Israeli soldiers open fire on aid convoy trying to enter Gaza

[Rex Kickass]

Glad to know that you were there for the first hand confirmation of the news stories put out by the Palis only seconds after the incident happened, as if they somehow already had them prepared! One account says they attacked the ship, the others say they boarded for inspection and were themselves attacked. There is also apparently video proving each side is correct. (Surprise, surprise!) The so-called peace flotilla stated its intentions of running the blockade, why should the Israelis have waited until it crossed the border to take action? Would that have made it all better in your eyes? if the boats were inside territorial waters, would you have a different story, or just find a different angle to attack on? They went there for an altercation, planned for it, had press releases ready and everything, and they got what they were looking for. If the goods were purely humanitarian in nature, why did they not take the israelis up on their offer to offload the goods at port and have them transported across the border by land? Because they WANTED a fight.

 

I am not absolving the IFF of any responsibility. I take issue with them being called a terrorist organization when they clearly are not. This was a provocation to end an embargo that was enforced by Israel AND Egypt. Israel chose to take measures that were beyond what should have happened. Egypt responded by essentially opening up their border and ending the effective embargo.

 

If the boat was in territorial waters? It would still be unacceptable, but at least there would be a leg to stand on for Israel. Now, they essentially have none.

[Balta1701]

For more details on why going through Israeli checkpoints for aid deliveries really isn't an honest option, I'm going to go with this summary of the type of things being blockaded from Globalsecurity.org (note that it's not a liberal website in the least). The basic message is...the blockade is so stringent, that even if most people would label things like construction materials and most foodstuffs as humanitarian, Israel has been blocking it.

Since 2007 Israel has enforced a strict blockade of Gaza, seriously impeding persons and goods from entering or leaving. On June 14, 2007, Israel banned the export of all goods from the Gaza Strip and the importation of anything except what the Israeli government labelled as “humanitarian” into Gaza. The blockade resulted in the closure of most of the manufacturing industry, which was deprived of materials and export markets, and led to a surge in unemployment which currently stands at 40%. The Israeli blockade around Gaza, on land and along the coast, was established so that contraband weapons and equipment used for rockets to shell Israel will not enter Gaza. While food stuffs entered Gaza, the shipments are tightly controlled and items such as tomato paste and pasta are sometimes restricted by the Israelis.

 

Following hostilities in Gaza in January 2009, Israel severely tightened restrictions at crossings into the Gaza Strip. International and Israeli human rights organizations described this action as "collective punishment" of the residents of Gaza, as it restricts access to basic goods and restricts civilians desiring to go abroad temporarily or change their place of residence permanently.

 

Following its December 2008-January 2009 combat operations in the Gaza Strip, Israel enforced a near-total blockade on the entrance of reconstruction materials to repair damaged homes, schools, and civilian infrastructure. Infrastructure damage amounted to about US$2 billion and would take 3 to 5 years to repair, according to the Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics. The UN Development Programme is prepared a plan for Gaza reconstruction. Many nations had pledged support, including Saudi Arabia, which had offered US$1 billion toward rebuilding infrastructure, including health facilities.

 

One challenge is figuring out how to get those building supplies into Gaza. Israel has a long-standing ban on goods entering Gaza that could be used to make bombs — namely pipes and fertilizer. “We're looking to work with the international community to identify the needs on a project-by-project basis so that we know where each piece of piping is going so they can't be taken advantage of to rebuild bunkers and rockets,” says Peter Lerner, spokesperson for the Israeli Defense Forces. “In the past, we were limiting movement of pipes into Gaza because even after being put into the ground they were dug up and used for rockets.”

 

Palestinians cannot rebuild their homes, their schools, or their hospitals because they cannot import the cement needed to complete the projects. They cannot build sewage systems and prevent 55 million metric meters of sewage flow into the Mediterranean because the Israelis limit the amount of construction materials into Gaza.

 

A tunnel system developed in South Gaza to circumvents the Israeli blockade. Gazans have succeeded in achieving a modest recovery from the destruction they were left to face in 2009. This modest recovery was supported by international actors, but was also made possible by the extensive entry of goods from Egypt via cross-border tunnels. Many people have reportedly been killed while building or working in the tunnels. Yet the demand for goods and the need for people to make a living are so great that this commercial activity continues, a fact commonly acknowledged.This created a new power base based on criminal activity and not the rule of law. The HAMAS has reaped the benefits and is becoming more powerful.

 

A limited supply of fuel and spare parts to fix and maintain the electrical system were allowed into Gaza, including industrial diesel for Gaza's only power plant and cooking gas. By November 2009 only one-third of needed cooking fuel was entering Gaza. The sewage and water systems were also frequently inoperable due to lack of spare parts and fuel, and ensuing power outages. The IDF prevented demining teams from bringing in explosives to destroy unexploded ordnance into Gaza. In the last quarter of the year, the IDF allowed more materials into Gaza. For example, in late December 2009 the IDF announced that 100 truckloads of window glass would be permitted entry to Gaza for the commercial market. The IDF also allowed cement to be brought in.

[Balta1701]

I also found this to be an enlightening read on the raid itself.

[Balta1701]

There are what I would call rumors at this point circulating that another convoy will be headed for Gaza in a few days time. Escorted by the Turkish Navy.

 

Mind you...Turkey is a member of NATO. As is the United States of America.

 

And Article 5 of the NATO charter says, essentially, an attack on 1 NATO country is an attack on all of them.

[kapkomet]

There are what I would call rumors at this point circulating that another convoy will be headed for Gaza in a few days time. Escorted by the Turkish Navy.

 

Mind you...Turkey is a member of NATO. As is the United States of America.

 

And Article 5 of the NATO charter says, essentially, an attack on 1 NATO country is an attack on all of them.

 

 

Awesome. Now they're baiting them again, waiting for the United States specifically to sit on their ass and do nothing to prove the even bigger point.

[StrangeSox]

FYI it's stuff like this, the complete lack of building supplies, severe lack of medical supplies, and the general lack of aid that are the motivation for the flotilla.

 

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/26-7

 

 

Oh, and it's already worked:

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middl...a-95311269.html

[kapkomet]

FYI it's stuff like this, the complete lack of building supplies, severe lack of medical supplies, and the general lack of aid that are the motivation for the flotilla.

 

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/02/26-7

 

 

Oh, and it's already worked:

http://www1.voanews.com/english/news/middl...a-95311269.html

 

Oh, those poor Palestinians.

 

This works like a charm, every time.

[StrangeSox]

Yeah, they are poor. Completely impoverished. And under a very stringent blockade and trade/ aid embargo. They can't get building supplies to repair what Israel bombs. They can't get food. They don't have fuel. They don't have medical supplies.

 

Please give moral justification for blocking the supply of food and medical supplies to a completely impoverished area.

 

eta: there are plenty of s***ty people on the pro-Palestine side. Probably a lot on the boat where the violence broke out. But Israel does not hold any moral high ground.

Edited June 2, 2010 by StrangeSox

[kapkomet]

Yeah, they are poor. Completely impoverished. And under a very stringent blockade and trade/ aid embargo. They can't get building supplies to repair what Israel bombs. They can't get food. They don't have fuel. They don't have medical supplies.

 

Please give moral justification for blocking the supply of food and medical supplies to a completely impoverished area.

 

eta: there are plenty of s***ty people on the pro-Palestine side. Probably a lot on the boat where the violence broke out. But Israel does not hold any moral high ground.

 

I never said they did.

 

But it is quite interesting that any time things like this happen, it's 99.8% always Isreal's "fault" and they are "wrong".

[StrangeSox]

They tend to overreact and do really s***ty things to a completely oppressed population. And they typically ignore what the rest of the world is saying. So, yeah, they're usually wrong.

[kapkomet]

They tend to overreact and do really s***ty things to a completely oppressed population. And they typically ignore what the rest of the world is saying. So, yeah, they're usually wrong.

 

I often wonder why people like that are "completely oppressed"... when you have about 50 people representing a few hundred thousand/million who are complete idiots, it sort of makes the "completely oppressed" line a bit underwhelming.

 

Isreal's problem is they get suckered by emotional crap like this.

[StrangeSox]

They're poor and have no power and are in the middle of a conflict stretching over a millennium.

[kapkomet]

They're poor and have no power and are in the middle of a conflict stretching over a millennium.

 

And we ain't gonna solve it, and the arguements are probably pretty well settled at this point, but it's really super easy to jump to the same reaction any time anything like this happens. That's all I'm trying to say.

[DukeNukeEm]

Yeah, they are poor. Completely impoverished. And under a very stringent blockade and trade/ aid embargo. They can't get building supplies to repair what Israel bombs. They can't get food. They don't have fuel. They don't have medical supplies.

 

Please give moral justification for blocking the supply of food and medical supplies to a completely impoverished area.

Because its war and thats what happens in war?

[Balta1701]

Because its war and thats what happens in war?

Waging war against civilians is considered a war crime.

[bmags]

Because its war and thats what happens in war?

 

god you are embarrassing.

[Soxbadger]

And article 1 of NATO states that you dont do anything that the US doesnt want because well, outside of the US, which army in NATO is really that powerful? (Its some what a joke but there is a very small chance that a NATO member like Turkey would directly defy the US.)

 

At the end of the day, it is what it is. Jews/Israeli's arent right all the time, but in some ways their hand is forced. In the same way Muslims/Palestinians hands are forced.

 

I hope that one day people from both sides will agree that no matter who is right, I doubt that either god would want innocent people to suffer over pretend lines in the sand. I guess the problem is that they believe that their god does care about these lines and therefore their actions are justified.

 

Hope fades, reality sets in, would I even be any different if born into that situation?

 

Id hope that I would, but hatred tempts even the strongest people.

 

Think about the hatred toward illegal immigrants in the US, they just want "our jobs". Imagine if Mexico had attacked us 3 times in the last 50 years, and then out of the kindness of our heart, we gave the land we took back and it still wasnt enough. But at the same time, the way Israel got the land wasnt necessarily fair (although I subscribe to the belief that if you supported the Nazi's you deserve everything you got.)

 

Just not an easy situation.

 

 

[StrangeSox]

Because its war and thats what happens in war?

 

That's not a moral justification.

[Balta1701]

Link

McCain ®, Obama's opponent in the 2008 presidential election, said the White House should have offered a more forceful defense of the U.S.'s Middle Eastern ally.

 

"This is another step in a chain of unfortunate events beginning with President Obama's insistence there be a freeze as a precondition for peace talks [with the Palestinians]; a freeze on settlements in Jerusalem. Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, not a settlement," he said on Fox News on Tuesday night. "The mistaken belief that pressuring Israel on settlement freeze would somehow move them closer and show the Arab world that they were putting pressure on Israel has backfired."

[bmags]

And then he calmly grabbed a $5800 contribution from AIPAC

[StrangeSox]

Biden: "What's the big deal?"

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/richard-ad...a-flotilla-raid

 

eta:

and here's a "guestimate" list of what is and isn't allowed into Palestine, for anyone who's curious.

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/HiddenMess...Strip060510.pdf

Edited June 2, 2010 by StrangeSox

[Balta1701]

One of the dead was a U.S. citizen.

[lostfan]

Israel does have the right to defend itself, and the right to enforce a blockade to keep weapons out of Gaza, just like any other country would, since Israel is kind of in a de facto state of war. Israel really does find itself in a lot of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situations and yes, sometimes they are held to a ridiculous double standard. The thing here is that the Israelis really came across as amateurish, like they just didn't know what the f*** they were doing, and genuinely didn't have a clue how to handle the PR debacle (or maybe even completely oblivious to the fact that there would even be one). This is something even the Israelis have been getting on the Netanyahu government about. They make things harder for themselves than they have to be and give themselves some self-inflicted wounds. I bet the Hamas leadership themselves couldn't have scored such a big strategic coup if they wanted to.

[StrangeSox]

It's not a normal situation because Gaza isn't an actual country, though. If they're going to blockade as if it was a war, then they're bound by Geneva IV and need to let in aid. Which they're not.