GT: Rangers @ White Sox 6/1, 7:10PM, CSN

[SoxAce]

And why are you second guessers ignoring the Lexi at bat??

Don't just skip over that one and go to Omar.

Why is Lexi being skipped over here? Because it's easy to point to .... oooh Ozzie didn't pinch hit for Omar.

 

Alexei can hit high velocity fastballs, and is a better hitter right now than the old man Vizquel. Hell many of us ripped Alexei for swinging at the first pitch if you didn't see. But I'm sure noone has no problem seeing a fastball hitter (with POWER) hit there.

[greg775]

What's Lexi's excuse and excuses for all the other players who f***ed up in at bats you could point to tonight?

Yeah it all boils down to one decision.

 

No wait ... Oz also screwed up pitching Randy and Liney. Those runs were important. Those guys should never ever be in the game.

And he left mark in too long.

 

It takes talent, folks. This team has just enough talent to lose most series it plays in. If it makes you feel better to make Oz the scapegoat, go for it.

 

-- and Lexi really hit that high velocity fastball or whatever Feliz threw him. He failed.

Edited June 2, 2010 by greg775

[Kalapse]

What's Lexi's excuse and excuses for all the other players who f***ed up in at bats you could point to tonight?

Yeah it all boils down to one decision.

 

No wait ... Oz also screwed up pitching Randy and Liney. Those runs were important. Those guys should never ever be in the game.

And he left mark in too long.

 

It takes talent, folks. This team has just enough talent to lose most series it plays in.

You're arguing that leaving Omar in was the right thing to do when it quite obviously was not that's why it's being discussed so much.

 

It's just annoying when the manager doesn't put his players in the best possible position to succeed which is exactly what happened with the final hitter tonight.

[Harry Chappas]

Just walked in from the game. For the weather that was one of the worst attended games I can remember.

 

My thoughts and I have not read this thread;

 

Santos should have faced the two RHH both batting below .210 in the 6th

There is no reason for Mark Kotsay to be on this team.

Randy Williams is not a MLB pitcher.

Alexi Ramirez could be one of the dumbest players I have ever seen.

 

Other than that, a great game.

 

KW needs to start moving players

[greg775]

It's just annoying when the manager doesn't put his players in the best possible position to succeed which is exactly what happened with the final hitter tonight.

 

So for the record, you wanted Nix? Who is who I wanted to start the game to begin with.

Whatever ... we had chances to win and squandered them.

It was a horrible baseball game from a Sox standpoint.

If you think Omar had no chance to dribble a single, fine. Lexi could have slammed a single and didn't. Omar flied out.

Nix probably would have popped up on the first pitch or whiffed.

Your argument stands as the winning one because the game is over and a lousy Sox team lost again. In any loss you can second guess and you will win. That's the nature of a loss.

[fathom]

And why are you second guessers ignoring the Lexi at bat??

Don't just skip over that one and go to Omar.

Why is Lexi being skipped over here? Because it's easy to point to .... oooh Ozzie didn't pinch hit for Omar.

 

I have no problem with Alexei, one of our best fastball hitters, swinging at the first pitch fastball. It was a strike, and he knew a fastball was coming after the 4 pitch walk. I feel like you're intentionally not following why we wanted Omar to START the game...for defense. Ozzie is given a bench to have hitters PH depending on the match-up. This is second guessing, go back and read the game thread from the 9th inning.

[Kalapse]

So for the record, you wanted Nix? Who is who I wanted to start the game to begin with.

Whatever ... we had chances to win and squandered them.

It was a horrible baseball game from a Sox standpoint.

If you think Omar had no chance to dribble a single, fine. Lexi could have slammed a single and didn't. Omar flied out.

Nix probably would have popped up on the first pitch or whiffed.

Your argument stands as the winning one because the game is over and a lousy Sox team lost again. In any loss you can second guess and you will win. That's the nature of a loss.

You can say that all you want but it doesn't change the fact that he would have had a significantly better chance at doing damage vs Feliz than the man that ended the game. And stop saying it was a second guess, when you say it before it happens it's called first guessing. If he pinch hits for Vizquel with Nix and he strikes out on 3 fastballs right down the middle then it's disappointing that he failed but reassuring that the manager put in the best man for the job, it just didn't work out.

 

And once and for all wanting Omar to start has absolutely nothing to do with his 9th inning AB, he should be in the lineup for his DEFENSE and his defense only which means very little at the plate one out away from defeat.

[southsideirish71]

And why are you second guessers ignoring the Lexi at bat??

Don't just skip over that one and go to Omar.

Why is Lexi being skipped over here? Because it's easy to point to .... oooh Ozzie didn't pinch hit for Omar.

 

Greg, let me introduce you to the principle of Occam's razor. Feliz is a pitcher who has some odd splits. Lefties only hit .106 against him, and have a terrible .313 OPS against him. Righties on the other side hit .293 with a .868 OPS. So if lefties are basically automatic outs, and righties hit him pretty well. Which one exactly would you rather have up there. Now thats before we add the 43 year old slow bat of light hitting Omar Vizquel who is already questioning if he should retire at the end of the season. Now if you can't see that was a poor matchup then I don't know how to help you.

[greg775]

I know you have no problem with Lexi's at bat. What I'm saying is why not? Cause it's easier to look at the Omar situation and say Oz should have pinch hit for him.

 

I know why you wanted Omar to start, for defense with Mark pitching. Since he did start and get two hits and a walk, I have no problem with him making the final out after Lexi also looked wretched in making the second out. You guys don't even admit the possibility the great Nix and/or Jones would have popped up, struck out, which is what I say they would have done.

[fathom]

I know you have no problem with Lexi's at bat. What I'm saying is why not? Cause it's easier to look at the Omar situation and say Oz should have pinch hit for him.

 

I know why you wanted Omar to start, for defense with Mark pitching. Since he did start and get two hits and a walk, I have no problem with him making the final out after Lexi also looked wretched in making the second out. You guys don't even admit the possibility the great Nix and/or Jones would have popped up, struck out, which is what I say they would have done.

 

Heck, they probably would have made an out. But their chances at having an impact on the Sox potentially winning in the 9th was a lot higher than Omar's. I'm done talking about this though, as it's not worth our time.

[SoxAce]

Greg, let me introduce you to the principle of Occam's razor. Feliz is a pitcher who has some odd splits. Lefties only hit .106 against him, and have a terrible .313 OPS against him. Righties on the other side hit .293 with a .868 OPS. So if lefties are basically automatic outs, and righties hit him pretty well. Which one exactly would you rather have up there. Now thats before we add the 43 year old slow bat of light hitting Omar Vizquel who is already questioning if he should retire at the end of the season. Now if you can't see that was a poor matchup then I don't know how to help you.

 

Oh man this is an outstanding post! :notworthy

[greg775]

Greg, let me introduce you to the principle of Occam's razor. Feliz is a pitcher who has some odd splits. Lefties only hit .106 against him, and have a terrible .313 OPS against him. Righties on the other side hit .293 with a .868 OPS. So if lefties are basically automatic outs, and righties hit him pretty well. Which one exactly would you rather have up there. Now thats before we add the 43 year old slow bat of light hitting Omar Vizquel who is already questioning if he should retire at the end of the season. Now if you can't see that was a poor matchup then I don't know how to help you.

 

I appreciate that post and you looking that up. I do.

That said, how do explain young Lexi's righthanded at bat? I can explain it. Our team SUCKS.

[Kalapse]

I know you have no problem with Lexi's at bat. What I'm saying is why not? Cause it's easier to look at the Omar situation and say Oz should have pinch hit for him.

 

I know why you wanted Omar to start, for defense with Mark pitching. Since he did start and get two hits and a walk, I have no problem with him making the final out after Lexi also looked wretched in making the second out. You guys don't even admit the possibility the great Nix and/or Jones would have popped up, struck out, which is what I say they would have done.

It's unbelievable that you don't get this.

 

I don't give a s*** if he goes 3 for 3 with 3 doubles against Harden and Oliver, he CAN'T be hitting against a man with a completely different makeup than them in the 9th, he didn't have a shot in hell.

 

Alexei was in a good position to succeed up there in the 9th, he just didn't come through it happens. The problem arises when the manager breaks the CARDINAL RULE OF MANAGING: "Always, always, always put your players in the absolute best position to succeed." The Cardinal rule was broken with Omar and it's going to be talked about.

 

Was Nix guaranteed to get a hit? f*** no. Would he have given us a better chance than Omar? Undoubtedly. Taking every opportunity to give your team a better chance to win, a couple players failing earlier in the inning doesn't grant Ozzie a free pass to stop managing when we're down to our final out.

[greg775]

It's unbelievable YOU DONT GET THIS.

Omar had a couple of hits. Yes there is a chance he might smack one of the immortal Feliz's pitches up the middle for a base hit.

You act like the 21 year old Feliz has a career set of stats to go by.

 

You got your numbers. I got my generalities. Omar could have got a hit; Lexi could have got a hit. They didn't. This team uh, sucks.

[JohnCangelosi]

It's unbelievable that you don't get this.

 

I don't give a s*** if he goes 3 for 3 with 3 doubles against Harden and Oliver, he CAN'T be hitting against a man with a completely different makeup than them in the 9th, he didn't have a shot in hell.

 

Alexei was in a good position to succeed up there in the 9th, he just didn't come through it happens. The problem arises when the manager breaks the CARDINAL RULE OF MANAGING: "Always, always, always put your players in the absolute best position to succeed." The Cardinal rule was broken with Omar and it's going to be talked about.

 

Was Nix guaranteed to get a hit? f*** no. Would he have given us a better chance than Omar? Undoubtedly. Taking every opportunity to give your team a better chance to win, a couple players failing earlier in the inning doesn't grant Ozzie a free pass to stop managing when we're down to our final out.

That's exactly it. Time and time again Ozzie does NOT put us in the best position to succeed. We've seen it with his decision making on the use of his pitching staff, the lineups he makes, and in some cases bonehead decisions to not make the obvious call to pinch hit for someone such as tonight.

 

I'd say the overwhelming majority of the problematic decisions Ozzie makes, however, is on the use of his pen and leaving the starters in an inning too long. He's probably the worst manager in the league at this and consistently lowers our chances of winning based on these decisions.

[fathom]

That's exactly it. Time and time again Ozzie does NOT put us in the best position to succeed. We've seen it with his decision making on the use of his pitching staff, the lineups he makes, and in some cases bonehead decisions to not make the obvious call to pinch hit for someone such as tonight.

 

I'd say the overwhelming majority of the problematic decisions Ozzie makes, however, is on the use of his pen and leaving the starters in an inning too long. He's probably the worst manager in the league at this and consistently lowers our chances of winning based on these decisions.

 

He needs to stop reading the back of baseball cards, and realize that guys like Peavy and Buerhle aren't the same pitchers they were a few seasons ago. Both of those guys have put a ton of innings on their arms at a very young age in the majors.

[qwerty]

It's getting to be a toss up between which is worse. Greg or the people that continuously respond to him.

[greg775]

It's getting to be a toss up between which is worse. Greg or the people that continuously respond to him.

 

Yeah, just ignore a differing opinion. We should all always agree. You will NEVER find me belittling somebody or acting like a prick. it's civil discussion.

Edited June 2, 2010 by greg775

[Kalapse]

It's unbelievable YOU DONT GET THIS.

Omar had a couple of hits. Yes there is a chance he might smack one of the immortal Feliz's pitches up the middle for a base hit.

You act like the 21 year old Feliz has a career set of stats to go by.

 

You got your numbers. I got my generalities. Omar could have got a hit; Lexi could have got a hit. They didn't. This team uh, sucks.

Mark Buehrle COULD have got a hit, doesn't mean we should have pinch hit him in the 9th.

 

Do me a favor just to restore my faith in humanity answer this question with a simply yes or no, nothing else required or desired:

 

Given all the data supplied in this thread:

 

Omar can't high velocity pitchers

Lefties struggle mightily against Feliz

Righties hit Feliz pretty well

2 of our bench players have had some form of success against pitchers like Feliz

 

Would Nix or Jones have had even a 0.00000001% better chance at picking up a hit off Neftali Feliz than Omar Vizquel?

[greg775]

Mark Buehrle COULD have got a hit, doesn't mean we should have pinch hit him in the 9th.

 

Do me a favor just to restore my faith in humanity answer this question with a simply yes or no, nothing else required or desired:

 

Given all the data supplied in this thread:

 

Omar can't high velocity pitchers

Lefties struggle mightily against Feliz

Righties hit Feliz pretty well

2 of our bench players have had some form of success against pitchers like Feliz

 

Would Nix or Jones have had even a 0.00000001% better chance at picking up a hit off Neftali Feliz than Omar Vizquel?

Go to the top of the pageReport Post

 

 

+

 

I would like to say yes and would love to say yes and might say yes but I tell you, my god, Feliz is how old? How long has he been in the league? The story on his stats/tendenies has yet to be written. So I can't give you a 100 percent yes because Omar may have had as good a chance of dribbling his third hit as Nix/Jones of getting a base hit. I do appreciate all the stats, though. It's always good to see somebody willing to look up the figures.

[BearSox]

I personally felt like we should have pinch hit for Kotsay too. Anyone could tell Kotsay can't catch up to the mid-high 90's fastball, and as already pointed out, Feliz has been lightsout vs. lefties. Jones and Nix for Kotsay and Omar would have made too much sense I guess.

 

Also, Kotsay needs to sit down after his final two AB's. He's clearly over powered by the fastball, so what does he do? Not change his approach at. He'd rather try and be a big home run hitter rather than choke up an inch on the bat and meet the ball. Well, the Greg Walker bible, lift and pull.

[Kalapse]

I would like to say yes and would love to say yes and might say yes but I tell you, my god, Feliz is how old? How long has he been in the league? The story on his stats/tendenies has yet to be written. So I can't give you a 100 percent yes because Omar may have had as good a chance of dribbling his third hit as Nix/Jones of getting a base hit. I do appreciate all the stats, though. It's always good to see somebody willing to look up the figures.

It has nothing to do with track records, it has to do with the capabilities of 2 major league baseball players:

 

1.) I don't care if Feliz has been in the majors for 10 years or a day his stuff is undeniable, the man throws upwards of 103 MPH.

 

2.) Omar Vizquel is 43 years old and his bat speed is pretty horrible at this point, he can't catch up to a high 90's fastball and he's not strong enough to muscle it to the opposite field.

 

3.) Omar matched up well with Rich Harden as his fastball doesn't have much life and he was sitting at 91 MPH all night, Omar had a good chance at picking up a hit and did

 

4.) Omar matched up well with Darren O'Day who sits at 87 and throws sidearm with his right arm giving a lefty hitter a good look at the ball. Omar had a good chance at getting a hit and did.

 

Omar had no shot at picking up his 3rd hit, he's just not capable, it's so very simple: he can't get around the fastball whereas the men on the bench can. It's really not a matter of opinion it's a matter of baseball knowledge: you have to play the matchups, when a player is 43 and has no bat speed he's not going to be able to catch up to a high velocity fastball. Omar failed because he had no shot.

[greg775]

Your argument makes sense. But I disagree Omar failed because he had no shot. He hit the ball. Whenever you hit the ball, it conceivably can find open space and drop safely for a hit. There are no absolutes. If there were, many more people would make a successful living gambling for a living.

Edited June 2, 2010 by greg775

[daggins]

playing percentages is a manager's job, and the percentages favored Jones/Nix over Omar. In that situation, not pinch hitting is basically tantamount to forfeit.

 

can't disrespect the veteran though.

[BearSox]

It would have been nice if Ozzie didn't decide to use Randy Williams and Scott Linebrink in a close game...

 

Really, is the only reason why Randy is on this team is because he is a lefty? That's the biggest f***ing BS I've ever seen. I understand you would prefer to have a lefty, but more importantly you would rather have someone who is good. And if we don't have a single f***ing pitcher in AAA outside of Hudson who is better than Randy Williams, our whole f***ing scouting department and Kenny should be fired this instant.