Conspiracy thread

[southsider2k5]

I watched an episode on the science of 9-11 conspiracy theories, and in it they said that 50% of people in 1942 thought that FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance, in 2003 73% thought that the JFK conspiracy involved our federal government to some extent, and in 2007 33% thought that at very least the US government had some sort of direct detailed knowledge of 9-11, or was even involved in the planning and execution of it.

 

I am curious what everyone else here thinks.

[knightni]

#4 Being "Grindy" won the Sox games in '05.

[BearSox]

I doubt any of them involved conspiracy, but if I had to pick one, it would have to be FDR and Pearl Harbor.

[lostfan]

I doubt any of them involved conspiracy, but if I had to pick one, it would have to be FDR and Pearl Harbor.

The information was there and had been collected, but a decision had been made some decades before, prior to FDR being president, to de-prioritize funding for cryptographic intelligence. So they had these messages and couldn't really do anything with them, although they had a vague understanding that something big was about to go down, that Japan was strongly considering war, but didn't know when exactly. The code was eventually broken, but it took time and a lot of work. The NSA said in a post-mortem (the NSA didn't get founded until 1952) that if the Army and Navy had been given more resources they'd have cracked the code a lot sooner.

 

FDR really did go out of his way to portray America as an innocent victim that was deliberately deceived by the Japanese Empire though, and the government wasn't caught completely by surprise, but that was mostly to drum up public support, not really a part of any conspiracy.

[Brian]

I doubt any of them involved conspiracy, but if I had to pick one, it would have to be FDR and Pearl Harbor.

 

I would say JFK, but don't think any are.

[knightni]

JFK was a planned event somehow. Otherwise, why would people still talk about it to this day?

 

The CIA turned a blind eye to it. I don't think that there was direct government involvement in the event - they just allowed it to happen.

 

It had to have been organized by the people who helped elect him - mafia, union bosses, high donation businessmen & other political party officials. People that he and his brother pissed off by ignoring them or working against them after he got into office. His dad had all sorts of questionable characters in his past that allowed his family succeed in whatever they wanted. These guys got Kennedy into office in order to get clout and influence, but JFK wouldn't work with them.

 

They hired Oswald to carry out the shooting because he was the perfect guy to do it. But, the cover-up afterward is mostly where it gets weird.

 

http://www.jfkresearch.com/morningstar/killgallen.htm

 

That's an interesting article.

 

I'm not saying that there was a "grassy knoll shooter" or a magic bullet. I'm just saying that there was a reason behind it other than one guy just deciding to do it.

[Quin]

Where's the "American Revolution" option?

[Balta1701]

I find it to be an interesting look at the American Character that no matter how complex these events were, a group of people are still not able to accept them being as history records them.

[HuskyCaucasian]

I'm almost entirety in the "None of the above" category. With time, I am pretty sure Pearl Harbor has been debunked and 9/11 is non-starter since Al-Quida has taken full responsibility. With regards to JFK, this one has some interesting twist and turns, but in general I believe it was one man... or few people... that were not associated with the government. The ONLY thing i find interesting is I remember hearing years ago that there are a bunch of JFK assassination investigation files that were put under lock and key for something like 50 years. I have never been able to re-find this info again, but if true, then that is very interesting.

[Milkman delivers]

I don't believe there's any way that Oswald acted alone. I have no idea who else was involved, but there was someone else.

[hogan873]

I voted none of the above, although all three have some suspect characteristics. The one incident that I truly believe involved some government coverup was TWA 800. There was just way too much information out there about the possibility of the plane being shot down by the Navy.

[Balta1701]

The one incident that I truly believe involved some government coverup was TWA 800. There was just way too much information out there about the possibility of the plane being shot down by the Navy.

IMO, based on t he investigation, not a chance.

[NorthSideSox72]

Where's the "American Revolution" option?

 

Huh?

 

[southsider2k5]

The information was there and had been collected, but a decision had been made some decades before, prior to FDR being president, to de-prioritize funding for cryptographic intelligence. So they had these messages and couldn't really do anything with them, although they had a vague understanding that something big was about to go down, that Japan was strongly considering war, but didn't know when exactly. The code was eventually broken, but it took time and a lot of work. The NSA said in a post-mortem (the NSA didn't get founded until 1952) that if the Army and Navy had been given more resources they'd have cracked the code a lot sooner.

 

FDR really did go out of his way to portray America as an innocent victim that was deliberately deceived by the Japanese Empire though, and the government wasn't caught completely by surprise, but that was mostly to drum up public support, not really a part of any conspiracy.

 

The more I have read about FDR in the time period of 1939 to Dec 6, 1941, the less I agree with that. He talked over and over again about needing the one incident to be able to break down the isolationist movement in the US, and he had been taking us step by step to war, without most of the country realizing it. He himself was busted by the one and only Chicago Tribune days before the Japanese attack that there would need to be millions of troops sent to Europe to defeat Hitler, and that meant us. Everything indicates he wanted it to happen. FDR even lied about the events of a couple of our incidents in the Atlantic with the Nazi's to try to make the case for war more palatable to America.

 

FDR also knew by ordering an oil embargo against Japan, they would have to start attacking either the Dutch East Indies (Britain) or the USSR, which had already been attacked by Germany, to find an oil supply. Heck reading some of the things that FDR and Churchill were talking about during that time period that have been released, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he knew Pearl Harbor was coming ahead of time.

[Balta1701]

it wouldn't surprise me at all if he knew Pearl Harbor was coming ahead of time.

There is zero chance any leader would have left his navy exposed in that way if he had an inkling of a time or a place.. Not the entire fleet.

 

They knew that a Japanese first strike was a strong possibility. But that was why the fleet moved to Pearl; to respond to a potential first strike

[NorthSideSox72]

There is zero chance any leader would have left his navy exposed in that way if he had an inkling of a time or a place.. Not the entire fleet.

 

They knew that a Japanese first strike was a strong possibility. But that was why the fleet moved to Pearl; to respond to a potential first strike

That sounds more likely.

 

[southsider2k5]

There is zero chance any leader would have left his navy exposed in that way if he had an inkling of a time or a place.. Not the entire fleet.

 

They knew that a Japanese first strike was a strong possibility. But that was why the fleet moved to Pearl; to respond to a potential first strike

 

Look at the incidents FDR used to try to get us into the war before this. Each one was bigger and bigger, and it still wasn't enough to get the US in. He knew it would literally take an act of war to get us in, which is exactly what he wanted. Read his correspondence with Churchill for the years before the act and it really reinforces it. FDRs own words make me think he knew more than anything else does. Don't forget one of his big plans also had gotten out the weak before and undermined a lot of the support he was trying to build. If he pulled out part of the fleet at the perfect time, it would have made any allegations that he knew about this ahead of time a lot more tacky.

[Soxbadger]

From everything ive read about WWII, there is no reason to believe that there was a govt conspiracy to allow Pearl Harbor to happen. In fact the US specifically moved its fleet to Pearl Harbor in case of a Japanese attack.

 

It may have made sense for the US to try and antagonize the Japanese into open conflict to end isolationism, but it would not have been in their best interest to have basically the entire fleet destroyed (but for the carriers who happened to be doing practice maneuvers. ) Furthermore, individual people overlooked radar, which should have tipped the US off to the Japanese attack.

 

Just no way FDR would have put his entire pacific fleet at risk. Had the US known, you would have seen most of the battleships, etc not in the harbor that day. People still would have gone for war, you just wouldnt have had to rebuild the Pacific Fleet.

 

FDR's actions for the most part were to force GERMANY to attack the US. Its very likely that absent a direct attack by Japan that the US would have gotten very involved in the Pacific. The Pacific was colonies of Europe, and you dont really care about the colony when the mother country is under occupation.

 

Some people believe the US painted Japan into a corner, but at the end of the day Japan misjudged the United States. Japan believed war with the US was inevitable, when the reality was that FDR/US didnt really want to fight Japan, they just wanted to make sure that the Pacific resources of the allies were safe.

 

Most likely the US and Japan could have cut a deal where Japan kept most of the land it took in China, etc. But once they attacked Pearl Harbor, it was over for them.

 

No conspiracy in my opinion.

 

FDR believed that Germany would eventually attack US ships, or just openly declare war if he kept helping the allies.

[Balta1701]

Just no way FDR would have put his entire pacific fleet at risk. Had the US known, you would have seen most of the battleships, etc not in the harbor that day. People still would have gone for war, you just wouldnt have had to rebuild the Pacific Fleet.

If FDR managed to not only bring the U.S. into the war, but also managed to arrange for the Japanese attack to happen on the one weekend where his carriers were off not only doing exercises but also delivering fighters to Wake, such that zero of the U.S. carriers were hit...then he's not only an incredible manipulator, he's the greatest military strategic mind since Alexander, because he would have had to have foresaw the end of the Battleship as capital ship and its replacement by the carrier before anyone else other than Yamamoto, to the point that he was willing to gamble everything on his carriers not being caught.

[Chisoxfn]

The more I have read about FDR in the time period of 1939 to Dec 6, 1941, the less I agree with that. He talked over and over again about needing the one incident to be able to break down the isolationist movement in the US, and he had been taking us step by step to war, without most of the country realizing it. He himself was busted by the one and only Chicago Tribune days before the Japanese attack that there would need to be millions of troops sent to Europe to defeat Hitler, and that meant us. Everything indicates he wanted it to happen. FDR even lied about the events of a couple of our incidents in the Atlantic with the Nazi's to try to make the case for war more palatable to America.

 

FDR also knew by ordering an oil embargo against Japan, they would have to start attacking either the Dutch East Indies (Britain) or the USSR, which had already been attacked by Germany, to find an oil supply. Heck reading some of the things that FDR and Churchill were talking about during that time period that have been released, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he knew Pearl Harbor was coming ahead of time.

I fully believe that FDR was aware of Pearl Harbor. Albeit, Balta & Badger bring up logical counterpoints.

[Chisoxfn]

There is zero chance any leader would have left his navy exposed in that way if he had an inkling of a time or a place.. Not the entire fleet.

 

They knew that a Japanese first strike was a strong possibility. But that was why the fleet moved to Pearl; to respond to a potential first strike

I thought the majority of the big cruisers and aircraft carriers were not stationed at the base the day of the attack? Am I mistaken?

[Chisoxfn]

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/...6315/pearl.html

 

Above is a site on the Pearl Harbor conspiracy.

[KipWellsFan]

For an upcoming project, Tom Hanks has obtained the rights to Vincent Bugliosi's controversial Reclaiming History: The Assassination of President John F. Kennedy. He is eager to weigh in on America's quintessential murder mystery. (Bugliosi is best known for having put Charles Manson in prison for the Tate murders.) Hanks and Gary Goetzman will act as executive producers, and Hanks hopes the adaptation will air in 2013. He believes the public has been snookered into believing that Lee Harvey Oswald was framed. "We're going to do the American public a service," Hanks says. "A lot of conspiracy types are going to be upset. If we do it right, it'll be perhaps one of the most controversial things that has ever been on TV." (See the top 10 Tom Hanks hairstyles.)

 

The Kennedy assassination is the fire-breathing dragon of U.S. history, and Hanks seems singularly hubristic about grabbing its tail. Once, when I interviewed Gerald Ford at his home office in Rancho Mirage, Calif., for a book, the ex-President pulled me aside, pointing to that week's incoming correspondence. Mail about his role in the Warren Commission was three or four feet high compared with a measly inch pertaining to his White House tenure. But Hanks is perfectly aware of the beehive he is about to kick over. He seems to relish the prospect.

 

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,85...69606-4,00.html

[Brian]

http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,85...69606-4,00.html

 

Another HBO miniseries? I'd watch it.

[farmteam]

Look at the incidents FDR used to try to get us into the war before this. Each one was bigger and bigger, and it still wasn't enough to get the US in. He knew it would literally take an act of war to get us in, which is exactly what he wanted. Read his correspondence with Churchill for the years before the act and it really reinforces it. FDRs own words make me think he knew more than anything else does. Don't forget one of his big plans also had gotten out the weak before and undermined a lot of the support he was trying to build. If he pulled out part of the fleet at the perfect time, it would have made any allegations that he knew about this ahead of time a lot more tacky.

 

Confirmation bias much?

 

Anyway, I agree mostly with what has been said. I think FDR/some parts of the government knew SOMETHING was about to happen, including possibly an act of war, but they didn't know explicitly it would be Pearl Harbor on December 7th.

 

I've never really seen any even remotely damning evidence about 9/11. I also just don't believe that there are enough people required to be in on that sort of conspiracy who would be willing to let several thousand Americans die in an attack on continental American soil.

 

As for JFK...I could believe that there was a conspiracy of some sort, probably involving the mafia or unions, but not with the federal government itself.