Joe Cowley says our season is over: do you agree?

[pktmotion]

That doesn't change the fact that the players have failed the organization, not the other way around.

 

I was agreeing with you. I was just presenting the first argument people run into when blaming players instead of coaches. To some degree it holds weight, but it boils down to this. People love simple answers. Half of the team is underperforming, half of the team won't get traded away because that's not a smart business decision. It's a complex problem, so an easy solution is to blame the manager.

 

But to some degree it's the right system. Guillen represents his players. If his players aren't getting it done, fair or not, Guillen takes the heat. He told KW this team was alright as it is. He was comfortable giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those AB's. And the whole rotating DH. Whether or not Ozzie, KW, or the players are held accountable is another question, but I'll say it again apathy is contagious. And sometimes it's confused for loyalty.

Edited June 5, 2010 by pktmotion

[caulfield12]

Yes, I was saying in my "alternative" universe theory where we stood pat last season (minus the Rios addition), somehow I have a feeling Mitchell would have emerged as a breakout star and our top prospect while lighting up the Southern League.

 

But alas, everything has gone wrong that could go wrong, almost.

[ThunderBolt]

I've been in KW's corner for a while, but i'm starting to think that if changes are to be made they need to be sweeping. I think it's time for the Rick Hahn era to start, an era that will hopefully usher in a more sabermetrically-inclined approach to running a baseball team.

[LittleHurt05]

Our rotation would be Danks, Buehrle, Floyd, Richard and Ely/Garcia

 

Buehrle & Floyd have ERAs over 4.50, Richard & Ely have only pitched in the NL West. How good do you think they would really end up?

[pktmotion]

Buehrle & Floyd have ERAs over 4.50, Richard & Ely have only pitched in the NL West. How good do you think they would really end up?

 

Thank you. But arguing with all these retrospective GMs is useless, since they ALL knew Peavy was terrible.

Edited June 5, 2010 by pktmotion

[iamshack]

1/3 of the way through the season and one 3 game winning streak, and only a couple 2 game winning streaks, and there are still people thinking remaining status quo can still result in a successful season? KW, OG and JR should be embarrassed.

I agree with WC....why are you so damn quick to blame the coaches and FO, when it's the players who are the ones not performing? All I heard you rag on Kenny about was Alex Rios, and how claiming him on waivers was an accident and a mistake and prohibited us from getting other FAs. Meanwhile, the guy has been one of the best players in ALL of baseball for the first 60 games and you're going to blame this on Kenny. Of course.

 

You also said Peavy was Kenny's best deal ever. Not many, if anyone, predicted Jake could be this bad. But KW should be embarrassed. Right. That's just hypocrisy.

 

The problem with this team is the veterans are not performing. The problem is not Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios, or Jake Peavy, or Andruw Jones, or Omar Vizquel, or Mark Kotsay, or even Mark Teahan. The problem is Mark, Gavin, Jake, Carlos, AJ, and Gordon.

 

And if you foresaw those guys all sucking, well kudos to you. You are a better GM than KW and have a better eye than Ozzie. Then you can say they should be embarrassed.

 

But I don't remember seeing anyone on this board say our problem would be starting pitching and a lack of offense from our core hitters.

 

 

 

 

 

[StrangeSox]

I agree with WC....why are you so damn quick to blame the coaches and FO, when it's the players who are the ones not performing? All I heard you rag on Kenny about was Alex Rios, and how claiming him on waivers was an accident and a mistake and prohibited us from getting other FAs. Meanwhile, the guy has been one of the best players in ALL of baseball for the first 60 games and you're going to blame this on Kenny. Of course.

 

You also said Peavy was Kenny's best deal ever. Not many, if anyone, predicted Jake could be this bad. But KW should be embarrassed. Right. That's just hypocrisy.

 

The problem with this team is the veterans are not performing. The problem is not Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios, or Jake Peavy, or Andruw Jones, or Omar Vizquel, or Mark Kotsay, or even Mark Teahan. The problem is Mark, Gavin, Jake, Carlos, AJ, and Gordon.

 

And if you foresaw those guys all sucking, well kudos to you. You are a better GM than KW and have a better eye than Ozzie. Then you can say they should be embarrassed.

 

But I don't remember seeing anyone on this board say our problem would be starting pitching and a lack of offense from our core hitters.

 

That part makes no sense. You say it's because veterans are not performing, but then you say 5 or 6 veterans who are not performing aren't the problem.

 

You list Jake Peavy as not a problem and as a problem. You list Carlos, Gavin and Gordon as part of the "veterans not performing" problem when none of them are really established veterans. And, yeah, having 20% of your roster be a bunch of underperforming veterans in Pierre, Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay and Teahan is definitely part of the problem.

 

[iamshack]

That part makes no sense. You say it's because veterans are not performing, but then you say 5 or 6 veterans who are not performing aren't the problem.

 

You list Jake Peavy as not a problem and as a problem. You list Carlos, Gavin and Gordon as part of the "veterans not performing" problem when none of them are really established veterans. And, yeah, having 20% of your roster be a bunch of underperforming veterans in Pierre, Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay and Teahan is definitely part of the problem.

Fair points.

 

It's early, and I was trying to point out DA's opinions as to Kenny and intermingle them into the success and failures of the team (as well as looking at players at the time the acquisitions were made by Kenny). Obviously that was a bit of a clusterf***.

 

The point I am trying to make about Jake Peavy is that it's difficult to fault the acquisition of Jake. I have a really hard time understanding criticism of that move, especially considering the way he pitched for us at the end of last season, or that you could have somehow foreseen him performing this poorly.

 

The general point I am making is the same as NSS has been making for weeks. The new acquisitions and the offseason Kenny had are not the problem. The problem is the core of the team is not performing. The players that no one was claiming needed to be jettisoned are those that are failing us. Not Kenny, not Ozzie, THE PLAYERS.

 

Did you see many posters calling for Mark or Gavin to get traded? Or that Jake would suck this bad? Or that Gordon would be this terrible? Or Carlos? Or AJ?

 

The problem I have is that you can complain all you want about the offseason Kenny had, but that really has not been the problem at all. Unless you were calling for a complete rebuild of this team, ripping apart the core and trading everyone, you were wrong, just like Kenny and Ozzie were.

[StrangeSox]

I agree with what you're saying generally, it's just that those two sentences contradicted themselves about three times.

 

I don't fault Kenny for the Peavy trade and never got on him for Rios. The problem has been under-achieving talent eg Buehrle, Floyd, Beckham, Alexi, AJ, Quentin and some crap in the pen.

 

But that doesn't excuse some of the moves like getting and extended Teahan, thinking Vizquel would be worth anything, trading for Pierre, etc. If you reverse those moves, this team is still mediocre, but they're still bad moves.

[ThunderBolt]

The facts are that if Ozzie had been running this team in a semi-competent fashion we could probably have a few more wins than we do have the moment. The lineups have been atrocious from spring on, the man has no idea how to manage the pitching staff this year, and the clubhouse clearly doesn’t buy what he’s selling anymore. IF he hadn't been put in charge of most of the personnel decisions this offseason, we could be competing in this division instead of floundering it. Instead, we took a great pitching staff coming into the year, and surrounded it with a bunch of guys whom you had to squint hard through the nostalgia to see any sort of positive impact coming into the year. Ozzie has demanded his share of responsibility for this mess by both his actions and his words, and I see no need to not give him his fair share.

[StrangeSox]

I'm no fan of Ozzie, but a few more wins really doesn't make a difference except for draft spot. Managerial moves or non-moves can't make up for a roster full of crap or under-performing players.

[iamshack]

I agree with what you're saying generally, it's just that those two sentences contradicted themselves about three times.

 

I don't fault Kenny for the Peavy trade and never got on him for Rios. The problem has been under-achieving talent eg Buehrle, Floyd, Beckham, Alexi, AJ, Quentin and some crap in the pen.

 

But that doesn't excuse some of the moves like getting and extended Teahan, thinking Vizquel would be worth anything, trading for Pierre, etc. If you reverse those moves, this team is still mediocre, but they're still bad moves.

I agree, but to be honest, there are really not many other moves that could have been made that were going to make a difference.

 

Let's face it, our big push came last season, when we acquired Peavy and Rios. Those two acquisitions were for the most part, supposed to give the team a huge lift this year. One has, and one has not.

 

By the time the offseason came, we were basically looking at being bit players seeking to supplement a nearly completed roster. The big additions had already been made.

 

 

[iamshack]

I'm no fan of Ozzie, but a few more wins really doesn't make a difference except for draft spot. Managerial moves or non-moves can't make up for a roster full of crap or under-performing players.

See, this IS NOT a roster full of crap.

 

This IS a roster full of under-performing players.

 

Which, IMO, is exactly where the blame lies - on our players. Not on the manager or the FO.

 

Now does that mean that the manager or the FO should ignore the fact that the players are underperforming and do nothing? Of course not. That is where they come into play. But they can't pitch, field or hit the ball for these guys.

 

[iamshack]

The facts are that if Ozzie had been running this team in a semi-competent fashion we could probably have a few more wins than we do have the moment. The lineups have been atrocious from spring on, the man has no idea how to manage the pitching staff this year, and the clubhouse clearly doesn’t buy what he’s selling anymore. IF he hadn't been put in charge of most of the personnel decisions this offseason, we could be competing in this division instead of floundering it. Instead, we took a great pitching staff coming into the year, and surrounded it with a bunch of guys whom you had to squint hard through the nostalgia to see any sort of positive impact coming into the year. Ozzie has demanded his share of responsibility for this mess by both his actions and his words, and I see no need to not give him his fair share.

I agree that some of the blame should be placed on Ozzie, because the roster was tweaked with his wants/desires in mind.

 

But come on, the entire pitching staff sucks outside of Matt Thornton. What is he supposed to do?

 

The guy can't win no matter what moves he makes lately. These players just can't get out of their own way. They flat-out suck.

[ThunderBolt]

I'm no fan of Ozzie, but a few more wins really doesn't make a difference except for draft spot. Managerial moves or non-moves can't make up for a roster full of crap or under-performing players.

Ozzie's made a mockery of baseball strategy this year. A few wins may not mean much this year, but in the long term we can’t have a guy make decisions like he does in charge of this ball club. 2005 was fantastic, wouldn’t trade it for all the world, remove that from the picture you have a manager who turns on players at the drop of the hat, nearly destroyed his clubhouse in 2008, seemingly lost complete control of it to the veterans in 2009, has one of the slowest hooks in the game, and runs his team out of the inning routinely. That’s not how a major league manager should operate.

[iamshack]

Ozzie's made a mockery of baseball strategy this year. A few wins may not mean much this year, but in the long term we can’t have a guy make decisions like he does in charge of this ball club. 2005 was fantastic, wouldn’t trade it for all the world, remove that from the picture you have a manager who turns on players at the drop of the hat, nearly destroyed his clubhouse in 2008, seemingly lost complete control of it to the veterans in 2009, has one of the slowest hooks in the game, and runs his team out of the inning routinely. That’s not how a major league manager should operate.

I think a lot of the moves you're criticizing is a result of the players not performing. When the players suck, he's forced to try all sorts of things to ferret out some level of success. The different lineups, trying to let his pitchers work out of their funks, trying ill-fated hit and runs, etc....these are a result of him trying to make something happen.

 

When the players perform well, you don't have to do a whole lot as a baseball manager.

[Dick Allen]

I agree with WC....why are you so damn quick to blame the coaches and FO, when it's the players who are the ones not performing? All I heard you rag on Kenny about was Alex Rios, and how claiming him on waivers was an accident and a mistake and prohibited us from getting other FAs. Meanwhile, the guy has been one of the best players in ALL of baseball for the first 60 games and you're going to blame this on Kenny. Of course.

 

You also said Peavy was Kenny's best deal ever. Not many, if anyone, predicted Jake could be this bad. But KW should be embarrassed. Right. That's just hypocrisy.

 

The problem with this team is the veterans are not performing. The problem is not Juan Pierre, or Alex Rios, or Jake Peavy, or Andruw Jones, or Omar Vizquel, or Mark Kotsay, or even Mark Teahan. The problem is Mark, Gavin, Jake, Carlos, AJ, and Gordon.

 

And if you foresaw those guys all sucking, well kudos to you. You are a better GM than KW and have a better eye than Ozzie. Then you can say they should be embarrassed.

 

But I don't remember seeing anyone on this board say our problem would be starting pitching and a lack of offense from our core hitters.

 

 

I stick up for Greg Walker more than any other poster on any board in existence. All you have to do is look at the Cubs under Rudy Jaramillo everyone's guru and notice the Cubs have scored fewer runs than the White Sox to realize the players are what makes the difference. I'm blaming KW, JR and OG because they are responsible for this awful roster. Its awful. I don't blame them for Peavy, I still think its KW's greatest trade, and I think eventually he'll come around. I also think Beckham will be just fine. It may take a while, but he'll be back. Pierre, Teahen, Kotsay, Jones, you don't win with those guys in your line up at this stage of their careers. Buehrle is going to have some struggles every year. It should be no shock. Danks has been down recently but overall he's about what you could have figured. Garcia has been about as good as you could expect. Its well documented how I don't like Gavin Floyd, but he struggled up to this point last year about as much as he did this year and no one seemed to blink an eye.

 

That said, I will agree even the most pessimistic wouldn't have thought the starting pitching would be this bad, I believe last in the AL in ERA, but there were more than a few posters who realized the offense was short even if Quentin was hitting and Beckham was hitting. But, KW didn't do his pitching staff any favors with Teahen at 3B, and even though he makes some spectacular plays, and baseball IQ-challenged SS in Alexei Ramirez. Quentin RF despite a nice catch the other night isn't exactly head and shoulders above Dye defensively. Hawk and Stone were praising Pierre's defense last night, I can't remember if it was before or after Hawk saying how Ron Kittle made himself a good defensive LF, and then Juan lets a foul ball drop. Pierre though has had his moments when he's made some nice plays. He's better than Pods in LF, but I don't know why he'd play LF and Jones DH.

 

The other thing is, when you have won consecutive games only 4 times on June 5th, you need to make changes somewhere. Pierre gets dumped as a leadoff man for a game or 2. Jenks loses the closer role for 24 hours. No one really is being held accountable. Its just waiting and waiting, and the "I believe in the talent" speech KW could have taped and used for several years. Something has to be done. I'm not calling for OG or KW to be fired, (although if the walked away, I don't think it would exactly hurt the White Sox) I'm calling on them to take action and do something about this boring team. At least try something different. If it doesn't work, so be it. The current formula isn't going to work.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dick Allen

[Dick Allen]

I think a lot of the moves you're criticizing is a result of the players not performing. When the players suck, he's forced to try all sorts of things to ferret out some level of success. The different lineups, trying to let his pitchers work out of their funks, trying ill-fated hit and runs, etc....these are a result of him trying to make something happen.

 

When the players perform well, you don't have to do a whole lot as a baseball manager.

He was given the team he wanted.

[iamshack]

I stick up for Greg Walker more than any other poster on any board in existence. All you have to do is look at the Cubs under Rudy Jaramillo everyone's guru and notice the Cubs have scored fewer runs than the White Sox to realize the players are what makes the difference. I'm blaming KW, JR and OG because they are responsible for this awful roster. Its awful. I don't blame them for Peavy, I still think its KW's greatest trade, and I think eventually he'll come around. I also think Beckham will be just fine. It may take a while, but he'll be back. Pierre, Teahen, Kotsay, Jones, you don't win with those guys in your line up at this stage of their careers. Buehrle is going to have some struggles every year. It should be no shock. Danks has been down recently but overall he's about what you could have figured. Garcia has been about as good as you could expect. Its well documented how I don't like Gavin Floyd, but he struggled up to this point last year about as much as he did this year and no one seemed to blink an eye.

 

That said, I will agree even the most pessimistic wouldn't have thought the starting pitching would be this bad, I believe last in the AL in ERA, but there were more than a few posters who realized the offense was short even if Quentin was hitting and Beckham was hitting. But, KW didn't do his pitching staff any favors with Teahen at 3B, and even though he makes some spectacular plays, and baseball IQ-challenged SS in Alexei Ramirez. Quentin RF despite a nice catch the other night isn't exactly head and shoulders above Dye defensively. Hawk and Stone were praising Pierre's defense last night, I can't remember if it was before or after Hawk saying how Ron Kittle made himself a good defensive LF, and then Juan lets a foul ball drop. Pierre though has had his moments when he's made some nice plays. He's better than Pods in LF, but I don't know why he'd play LF and Jones DH.

I noticed there is no mention of Alex Rios in your post.

 

DA, we're all frustrated....and there is LOTS of blame to go around...perhaps Kenny should have told Ozzie to shut his mouth and signed Johnny Damon or Nick Johnson or something. But apart from some other blockbuster move, I can't see ANYTHING KW could have done to have prevented this suckitude. Bottom line is, if you're veteran starting pitching sucks, you're going to suck. There is nothing else to it.

 

Say best case we would have kept Gordon at 3rd, signed Kelly Johnson to play second, signed Johnny Damon to play left...I mean, would we really be in much different of a position than we are now? I just don't see it...maybe we are 3-4 games better?

 

I blame the players and I blame Ozzie a bit for meddling in the roster decisions...

 

I dunno, maybe I will always just be a Kenny apologist...I love his aggressive nature and I generally see eye-to-eye with him. But I like this roster. This roster is good enough to win. The core players we were counting on just aren't performing worth a damn.

[iamshack]

He was given the team he wanted.

Oh I agree with you there....I do place some blame on Ozzie...but come on...this team isn't failing because of the players he wanted...how can you have watched this pitching staff and honestly believe that?

 

Steve Stone said it perfectly last night...when your starting pitching is putting up an ERA north of 5.20, it is nearly impossible to go on an extended winning streak.

 

I don't care who Ozzie would have wanted, unless he would have said "Trade Mark, Gavin and Jake and get me Fister, Silva, and bring that Ely kid up," there is simply no way he could have anticipated the starting pitching being this damn bad.

[klaus kinski]

Maybe the whole regime has just run its course

[Dick Allen]

I noticed there is no mention of Alex Rios in your post.

 

DA, we're all frustrated....and there is LOTS of blame to go around...perhaps Kenny should have told Ozzie to shut his mouth and signed Johnny Damon or Nick Johnson or something. But apart from some other blockbuster move, I can't see ANYTHING KW could have done to have prevented this suckitude. Bottom line is, if you're veteran starting pitching sucks, you're going to suck. There is nothing else to it.

 

Say best case we would have kept Gordon at 3rd, signed Kelly Johnson to play second, signed Johnny Damon to play left...I mean, would we really be in much different of a position than we are now? I just don't see it...maybe we are 3-4 games better?

 

I blame the players and I blame Ozzie a bit for meddling in the roster decisions...

 

I dunno, maybe I will always just be a Kenny apologist...I love his aggressive nature and I generally see eye-to-eye with him. But I like this roster. This roster is good enough to win. The core players we were counting on just aren't performing worth a damn.

Rios has been great, but he's signed for a long time. If he can keep it up, I was very wrong, he's a bargain. On the other hand, if he doesn't who knows. He could be the offensive equivalent to Javy Vazquez for all we know. But even his biggest admirers didn't see him doing this well, same with Konerko.

[iamshack]

Rios has been great, but he's signed for a long time. If he can keep it up, I was very wrong, he's a bargain. On the other hand, if he doesn't who knows. He could be the offensive equivalent to Javy Vazquez for all we know. But even his biggest admirers didn't see him doing this well, same with Konerko.

But the fact is he has performed very well much more often than not. He is a two-time All-Star and should make it three-time this year. He has all the tools, all the skills, to be a fantastic player for the next 3-4 years, while he is in the prime of his career. The biggest challenge for him was to shake himself out of his extended funk and put in the work (which was another alleged problem of his) to get his career back on track.

 

I think the odds of him performing up to and exceeding the terms of his contract are very good. He is the least of my worries.

 

What really worries me is Jake's contract.

[Dick Allen]

Oh I agree with you there....I do place some blame on Ozzie...but come on...this team isn't failing because of the players he wanted...how can you have watched this pitching staff and honestly believe that?

 

Steve Stone said it perfectly last night...when your starting pitching is putting up an ERA north of 5.20, it is nearly impossible to go on an extended winning streak.

 

I don't care who Ozzie would have wanted, unless he would have said "Trade Mark, Gavin and Jake and get me Fister, Silva, and bring that Ely kid up," there is simply no way he could have anticipated the starting pitching being this damn bad.

And I'm still waiting for the first Fire Don Cooper thread. Garcia has been better than anyone could have expected. Danks has been about what could be expected. Floyd's struggles in April and May are nothing new. Buehrle struggling perhaps is something new but he's had a lot of stretches like this during his career. Peavy is really the only one anyone should be shocked with.

 

Its obvious he wasn't going to be able to continue the dominance he had at the end of last year, but he has been pretty bad. KW also didn't do any favors for the pitching staff refusing to upgrade the defense significantly. If Andruw Jones is healthy enough to play, he should be in the OF for either Pierre or Quentin every one of his starts. He's not an everyday player, but he's significantly better defensively than either. I think the Sox actually caught a break, no pun intended with Teahen getting hurt. It will improve the defense.

 

There aren't many teams in the history of the game with great pitching and poor defense. Mediocre pitching becomes good pitching with good defense. Excellent pitching becomes mediocre pitching with bad defense. Not to blame the entire struggle of the pitching staff on the defense, you can't line guys up 10 rows in the bleachers. This team is stuck in between. They want to build around pitching but lack the defensive prowess. They want to build the offense around speed, but lack the on base ability across the board. Personally, I don't think KW was sold on this plan, and I think Ozzie got a little more of JR's ear due to last season. I know for a fact JR was pissed how it turned out.

[Dick Allen]

But the fact is he has performed very well much more often than not. He is a two-time All-Star and should make it three-time this year. He has all the tools, all the skills, to be a fantastic player for the next 3-4 years, while he is in the prime of his career. The biggest challenge for him was to shake himself out of his extended funk and put in the work (which was another alleged problem of his) to get his career back on track.

 

I think the odds of him performing up to and exceeding the terms of his contract are very good. He is the least of my worries.

 

What really worries me is Jake's contract.

 

Everything you say about Rios, you can say about Jake Peavy. He has performed very well more often than not. He's a 2 time all star, and a Cy Young award winner. He has all the tools and stills to be a fantastic player and is in the prime of his career. Why can't he shake himself out of his extended funk and get his career back on track? Its only been 8 or 9 bad starts, if that.