is also down 3% in overall strike percentage. To put it simple every single one of following stats (which i realize is foreign to you) is either up or down from his career percentages... O-Swing% - Z-Swing% - Swing% - O-Contact% -Z-Contact% -Contact% Zone% - F-Strike% - SwStr%. Everyone of those stats are also up from his 2009 season other than a measly 0.2% @ O-Swing%. A grand total of 0 pitches that he throws has gone for a positive value this season. Jenks has gotten smoked, as 26% of his pitches have been hit for line drives, while 19% is roughly league average.

 

Something has to be done, as this has been occurring now since the second half of last season. Bobby jenks did not start pitching terrible overnight. A move has to be made, no questions asked. Whether a move is made for the short term or long term i don't care. He might figure things out in another role, then again he might not. All that i know is he is no longer deserving of his role which is so vital to this teams success.

[Dick Allen]

I disagree. When it really comes down to it the only thing that matters is winning. Granted if Bobby keeps up his performances the odds are that he will lose more games.

 

I couldn't care less about the stats he puts up as long as they win. I know if had this discussion about starting pitchers as well but all I care about is the win.

 

It's like managing people. Do you give your group a goal and then micromanage them and check on the progress hourly or do you let them do what they need to do to accomplish the goal. I for one don't care how they do it as long as the job gets done. Again, if he starts losing the games the situation changes.

Shingo Takatsu was 8 for 9 in save opps. with lower ERA than Jenks when he was replaced and eventually released. Its not micro managing. You consider yourself lucky he hasn't cost you more games and replace him in this critical role. Its a pre-emptive move. Why wait for the coming disaster if you have a chance to avoid it? Its not like you are firing him. He gets a different role and instead of just being annointed closer based on what he did 2 or 3 years ago he has to earn it again. The White Sox are getting to the point they cannot lose games they are supposed to win.

 

You can't just say the White Sox won today, so everyone did fine. Tomorrow is a different day. Jenks has had too many days when he's been absolutely terrible to be considered a top closer right now. The White Sox have tons of options in their bullpen. Its time to make a change. Bobby will have a new role. If he shows he's up for a return to the closer's role eventually great, but right now, he has to give up the 9th.

 

I do agree a win is a win. I don't think Jenks' implosion will have any carry over, just like I thought Jose Paniagua's appearance in 2003 in a White Sox win, wasn't the thing that cost the White Sox a playoff spot like some believe.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Dick Allen

[ptatc]

Shingo Takatsu was 8 for 9 in save opps. with lower ERA than Jenks when he was replaced and eventually released. Its not micro managing. You consider yourself lucky he hasn't cost you more games and replace him in this critical role. Its a pre-emptive move. Why wait for the coming disaster if you have a chance to avoid it? Its not like you are firing him. He gets a different role and instead of just being annointed closer based on what he did 2 or 3 years ago he has to earn it again. The White Sox are getting to the point they cannot lose games they are supposed to win.

 

You can't just say the White Sox won today, so everyone did fine. Tomorrow is a different day. Jenks has had too many days when he's been absolutely terrible to be considered a top closer right now. The White Sox have tons of options in their bullpen. Its time to make a change. Bobby will have a new role. If he shows he's up for a return to the closer's role eventually great, but right now, he has to give up the 9th.

 

I do agree a win is a win. I don't think Jenks' implosion will have any carry over, just like I thought Jose Paniagua's appearance in 2003 in a White Sox win, wasn't the thing that cost the White Sox a playoff spot like some believe.

 

I don't disagree with the concept however Shingo didn't have a track record multiple good years in the majors. Bobby does. I know he hasn't pitched very well. However, I don't think he has lost his stuff and until he repeatedly loses games I'm going to give him the chance to correct himself. I'm not going to take him out of the closers role until he loses games not just gives up runs.

[Brian]

FRISBEE!!!!

[justBLAZE]

go yankees, take both of these.

 

Swisher homered of Rauch in top of the 9th, Mo River in to get his second save in one day.

[joejoedairy]

great job by pena to eat up 4 innings

 

 

another nice day for kotsay

 

id like to see teahan put a couple good games in a row together, starting with today

 

 

 

[Milkman delivers]

You can take positives and negatives away from pretty much every game ever played. It's unfair to reserve judgment only for losses. That is a terrible mindset. Being level headed is the way to go, a happy medium if you will.

 

But no, you rather go all out after a loss, ranting and raving, hating on whoever is your whipping boy(s) is at the time... while rarely giving credit to anyone who deserves it. If you do give credit in a loss it's to about one player. I would be in agreement that not many deserve credit this season. But it's not about just this season. This has been going on since the beginning of time.

 

You have certain players that you rag on consistently and do everything in your power to stay consistent with your views. No matter how irrational it may be. Nothing changes your mind. Ever. But whenever someone even remotely criticizes a favorite of yours you throw a s*** fit? How i see it you are stuck in your ways i'm afraid.

 

Jenks has been nothing short of brutal, despite the saves, everything indicates such. Jenks has purely gotten lucky to get a save in 7 of 8. He has only thrown 56% of first pitches for strikes, down 7% from his career totals. He is also down 3% in overall strike percentage. To put it simple every single one of following stats (which i realize is foreign to you) is either up or down from his career percentages... O-Swing% - Z-Swing% - Swing% - O-Contact% -Z-Contact% -Contact% Zone% - F-Strike% - SwStr%. Everyone of those stats are also up from his 2009 season other than a measly 0.2% @ O-Swing%. A grand total of 0 pitches that he throws has gone for a positive value this season. Jenks has gotten smoked, as 26% of his pitches have been hit for line drives, while 19% is roughly league average.

 

Something has to be done, as this has been occurring now since the second half of last season. Bobby jenks did not start pitching terrible overnight. A move has to be made, no questions asked. Whether a move is made for the short term or long term i don't care. He might figure things out in another role, then again he might not. All that i know is he is no longer deserving of his role which is so vital to this teams success.

 

I could kiss you right now.

 

As soon as the last player from 2005 is traded/released/allowed to sign elsewhere, a smile will cross my face because greg will no longer be able to preach to anyone who dares question any aspect of their game.

 

Then again, we'll have to see every other post of his comparing our current players to the great former players.

[Heads22]

The BBTN breakdown of the balks was f***ing awful.

[WilliamTell]

Only 6 games back. Hard to believe. Let's get rolling!

[Jordan4life_2007]

You can take positives and negatives away from pretty much every game ever played. It's unfair to reserve judgment only for losses. That is a terrible mindset. Being level headed is the way to go, a happy medium if you will.

 

But no, you rather go all out after a loss, ranting and raving, hating on whoever is your whipping boy(s) is at the time... while rarely giving credit to anyone who deserves it. If you do give credit in a loss it's to about one player. I would be in agreement that not many deserve credit this season. But it's not about just this season. This has been going on since the beginning of time.

 

You have certain players that you rag on consistently and do everything in your power to stay consistent with your views. No matter how irrational it may be. Nothing changes your mind. Ever. But whenever someone even remotely criticizes a favorite of yours you throw a s*** fit? How i see it you are stuck in your ways i'm afraid.

 

Jenks has been nothing short of brutal, despite the saves, everything indicates such. Jenks has purely gotten lucky to get a save in 7 of 8. He has only thrown 56% of first pitches for strikes, down 7% from his career totals. He is also down 3% in overall strike percentage. To put it simple every single one of following stats (which i realize is foreign to you) is either up or down from his career percentages... O-Swing% - Z-Swing% - Swing% - O-Contact% -Z-Contact% -Contact% Zone% - F-Strike% - SwStr%. Everyone of those stats are also up from his 2009 season other than a measly 0.2% @ O-Swing%. A grand total of 0 pitches that he throws has gone for a positive value this season. Jenks has gotten smoked, as 26% of his pitches have been hit for line drives, while 19% is roughly league average.

 

Something has to be done, as this has been occurring now since the second half of last season. Bobby jenks did not start pitching terrible overnight. A move has to be made, no questions asked. Whether a move is made for the short term or long term i don't care. He might figure things out in another role, then again he might not. All that i know is he is no longer deserving of his role which is so vital to this teams success.

 

[Jordan4life_2007]

The BBTN breakdown of the balks was f***ing awful.

 

WHYYYYYYYYYY do you guys still watch BBTN? Like Chucky, MLB network is your friend to the end.

[greg775]

Something has to be done, as this has been occurring now since the second half of last season. Bobby jenks did not start pitching terrible overnight. A move has to be made, no questions asked. Whether a move is made for the short term or long term i don't care. He might figure things out in another role, then again he might not. All that i know is he is no longer deserving of his role which is so vital to this teams success.

 

Fine, if you want to go with Matt. I have no problem with that.

But some want Putz. Cmon. Until Bobby costs the Sox a ton of games, no Putz as closer.

I listed some guys from 05 I don't like in one thread BTW.

 

[Heads22]

greg, Bobby is putting up raw numbers that would get him sent down on a lot of teams -

[greg775]

I didn't see the game but somebody said he retired the last 2 batters.

Who cares about his numbers until he starts blowing saves?

This message board is a tough crowd.

[BearSox]

I didn't see the game but somebody said he retired the last 2 batters.

Who cares about his numbers until he starts blowing saves?

This message board is a tough crowd.

 

Maybe if you saw his piss poor performance in the 9th, you'd have a different opinion Greg. But hey, he got the last two outs!!!! That must mean he's getting the job done! Hey, he's only blown 1 save, lets forget the fact he has gotten absolutely hammered out there every game he comes into pitch!!!

 

Its arguments like yours--"he retired the last 2 batters, there is no need to worry!!!!!!!"--that make me want to pull my hair out and punt a baby accros a football field.

[greg775]

Why does my argument freak you out? I didn't see the inning, true, but I know his track record and it's been good.

I said I wouldn't mind going to Thornton if Oz and Coop, etc., feel that is better. Or a closer by committee thing.

But to act like Bobby is Randy or Koch just isn't right IMO. Maybe if I watched it I'd feel differently, but people are saying he's throwing 95!?

[BearSox]

Why does my argument freak you out? I didn't see the inning, true, but I know his track record and it's been good.

I said I wouldn't mind going to Thornton if Oz and Coop, etc., feel that is better. Or a closer by committee thing.

But to act like Bobby is Randy or Koch just isn't right IMO. Maybe if I watched it I'd feel differently, but people are saying he's throwing 95!?

95 mph doesn't mean s*** if it's as straight as an arrow and none of your secondary pitches are effective anymore, and you can't even get them over the plate.

 

Jenks has been beyond bad this year, and its about time he took a break and played mop up man for a little bit.

[hogan873]

I usually keep my mouth shut when arguments break out on this board. But I have to put my two cents in on this Jenks issue.

 

If you allow the first 6 batters to reach base and give up three runs before you even get two outs, you are NOT effective. I don't care if Bobby "got the job done". In my mind, he didn't get the job done. He was in the game to get three outs and secure the win (not a save situation, but he's still in there to secure a win). You can argue all you want that Jenks did okay because he got the three outs, and the Sox won. What it comes down to is that I don't trust him in save situations. I haven't liked him there all season, and yesterday put a nail in that proverbial coffin. He is not effective anymore and should not be closing games. Straight as an arrow fastballs and ineffective breaking stuff is a recipe for losing games.

[greg775]

Those are reasonable points in backing your position.

It seems Oz is going to wait until he blows a save again before replacing him, though.

I don't know why closer by committee would be bad. Let Thornton try it next save situation or Putz. Give Bob a day off.

Edited May 27, 2010 by greg775

[Balta1701]

Give Bob a day off.

It's not like he's overworked.

[greg775]

I usually keep my mouth shut when arguments break out on this board. But I have to put my two cents in on this Jenks issue.

 

If you allow the first 6 batters to reach base and give up three runs before you even get two outs, you are NOT effective. I don't care if Bobby "got the job done". In my mind, he didn't get the job done. He was in the game to get three outs and secure the win (not a save situation, but he's still in there to secure a win). You can argue all you want that Jenks did okay because he got the three outs, and the Sox won. What it comes down to is that I don't trust him in save situations. I haven't liked him there all season, and yesterday put a nail in that proverbial coffin. He is not effective anymore and should not be closing games. Straight as an arrow fastballs and ineffective breaking stuff is a recipe for losing games.

 

You should speak up more often. This argument pretty much shuts up my point better than most that I've read.

Is Joliet a nonconfrontational environment?

[hogan873]

You should speak up more often. This argument pretty much shuts up my point better than most that I've read.

Is Joliet a nonconfrontational environment?

No, I've been married for 11 years, so I've learned to keep quiet.

[witesoxfan]

I disagree. When it really comes down to it the only thing that matters is winning. Granted if Bobby keeps up his performances the odds are that he will lose more games.

 

I couldn't care less about the stats he puts up as long as they win. I know if had this discussion about starting pitchers as well but all I care about is the win.

 

It's like managing people. Do you give your group a goal and then micromanage them and check on the progress hourly or do you let them do what they need to do to accomplish the goal. I for one don't care how they do it as long as the job gets done. Again, if he starts losing the games the situation changes.

 

When that volcano starts rumbling and spewing smoke do you maybe think about making your move or do you wait until it incinerates your home?

 

Exactly.

 

Statistics are essentially a measurement of predicted future success, so while it's cool to look at amazing statistics, the reason they are recorded and people look at them is to see how successful teams and players have been or will be in the near future. A lot of them are very raw and can't tell you a whole lot about future success (simply due to the fickle nature of the game), but if you use a combination of them and what you actually see with your eyes, you can make certain judgments. ERA and WHIP are much better indicators of future success than SV%, and Bobby fails both the eye test and the statistical test. It would be better to get him on track right now and let someone who has been more effective in getting outs efficiently close out games than let him allow 2 runs in a 3-run game and barely get out alive, because sooner rather than later (if he doesn't get on track), he is going to allow 4 runs in a 3-run game, and it will demoralize this team.