Joe Cowley says our season is over: do you agree?

[lostfan]

It should drive you nuts because I speaketh the truth.

It probably drives him nuts because the people who say Ozzie deserves blame have clearly defined what they mean by that over and over and then seemingly every time without fail, someone drops in the thread in with a post almost exactly like yours that looks like they didn't bother reading anything.

Edited June 7, 2010 by lostfan

[iamshack]

Ding Ding Ding

[whitesoxfan101]

You actually expected four veterans to hit THIS far below their career numbers?

 

AJ - .604 OPS (career average .748)

 

Alexei - .651 OPS (career average .740)

 

Pierre - .589 OPS (career average .715)

 

Quentin - .723 OPS (career average .827)

 

AJ yes (if you check the threads from late March/early April, I said he was going to have a surprisingly poor year), Alexei yes (he always starts like crap, his OPS will be near career average by years end), Pierre yes (he really isn't the player he once was anymore, despite the good season he had last year in the perfect situation for himself) and Quentin yes (I thought after last year that 2008 was a fluke, and see no reason to back off that now).

 

Underperformance is hard to predict, and I'd be more than willing to admit I might have got lucky with such predictions in this case. But at the end of the day, this offense is overall pretty close to what most people thought it would be. The reason this team is so bad though instead of hanging around 3 or 4 out of 1st is because the starting pitching staff, which was supposed to be very good, sucks. And I will grant you that not many people saw that coming, or at least I certainly didn't.

 

Off topic, I read a couple of pages back somebody was surprised that "only" 30 thousand people were at fireworks night Saturday. I was at that game as well, and considering how useless this team is, the opponent, and the weather forecast (it was very bleak, although fortunately the bad stuff stayed south), I was surprised at how big the crowd was.

Edited June 7, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[Mr. Wedmesday]

After reading almost all of this thread, I think it should be renamed "Who to blame for this season being over".

 

It appears that many blame the coaching staff, some blame the FO, and most blame the players.

They're all right.

 

The fact that, with very few exceptions, most of the roster are putting up numbers so far below their career averages has to have an explanation beyond some evil mass hypnosis or bad juju over the Cell. How can it not?

 

The question is not what's wrong with {insert player or coach's name here}.

 

It's deeper and more insidious than that. The question is what's wrong with this organization?

And sad as it sounds, the answer is....everything.

 

 

Yes, the players need to perform. That is their job. But the situation at the "office" sucks, as it has for some time, with number of factors making it psychologically difficult to do their jobs.

 

These guys have eyes, ears, and yes, brains. They have observed everything that has been critiqued on this board first hand, from last year's clubhouse scenario to offseason blunders to OG's family issues, to bizarre lineup decisions etc.,etc., ad infinitum.

 

If we know that moving GB to 2B in favor of Teahan at third is not working out, so do they.

If we know that Kotsay, Jones or whomever platooning at DH is at best, strange, so do they.

If we know that had we not jumped on JP so early we could have had Damon in his place, so do they.

If we know that Ozzie has a short temper, a big mouth and long hook, so do they.

If we have big doubts about Alexei, so do they.

If we think it's depressing to see a sea of green seats at most games, so do they.

If we know that Kenny and Ozzie don't see eye to eye, so do they.

If we know that JR considers Ozzie a member of the family, making him "special", so do they.

If we know that JFP originally preferred the Cubs, so do they.

 

 

And on, and on, and on. We see it--they are living it. Who here hasn't worked at a place that sucked the life out of them. A place that was so obviously dysfunctional that the only sane thing to do is just show up and keep your head down-- or quit?

 

How many times can your incompetent management make obviously stupid decisions, decisions that affect your ability to do your job, before you just say f*** it?

 

All you need is a decent HDTV to see the lack of....anything.

 

Ozzie looks bored, having stated for the record that he'll never quit, they'll have to fire him, knowing how unlikely that is.

AJ stands in and swings at the first pitch virtually every at bat--looks like he just wants to get his inning ending DP over with.

GB stands at second, looks at Teahan and Alexei and might as well have WTF??? written on his forehead.

Kotsay white-knuckles every at-bat because he knows as well as you do that he's a career pinch hitter.

Jenks looks scared witless.

The coaches look stupefied or just whipped.

MB appears to be fantasizing about Busch Stadium.

jFP appears furious that he actually ended up here.

 

They all know they work for a mis-managed company that refuses to hold anyone accountable--and this includes everyone up to JR--so why try. Their boss' boss put incompetents in the next "cubicle", WTF???. Their boss makes bad decisions on a daily basis, WTF??? why expect success? The new guy makes 10 times the money and has ten times the ERA, WTF???

 

They see other teams with healthy cultures succeed in spite of lesser resources and talent. They see everything. And they see nothing being done to address it, WTF???

 

So, why not take charge yourself, become a clubhouse leader? Because your manager is a loose cannon who demands the center of attention and will kill your positive leadership because right or wrong it is all about him. And he's the owner's pet which prevents your GM from dealing with your dysfunctional manager.....

 

A bad company can only operate with this type of toxic culture for so long before it totally collapses. That collapse is imminent, if not already here.

 

A management consultant would prescribe swift, sweeping and most likely painful changes. Responsibility and accountability would be clear and consistent. Employees would have an incentive to succeed because success would become the new paradigm. Second guessing management would be eliminated because management would no longer make obviously poor decisions.

 

Sorry for the epic rant, but I love the Sox and it is obvious they are rotting from the inside out. JR is far too smart a businessman to let this organization free fall much longer.

 

The last thing this team needs is another day at the office.

 

 

 

 

O

Edited June 7, 2010 by 11and1

[WCSox]

AJ yes (if you check the threads from late March/early April, I said he was going to have a surprisingly poor year), Alexei yes (he always starts like crap, his OPS will be near career average by years end), Pierre yes (he really isn't the player he once was anymore, despite the good season he had last year in the perfect situation for himself) and Quentin yes (I thought after last year that 2008 was a fluke, and see no reason to back off that now).

 

Underperformance is hard to predict, and I'd be more than willing to admit I might have got lucky with such predictions in this case. But at the end of the day, this offense is overall pretty close to what most people thought it would be.

 

"Most people" predicted that Andruw Jones, Mark Teahen, and Juan Pierre would kill this team's offensive production. They were wrong. Instead, Teahen has a respectable .340 OBP and Jones is sporting a remarkable .823 OPS, with solid defense to boot. After a slow start, Pierre is inching back towards his typical .280 BA/.330 OBP and already has 22 stolen bases. On the other hand, nobody predicted that Quentin, Beckham, and AJ would all be hitting around the Mendoza Line after two months.

 

[dyuen]

You actually expected four veterans to hit THIS far below their career numbers?

 

AJ - .604 OPS (career average .748)

 

Alexei - .651 OPS (career average .740)

 

Pierre - .589 OPS (career average .715)

 

Quentin - .723 OPS (career average .827)

 

You are right, we didn't expect these guys specifically to hit this poorly. I do think Pierre was predictable because he is not much as a hitter, and Alexei's history (albeit brief) has been that he starts slowly and heats up later. However, I think you should expect someone or sometwo to have poor seasons. Just like you can expect guys to have career seasons (Rios, Konerko). We may not know specifically who those guys are going to be, but it should be expected.

 

The problem is that when you have starters with limited potential or who just aren't that good like we do, you limit the scope of how good the offense can be because it requires that everyone have a normal or better than normal season. Instead of 9 guys that can contribute a positive season and who can make up for guys who are having off years, we only have 6 or 7. Thus, when one of the guys we count on to be positive offensive players sucks, there is not enough good hitters to pick up the slack.

 

Now suppose we had better players in the lineup besides Kotsay, Teahan, etc., maybe the other guys wouldn't be struggling as much due to less pressure, better lineup protection, better hitting situations... Sure thats just speculation but who knows?

 

All that being said, the SP has been suprisingly awful.

[WCSox]

The problem is that when you have starters with limited potential or who just aren't that good like we do, you limit the scope of how good the offense can be because it requires that everyone have a normal or better than normal season. Instead of 9 guys that can contribute a positive season and who can make up for guys who are having off years, we only have 6 or 7. Thus, when one of the guys we count on to be positive offensive players sucks, there is not enough good hitters to pick up the slack.

 

The Sox had JD, Thome, PK, Quentin, and (later) Rios occupying 5/9 of the lineup last year and they managed to score a whopping 724 runs.

 

Historically, the problem hasn't been the Sox having too many hitters with "limited potential" or "who just aren't that good." The problem has been a lack of production from veterans who are getting paid to hit at the .800 OPS+ level.

 

Now suppose we had better players in the lineup besides Kotsay, Teahan, etc., maybe the other guys wouldn't be struggling as much due to less pressure, better lineup protection, better hitting situations... Sure thats just speculation but who knows?

 

I have no idea why Kotsay has 135 PA and agree that he hinders our ability to score runs. But if you're going to call him out, you need to call out AJ and Alexei as well. Again, it's not just the players who are bad on paper.

 

As for Teahen, he was sporting a .340 OBP and 94 OPS+ before his injury. His defense is mediocre at best, but the notion that he's been a massive drag on the lineup this year is wrong.

 

[whitesoxfan101]

"Most people" predicted that Andruw Jones, Mark Teahen, and Juan Pierre would kill this team's offensive production. They were wrong. Instead, Teahen has a respectable .340 OBP and Jones is sporting a remarkable .823 OPS, with solid defense to boot. After a slow start, Pierre is inching back towards his typical .280 BA/.330 OBP and already has 22 stolen bases. On the other hand, nobody predicted that Quentin, Beckham, and AJ would all be hitting around the Mendoza Line after two months.

 

Andruw Jones is hitting .216 and has an OPS inflated by a red hot start, similarly to what he did last year. He's 16 for 85 since May started with an on base under .300 and a slugging percentage under .400. That is about as blatant an example of using stats to spin an argument as I've seen in a LONG time.

 

Mark Teahen is a 3rd basemen with a slugging percentage for the season under .400 who can't play defense. Thank God we gave him that extension for no reason! And Juan Pierre is a leadoff man with a .318 on base percentage, thank goodness we gave up a solid young pitcher like John Ely for him!

 

Beckham has sucked at pretty shocking levels though, I will give you that. Seriously.

[southsider2k5]

Andruw Jones is hitting .216 and has an OPS inflated by a red hot start, similarly to what he did last year. He's 16 for 85 since May started with an on base under .300 and a slugging percentage under .400. That is about as blatant an example of using stats to spin an argument as I've seen in a LONG time.

 

Mark Teahen is a 3rd basemen with a slugging percentage for the season under .400 who can't play defense. Thank God we gave him that extension for no reason! And Juan Pierre is a leadoff man with a .318 on base percentage, thank goodness we gave up a solid young pitcher like John Ely for him!

 

Beckham has sucked at pretty shocking levels though, I will give you that. Seriously.

 

I like the part where you called him out for using full season stats to hide a bad recent stretch, then used full season stats to hide recent good stretches.

[WCSox]

Andruw Jones is hitting .216 and has an OPS inflated by a red hot start, similarly to what he did last year. He's 16 for 85 since May started with an on base under .300 and a slugging percentage under .400. That is about as blatant an example of using stats to spin an argument as I've seen in a LONG time.

 

Dude, knock it off. Jones has been a significant offensive force for this team, and has been a stud for pretty much his entire career (when healthy). Jones' OPS and walk-off homers carry a lot more weight than your heavily biased opinion.

 

Mark Teahen is a 3rd basemen with a slugging percentage for the season under .400 who can't play defense. Thank God we gave him that extension for no reason! And Juan Pierre is a leadoff man with a .318 on base percentage, thank goodness we gave up a solid young pitcher like John Ely for him!

 

Never advocated extending Teahen, but his bat isn't nearly as bad as the mouth-foamers on this board suggest. The worst that you can say about him is that he lacks power for a 3B. If you want to play that game, Jones makes up for that as a part-time player.

Edited June 7, 2010 by WCSox

[whitesoxfan101]

Dude, knock it off. Jones has been a significant offensive force for this team, and has been a stud for pretty much his entire career (when healthy). Jones' OPS and walk-off homers carry a lot more weight than your heavily biased opinion.

 

 

 

Never advocated extending Teahen, but his bat isn't nearly as bad as the mouth-foamers on this board suggest. The worst that you can say about him is that he lacks power for a 3B. If you want to play that game, Jones makes up for that as a part-time player.

 

In regards to part 1, are you serious? He's been a terrible offensive player since May 1st. A hot April doesn't=significant offensive force. I can't even believe I'm having this argument about a guy that really has been a bad offensive player since 2006 ended.

 

As for Teahen, he's a 3rd basemen with no power and poor defense. To me, that's a problem, especially considering he's a career .331 OBP guy (with a whopping .340 in that category this year) and that's his best quality.

 

I like the part where you called him out for using full season stats to hide a bad recent stretch, then used full season stats to hide recent good stretches.

 

He is making mind numbingly ridiculous arguments, but if you want to attach to them as well, be my guest. To somehow defend Mark Teahen, Juan Pierre, and Andruw Jones performances right now as some sort of help is obnoxious. They've been mediocre, just like any reasonable person would expect. To say "people were wrong" to think they'd kill this teams offensive production is simply wrong.

Edited June 7, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[fathom]

In regards to part 1, are you serious? He's been a terrible offensive player since May 1st. A hot April doesn't=significant offensive force. I can't even believe I'm having this argument about a guy that really has been a bad offensive player since 2006 ended.

 

Jones has been worthless since his start, so much so that the Sox are extremely frustrated with his stubborness to make adjusments. No doubt in my mind he'll be traded away for virtually nothing, probably as soon as he hits #400.

[scenario]

I am a pretty optimistic guy. But I had a bad feeling about this offense from the get go. IMO, you simply can't put so many guys into a lineup simultaneously who are 'at-risk' for having sub-par seasons.

 

In general, I'm a KW fan, but just seems to me that he's hell bent on building teams that have to "exceed expectations" just to compete... in a relatively weak division. That may be fine for a small market team. But it shouldn't be the case when you have a $100M payroll.

 

 

 

[iamshack]

Jones has been worthless since his start, so much so that the Sox are extremely frustrated with his stubborness to make adjusments. No doubt in my mind he'll be traded away for virtually nothing, probably as soon as he hits #400.

Yeah, I was really excited to have him til we got to about May 10th. Then I started to wonder where Andruw Jones had gone. Basically at this point, IMO, he's a bench player and defensive replacement for Q.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah, I was really excited to have him til we got to about May 10th. Then I started to wonder where Andruw Jones had gone. Basically at this point, IMO, he's a bench player and defensive replacement for Q.

 

I don't think that it is odd that as soon as Jones was reported to have his first back spasms, his numbers went into the toilet.

[iamshack]

I am a pretty optimistic guy. But I had a bad feeling about this offense from the get go. IMO, you simply can't put so many guys into a lineup simultaneously who are 'at-risk' for having sub-par seasons.

 

In general, I'm a KW fan, but just seems to me that he's hell bent on building teams that have to "exceed expectations" just to compete... in a relatively weak division. That may be fine for a small market team. But it shouldn't be the case when you have a $100M payroll.

Well I think you have to look at how the team was built.

 

He sunk the majority of our money into the SP. It's true that the offense was a bit of a wing and a prayer, but given the capability of that pitching staff, I really thought his wing and a prayer would be plenty to get the job done.

 

The problem is the part of the club that was supposed to be it's strength has turned out to be it's biggest weakness...

[Chicago White Sox]

Yeah, I was really excited to have him til we got to about May 10th. Then I started to wonder where Andruw Jones had gone. Basically at this point, IMO, he's a bench player and defensive replacement for Q.

That may be the case, but we might as well throw him out there as much as possible and hope he gets hot. There is no reason to waste at-bats on Kotsay. We still might be able to salvage a reasonable prospect for Jones if he gets hot and a team with limited financial flexibility desperately needs power.

[southsider2k5]

Well I think you have to look at how the team was built.

 

He sunk the majority of our money into the SP. It's true that the offense was a bit of a wing and a prayer, but given the capability of that pitching staff, I really thought his wing and a prayer would be plenty to get the job done.

 

The problem is the part of the club that was supposed to be it's strength has turned out to be it's biggest weakness...

 

No doubt about it. If the starting pitching alone had been anywhere near where it was supposed to be, we are talking about who to add, not who to trade.

[scenario]

Well I think you have to look at how the team was built.

 

He sunk the majority of our money into the SP. It's true that the offense was a bit of a wing and a prayer, but given the capability of that pitching staff, I really thought his wing and a prayer would be plenty to get the job done.

 

The problem is the part of the club that was supposed to be it's strength has turned out to be it's biggest weakness...

 

The difference is that the pitching is talented enough to turn things around and be very competitive...

 

But the offense is middle of the pack at best even if they play well.

 

We were counting on the pitching to be outstanding and save us.

 

That's a bad position to start from.

[Balta1701]

The difference is that the pitching is talented enough to turn things around and be very competitive...

 

But the offense is middle of the pack at best even if they play well.

 

We were counting on the pitching to be outstanding and save us.

 

That's a bad position to start from.

How many teams reach the playoffs by being good at everything but not great at anything?

[iamshack]

The difference is that the pitching is talented enough to turn things around and be very competitive...

 

But the offense is middle of the pack at best even if they play well.

 

We were counting on the pitching to be outstanding and save us.

 

That's a bad position to start from.

I disagree. I think we would have added a bat had we been in contention and would have been in very good shape.

 

I'd much rather be working from a position of strong pitching than vice versa.

[iamshack]

That may be the case, but we might as well throw him out there as much as possible and hope he gets hot. There is no reason to waste at-bats on Kotsay. We still might be able to salvage a reasonable prospect for Jones if he gets hot and a team with limited financial flexibility desperately needs power.

Actually, he hasn't been playing all that much recently.

[Chicago White Sox]

Actually, he hasn't been playing all that much recently.

Who Kotsay? He's still started half the games in June so far. I don't see any benefit to playing him even that much as he's only taking away at-bats from two of our trading chips in Konerko and Jones.

[Balta1701]

Who Kotsay? He's still started half the games in June so far. I don't see any benefit to playing him even that much as he's only taking away at-bats from two of our trading chips in Konerko and Jones.

No, Jones is the one who hasn't been playing much recently.

[Chicago White Sox]

No, Jones is the one who hasn't been playing much recently.

That was the point of my initial comment about playing Jones more. I know he's been a little banged up, but once (or if) he's ready for more playing time, I don't want to see Kotsay getting in his way.