Joe Cowley says our season is over: do you agree?

[iamshack]

I simply don't think many here (if any of us at all) have the knowledge to really have an opinion on whether our coaches are teaching the mechanics the way they should or not.

 

Criticize the managerial style and strategy of Ozzie all you want.

 

But I think we get into really muddy waters when we start going after the pitching and hitting coaches. Especoally considering we get absolutely no exposure to the teaching and side work that occurs on a daily basis.

 

[fathom]

I simply don't think many here (if any of us at all) have the knowledge to really have an opinion on whether our coaches are teaching the mechanics the way they should or not.

 

Criticize the managerial style and strategy of Ozzie all you want.

 

But I think we get into really muddy waters when we start going after the pitching and hitting coaches. Especoally considering we get absolutely no exposure to the teaching and side work that occurs on a daily basis.

 

Cooper clearly stresses throwing with less velocity in order to gain more control and hopefully relieve stress on your elbow. Masset, Contreras, and Aardsma have all mentioned this in the past few years.

[iamshack]

Cooper clearly stresses throwing with less velocity in order to gain more control and hopefully relieve stress on your elbow. Masset, Contreras, and Aardsma have all mentioned this in the past few years.

Oh, I know we can get a glimpse of the "philosophy" and concepts the coaches teach.

 

One thing that frustrates me about our hitters is that they do not seem to approach at bats with a specific purpose in mind. For instance, we constantly roll over into double plays when we need to go the other way with the ball. Or during AJs at bat yesterday in the 6th or 7th inning, Kotsay walks on 4 pitches, Quentin draws a 2-1 count then gets plunked in the rear-end. What does AJ do? Swings first pitch and grounds into a double play instead of taking a pitch or two. Then Alexei draws a 4-pitch walk. I mean, come on, go up there knowing what the plan is and execute it. And yet, we seem to just swing freely at everything in every situation.

 

But I honestly don't know enough about what it is to pitch or hit in the major leagues to know whether there is a plan that is trying to be executed and the players are just failing, or if these things are being worked on and the players are just not showing progrss...I just don't know. So it's difficult to criticize.

[fathom]

Oh, I know we can get a glimpse of the "philosophy" and concepts the coaches teach.

 

One thing that frustrates me about our hitters is that they do not seem to approach at bats with a specific purpose in mind. For instance, we constantly roll over into double plays when we need to go the other way with the ball. Or during AJs at bat yesterday in the 6th or 7th inning, Kotsay walks on 4 pitches, Quentin draws a 2-1 count then gets plunked in the rear-end. What does AJ do? Swings first pitch and grounds into a double play instead of taking a pitch or two. Then Alexei draws a 4-pitch walk. I mean, come on, go up there knowing what the plan is and execute it. And yet, we seem to just swing freely at everything in every situation.

 

But I honestly don't know enough about what it is to pitch or hit in the major leagues to know whether there is a plan that is trying to be executed and the players are just failing, or if these things are being worked on and the players are just not showing progrss...I just don't know. So it's difficult to criticize.

 

Whatever Walker is preaching, it's obviously not working. I've probably said this a million times on this board, but even if he is the world's greatest hitting coach, he needs to be fired. They need to get another voice in here to hopefully help these guys before giving up on them (ie: Quentin). The approach is awful, I give you that. As for that AJP at bat yesterday, the one thing with Masterson is you have to make him get the ball up. With his sinker, AJP swinging at a low pitch will result in a double play probably 75% of the time. What does AJP do? Swings at a low, outside sinker. It was a good swing by AJP and he didn't try to pull it, but you're not going to do anything with that pitch.

[iamshack]

Whatever Walker is preaching, it's obviously not working. I've probably said this a million times on this board, but even if he is the world's greatest hitting coach, he needs to be fired. They need to get another voice in here to hopefully help these guys before giving up on them (ie: Quentin). The approach is awful, I give you that. As for that AJP at bat yesterday, the one thing with Masterson is you have to make him get the ball up. With his sinker, AJP swinging at a low pitch will result in a double play probably 75% of the time. What does AJP do? Swings at a low, outside sinker. It was a good swing by AJP and he didn't try to pull it, but you're not going to do anything with that pitch.

I just wanted him to make the guy throw strikes...he had thrown 7 balls in 8 pitches, and AJ swings at the first pitch (that may have even been a ball), then he throws 4 strraight balls to Alexei....I mean, can't they put the damn take sign on or something?

[WCSox]

Since 2004 the White Sox team ERA AL rankings I started with 2004 because that was Greg Walker's first full year and he gets crap daily. When Walker took over in 2003 the team led the league in hitting the remainder of the season:

 

2004 11th

2005 1st

2006 10th

2007 12th

2008 6th

2009 2nd

2010 13th

 

You will use the argument they play in a bandbox, but most Sox pitchers do better at home than on the road.

 

White Sox team OPS rankings:

 

2004 4th

2005 8th

2006 3rd

2007 12th

2008 4th

2009 11th

2010 10th

 

That's nice, but your argument assumes that both coaches have had the same level of talent to work with. I don't necessarily believe that's the case.

 

Considering the White Sox spend a pretty penny on pitching, I don't think there's much of a difference. Again I'm not one for firing Cooper. I just wonder how he gets the free pass. Its not like Greg Walker hasn't had his successes with Dye, Konerko, Thome, Pods, Quentin, Rios is hitting this year. If he were a pitcher, Cooper is a genius, if he's a hitter he was always decent it has nothing to do with Walker.

 

I believe the difference is Cooper's success in developing young pitchers and turning below-average veteran arms into above-average veteran arms. Walker has inherited some really good hitters (and has certainly helped some, such as Rios), but lacks Coop's track record of turning a heaping pile of crap into a viable major-league player. Walker's had some limited success with Quentin and Beckham, but nothing near what Cooper's had.

 

That said, one could also argue that Walker didn't have a talented rookie young hitter work with until Beckham last year. So, again, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison. Then again, I'm not blaming the Sox's lack of offense on Walker, so that straw man doesn't apply to me.

Edited June 5, 2010 by WCSox

[fathom]

That said, one could also argue that Walker didn't have a talented rookie young hitter work with until Beckham last year. So, again, it's an apples-and-oranges comparison. Then again, I'm not blaming the Sox's lack of offense on Walker, so that straw man doesn't apply to me.

 

Josh Fields was pretty damn talented.

[caulfield12]

Yeah, you can't really blame Walker for Owens (largely terrible and one-dimensional), Fields (slider speed bat), Anderson (he's been dissected endlessly) and Andy Gonzalez (terrible).

 

Cooper always said his lack of success with Aardsma, Masset and Sisco was directly related to their inability to 1) work on their secondary stuff or 2) get them to feel any confidence in going to it regularly, the same could probably be said for Aaron Poreda.

 

I do think it's interesting with Contreras. He was throwing 96-97 MPH regularly in 2005/2006. He was devastating when his forkball was 80-82, but he was always basically a two pitch pitcher, even at his best. I do think that with Jose's health problems, probably Jose made an adjustment himself to ease pain and discomfort and ended up losing some of the velocity/stuff. Pretty amazing he's still throwing so hard at his age, almost like Nolan Ryan when you think about it. Jose might be 42-44 years old.

 

I'm especially concerned about trusting Walker with Danks, Retherford, Flowers, Mitchell, Morel and Viciedo.

 

OTOH, we don't have so many internal options. Gary Ward was run out of town on a rail and I have no conception of why he was brought back into the organization. I'd rather have Chambliss as our hitting coach than Ward.

 

Another thing, the 2006 collapse was basically blamed on the 2005 workload catching up with the starters, and maybe Jose's decline was an equally important part of that. Cooper wasn't able to "cure" Vazquez, but no pitching coach has had sustained success with him. And we should thank Cooper for getting Javy to the point we could get Flowers/Gilmore/Rodriguez back in return.

Edited June 6, 2010 by caulfield12

[TitoMB345]

13 people here have been drinking too much White Sox coolaid.. stick a fork in her, this seasons 100% done.

[BigSqwert]

I guess I'm just old-school in that you stick by your team no matter what. What made 2005 so special for so many was that it was so out of the ordinary from what we as Sox fans had been accustomed to. When the Sox won it all in '05, I immediately thought back to the '94 strike and the absolute disaster that was 1995 that followed. If I had just abandoned ship after that year and came back in 2005, there would be no authenticity or essence. No legitimate emotion. That's what makes winning championships so f***ing sweet (from a fan perspective).

I guess you're not as old school as you thought you were since you're rarely around to follow the games.

[caulfield12]

This was my pet peeve at WSI.

 

The "faithful" fans who ripped on Dark Clouds but who disappeared whenever the team wasn't playing well...I'm not saying you have to follow every inning of every game, that's ridiculous, especially when the Blackhawks are playing (understandable), but it seems a little hollow to blast posters for giving up or not being optimistic when you're not really following the team as much either.

 

Actions speak louder than words, as they say.

[ThunderBolt]

We all recognize that the ship is sinking. I just love how Sox Talk is a strong enough community that we can all sink together. That's why i'm hoping as things continue to get bad that we can stop taking our frustrations with this team out on each other. Things are bad enough with the club, let's spare the board.

[greg775]

That's why i'm hoping as things continue to get bad that we can stop taking our frustrations with this team out on each other.

 

When things go this bad it makes you wonder how ANYBODY thought it was a good idea to add old guys like Pierre, Jones, Omar and a stiff like Teahen and how this pitching staff could be performing this badly. Also how could CQ, Beckham and AJ suck this bad???

[Jordan4life_2007]

I guess you're not as old school as you thought you were since you're rarely around to follow the games.

 

I don't get it?

[dmbjeff]

When things go this bad it makes you wonder how ANYBODY thought it was a good idea to add old guys like Pierre, Jones, Omar and a stiff like Teahen and how this pitching staff could be performing this badly. Also how could CQ, Beckham and AJ suck this bad???

 

The denial is over and realization has set in. For weeks and weeks, I kept saying that this team would break out of it. There was no way that GB,CQ,AJ,Alexei, etc would all remain horrible. I told myself we had a great pitching staff, there is no way MB,GF,JP would continue to scuffle. It has been a tough 2 months of watching baseball. They are a bad baseball team. Kenny is in the worst position he has been in since becoming the GM. There are so many holes and deciding where to fix and with who is a tough choice.

 

GB is the future, but certainly not looking like it right now. Luckily he is under team control and pre-ARB for the next few years, so we have patience on our side with him.

 

CQ just seems to be better than your run of the mill power hitting 4th OF. He reminds me of Gomes or Hinske at this point.

 

AJ looks like he isn't the same player we have come to know in the past 4 season's. Hopefully Flowers will be able to replace him in the future, but as of now he is struggling mightily at AAA, so he probably isn't ready yet.

 

JP is signed for 1 more year and is horrible at getting on base. We wasted millions on this guy when we could of had Willy Taveras put up the same numbers for the minimum.

 

Ugh I could keep going with all the bad players we have, thank goodness for Rios and PK nthis year, they have been fun to watch at least.

[chisoxfan09]

We all recognize that the ship is sinking. I just love how Sox Talk is a strong enough community that we can all sink together. That's why i'm hoping as things continue to get bad that we can stop taking our frustrations with this team out on each other. Things are bad enough with the club, let's spare the board.

 

 

You are right TB, to lighten up the load I was looking as possible losing record scenarios if we continue to well basically tank. Don´t think we make have the worse record (O´s have it pretty much locked up) then we should have a top 5 pick. I didn´t want to look at this but hey it makes sense to build for the future now and wth the 13th this year and and a seemingly sure top 10 pick next year will go a long way to start the process to re-stocking the farm.

[bighurt4life]

This was the year that I splurged and bought MLB tv for 100bucks so i could watch as many games as possible. Being on the west coast I get to watch like 10 games a year on national TV and whenever they play the stupid mariners. I thought that i'd get to watch ace pitching 4 out of 5 games and see Beckham/Quentin tear it up all season. Oh well, next year maybe.

[kitekrazy]

When things go this bad it makes you wonder how ANYBODY thought it was a good idea to add old guys like Pierre, Jones, Omar and a stiff like Teahen

 

Yet people will claim that is Ozzie's team. In truth as Cowley wrote before this is Kenny's team.

 

[Dick Allen]

Through 55 games last year, the Sox had 3 more wins and were 6 games closer to first place than in 2010. Surprisingly they have scored 2 more runs this year compared to last, but have given up 19 more.

[iamshack]

Yet people will claim that is Ozzie's team. In truth as Cowley wrote before this is Kenny's team.

Oh man...see, this kind of thing drives me nuts....go back and read the thread a bit.

[Harry Chappas]

Yesterday I sat out there. Really sad crowd for Saturday fireworks. 30K.

 

A couple things I realized as it was the third game I had attended on the home stand.

 

This team can not get more than 3 hits in an inning. It is amazing how inept they are getting a two out single.

 

Guillen took Peavy out with 96 pitches yet left Buerhle and Danks in there to give up leads.....the only thing I could think of was he was trying to protect a guy that they are going to have for a while.

 

This team is not getting better any time soon.

 

Mitch Talbot is 3-0 with a 1.50 ERA against the Sox and 4-4 with 5.5 or something against the rest of the leage. This tells me that the White Sox do not change their approach to a pitcher and just go about whatever it is they think they can do.

[iamshack]

Yesterday I sat out there. Really sad crowd for Saturday fireworks. 30K.

 

A couple things I realized as it was the third game I had attended on the home stand.

 

This team can not get more than 3 hits in an inning. It is amazing how inept they are getting a two out single.

 

Guillen took Peavy out with 96 pitches yet left Buerhle and Danks in there to give up leads.....the only thing I could think of was he was trying to protect a guy that they are going to have for a while.

 

This team is not getting better any time soon.

 

Mitch Talbot is 3-0 with a 1.50 ERA against the Sox and 4-4 with 5.5 or something against the rest of the leage. This tells me that the White Sox do not change their approach to a pitcher and just go about whatever it is they think they can do.

And the Indians are 13-30 against the rest of MLB and 8-3 against us.

[WCSox]

Yesterday I sat out there. Really sad crowd for Saturday fireworks. 30K.

 

Considering how badly they're playing and how much tickets cost now, that's not that bad.

 

[kitekrazy]

Oh man...see, this kind of thing drives me nuts....go back and read the thread a bit.

 

It should drive you nuts because I speaketh the truth.

[kitekrazy]

Through 55 games last year, the Sox had 3 more wins and were 6 games closer to first place than in 2010. Surprisingly they have scored 2 more runs this year compared to last, but have given up 19 more.

 

The starting pitching sucks. It's only when Freddy pitches that I have some confidence of a victory. The best performances are coming from the 5th starting spot. Anytime that happens you should be in 1st.