Joe Cowley says our season is over: do you agree?

[iamshack]

And I'm still waiting for the first Fire Don Cooper thread. Garcia has been better than anyone could have expected. Danks has been about what could be expected. Floyd's struggles in April and May are nothing new. Buehrle struggling perhaps is something new but he's had a lot of stretches like this during his career. Peavy is really the only one anyone should be shocked with.

 

Its obvious he wasn't going to be able to continue the dominance he had at the end of last year, but he has been pretty bad. KW also didn't do any favors for the pitching staff refusing to upgrade the defense significantly. If Andruw Jones is healthy enough to play, he should be in the OF for either Pierre or Quentin every one of his starts. He's not an everyday player, but he's significantly better defensively than either. I think the Sox actually caught a break, no pun intended with Teahen getting hurt. It will improve the defense.

 

There aren't many teams in the history of the game with great pitching and poor defense. Mediocre pitching becomes good pitching with good defense. Excellent pitching becomes mediocre pitching with bad defense. Not to blame the entire struggle of the pitching staff on the defense, you can't line guys up 10 rows in the bleachers. This team is stuck in between. They want to build around pitching but lack the defensive prowess. They want to build the offense around speed, but lack the on base ability across the board. Personally, I don't think KW was sold on this plan, and I think Ozzie got a little more of JR's ear due to last season. I know for a fact JR was pissed how it turned out.

Freddy is pitching exactly as I expected and went on record several times saying.

Danks has underperformed his statistics, if you ask me, but hey, I give him credit. And you're right, he is about where most expected him to be after yesterday's mediocre start.

Mark has sucked royally.

Gavin has sucked for longer than is to be expected. I agree, he is traditionally a slow-starter, but he is about 3-4 starts overdue here.

Jake has been bad in all but about 3 starts. And not just mediocre, but bad. Given that he was only 85% or so last year, I really expected him to pitch well this year. I'm shocked at his poor performance.

 

As for our defense, it has been subpar, I admit that. But our OF defense is actually pretty strong. Contrary to your belief, Juan has actually been very good in LF. Rios has been outstanding in center, and Jones has made almost every play. Carlos is below-average, and should be DHing more than he plays the field, but apparently Andruw is not healthy enough at this point in his career to be getting more starts in the field.

 

Teahan and Alexei have been the main culprits in the infield, but let's face it...our SP are giving up a lot of hits, especially Mark. Gavin has been the victim of the big inning, and Jake seems to struggle to get through the first inning on the right foot.

 

The defense has not done the SP a lot of favors, I agree with that. But it's a combination of failures...bad pitching combined with poor defense = lots of runs. Add that to an inconsistent (but improving) offense and you're never going to win many games in a row.

 

The SP should be picking up the defense though, IMO, not the other way around. The strength of this Club is supposed to be Mark/Gavin/Jake/John...and with the exception of John, they simply are not holding their weight. I blame them. Not Ozzie. Not Kenny. Not Jerry.

[iamshack]

Everything you say about Rios, you can say about Jake Peavy. He has performed very well more often than not. He's a 2 time all star, and a Cy Young award winner. He has all the tools and stills to be a fantastic player and is in the prime of his career. Why can't he shake himself out of his extended funk and get his career back on track? Its only been 8 or 9 bad starts, if that.

Oh you're absolutely right - I agree. And believe me, I sure hope he does. Heck, Barry Zito has done it. For Pete's sake, Carlos Silva has done it! I pray that Jake does too!

 

I just have more confidence in position players performing more to career norms than SPs.

[WCSox]

I was agreeing with you. I was just presenting the first argument people run into when blaming players instead of coaches. To some degree it holds weight, but it boils down to this. People love simple answers. Half of the team is underperforming, half of the team won't get traded away because that's not a smart business decision. It's a complex problem, so an easy solution is to blame the manager.

 

But to some degree it's the right system. Guillen represents his players. If his players aren't getting it done, fair or not, Guillen takes the heat. He told KW this team was alright as it is. He was comfortable giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those AB's. And the whole rotating DH. Whether or not Ozzie, KW, or the players are held accountable is another question, but I'll say it again apathy is contagious. And sometimes it's confused for loyalty.

 

There's a ridiculous amount of misplaced anger on this board. When Peavy, Floyd, Jenks, AJ, and Alexei all play like crap, it's Teahen, Pierre, Ozzie, and Kenny's fault.

 

That said, I agree that Ozzie and most of the coaching staff probably need to go. And it's not because they're incompetent (Ozzie's lineups notwithstanding). It's a combination of the fact that (1) the players aren't listening to them anymore and (2) they're not bringing much to the table anyway (Coop is the obvious exception). Ozzie does not manage/motivate players like Tony LaRussa. Walker doesn't develop hitters like Charlie Manuel. I'm not a fly on the wall in the Sox clubhouse, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the culture isn't about winning right now. With the way that these guys sleepwalked through last August and September, it's difficult to imagine that there's a sense of urgency to win. These guys are just showing up to collect a paycheck. And I agree that the easiest way to change that culture is to bring in a new coaching staff. It also means cutting the dead weight: veterans that aren't performing anymore. We saw it last year with JD and we'll see it again this year with AJ and Jenks, for starters.

 

BTW, Ozzie is not "giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those ABs" because those are the players that Ozzie wants. Those are the players that Kenny could afford this year whose skills happen to reflect the type of player that Ozzie likes. Otherwise, he'd be giving those at-bats to Damon or Matsui.

 

[fathom]

BTW, Ozzie is not "giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those ABs" because those are the players that Ozzie wants. Those are the players that Kenny could afford this year whose skills happen to reflect the type of player that Ozzie likes. Otherwise, he'd be giving those at-bats to Damon or Matsui.

 

I totally disagree with this. Ozzie and KW went out and got these players...they were two of the first signees in all of baseball this offseason. KW didn't wait until the last month of the offseason to sign these guys like what happens with a lot of washed-up veterans. Guys like J. Gomes are making about 300k more than Kotsay or Vizquel is.

[Dick Allen]

There's a ridiculous amount of misplaced anger on this board. When Peavy, Floyd, Jenks, AJ, and Alexei all play like crap, it's Teahen, Pierre, Ozzie, and Kenny's fault.

 

That said, I agree that Ozzie and most of the coaching staff probably need to go. And it's not because they're incompetent (Ozzie's lineups notwithstanding). It's a combination of the fact that (1) the players aren't listening to them anymore and (2) they're not bringing much to the table anyway (Coop is the obvious exception). Ozzie does not manage/motivate players like Tony LaRussa. Walker doesn't develop hitters like Charlie Manuel. I'm not a fly on the wall in the Sox clubhouse, but it's not much of a stretch to imagine that the culture isn't about winning right now. With the way that these guys sleepwalked through last August and September, it's difficult to imagine that there's a sense of urgency to win. These guys are just showing up to collect a paycheck. And I agree that the easiest way to change that culture is to bring in a new coaching staff. It also means cutting the dead weight: veterans that aren't performing anymore. We saw it last year with JD and we'll see it again this year with AJ and Jenks, for starters.

 

BTW, Ozzie is not "giving Kotsay and Vizquel all those ABs" because those are the players that Ozzie wants. Those are the players that Kenny could afford this year whose skills happen to reflect the type of player that Ozzie likes. Otherwise, he'd be giving those at-bats to Damon or Matsui.

 

 

How is Cooper the obvious exception? His charges have underperformed more than anyone. I don't think firing coaches or firing Ozzie and making Joey Cora the manager which is 99% likely if Ozzie ever left in the middle of a season is going to make 1 iota of a difference. Maybe making a trade or truly burying a non performer on the bench might change things. Its worth a try.

 

I'm pretty sick of seeing Kotsay in the 5 hole.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

I totally disagree with this. Ozzie and KW went out and got these players...they were two of the first signees in all of baseball this offseason. KW didn't wait until the last month of the offseason to sign these guys like what happens with a lot of washed-up veterans. Guys like J. Gomes are making about 300k more than Kotsay or Vizquel is.

Gomes is making less than Vizquel, actually. And he makes roughtly half of what Kotsay does.

Edited June 5, 2010 by iamshack

[WCSox]

How is Cooper the obvious exception? His charges have underperformed more than anyone.

 

I won't insult your intelligence by bringing up Cooper's track record with young pitchers and reclamation projects.

 

[Dick Allen]

I won't insult your intelligence by bringing up Cooper's track record with young pitchers and reclamation projects.

I think his record is a little overblown. I don't think he should be fired, but I think getting hammered and talking on the radio hasn't hurt him. He has been great for Matt Thornton, but other than Thornton and maybe Jenks, and I don't know how much of Jenks' success you could pin on Cooper, most of his success stories have been relatively short-lived. Danks and Floyd were top prospects for other organizations, and Floyd is either Cy Young or garbage depending on the start.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dick Allen

[fathom]

Gomes is making less than Vizquel, actually. And he makes roughtly half of what Kotsay does.

 

But I believe he was given easy incentives to reach. Love J. Gomes, fantastic energy player with some good skills.

[claydude14]

I will still watch the games and find in enjoyment in what I can, but f*** it's depressing to not even be able to pretend we are still in it like last year and it's only June. I'm seeing the team in D.C. in a few weeks and again in September in Boston, I wonder how different the roster will be.

[iamshack]

But I believe he was given easy incentives to reach. Love J. Gomes, fantastic energy player with some good skills.

He's always extremely streaky though.

[fathom]

He's always extremely streaky though.

 

But at least when he's on a hot streak, he can do a ton of damage. That's unlike some people on our team...aka Omar Vizquel!

[iamshack]

But at least when he's on a hot streak, he can do a ton of damage. That's unlike some people on our team...aka Omar Vizquel!

Andruw Jones is filling the same role and Gomes would have.

[fathom]

Andruw Jones is filling the same role and Gomes would have.

 

I'll take Gomes over Jones any day

[iamshack]

I'll take Gomes over Jones any day

Reasonable minds can disagree.

[fathom]

Reasonable minds can disagree.

 

It doesn't make sense to me to have a righty/lefty platoon where the righty hitter doesn't excel against LHP.

[iamshack]

It doesn't make sense to me to have a righty/lefty platoon where the righty hitter doesn't excel against LHP.

He's posted an OPS of .955 against LHP this season.

[WCSox]

I think his record is a little overblown. I don't think he should be fired, but I think getting hammered and talking on the radio hasn't hurt him. He has been great for Matt Thornton, but other than Thornton and maybe Jenks, and I don't know how much of Jenks' success you could pin on Cooper, most of his success stories have been relatively short-lived. Danks and Floyd were top prospects for other organizations, and Floyd is either Cy Young or garbage depending on the start.

 

Floyd went from terrible in Philly to an ERA+ of 119 and 115 in his last two seasons. That's a pretty significant turn-around. Contreras went from being the guy who crumbled under pressure in the spotlight to a dominant post-season pitcher under Coop (and an All-Star the following year). He also turned a post-shoulder-surgery junkball-throwing Freddy into a legit #4/#5 starter.

 

I'm not going to put Coop on the same level as Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone. But your characterization of him seems more driven by anger than logical analysis.

Edited June 5, 2010 by WCSox

[fathom]

He's posted an OPS of .955 against LHP this season.

 

That's better than I thought he's done, but Gomes has demolished lefties this season. Also, why couldn't Gomes/Jones split the 4th OF and DH position?

[iamshack]

That's better than I thought he's done, but Gomes has demolished lefties this season. Also, why couldn't Gomes/Jones split the 4th OF and DH position?

They could, but it's not really Kotsay you're looking to replace, it's Vizquel/Nix. Someone needs to be able to play 1b to backup Pauly....although I guess Teahan could do that too..

[Dick Allen]

Floyd went from terrible in Philly to an ERA+ of 119 and 115 in his last two seasons. That's a pretty significant turn-around. He also saved Contreras' major-league career and turned a post-shoulder-surgery junkball-throwing Freddy into a legit #4/#5 starter.

 

I'm not going to put Coop on the same level as Dave Duncan or Leo Mazzone. But your characterization of him seems more driven by anger than logical analysis.

There's no anger at all from my end. I would give El Duque the credit for Contreras more than Cooper. Contreras was so thrilled when the Colorado pitching coach made some adjustments and he was throwing 95 again. Jose actually has better numbers than Sergio Santos so far this season. Floyd has been wildly inconsistent. His ERA was nearly what it is right now a year ago, then he went on a tear, then he sucked again. He also was a top 5 pick in the draft, and I do agree you still have to develop them, but its not like his talent came out of nowhere. Cooper's transformation of Thornton should keep him on the Thornton family Christmas card and bonus list for the rest of his life. To give Cooper credit for Freddy is laughable, but if you must then you have to say Peavy and Floyd and Buehrle in 2010 is his fault. (I don't think it is BTW)

 

I'm not saying Cooper is a bad pitching coach or even mediocre. I just don't think he walks on water like some believe.

[fathom]

There's no anger at all from my end. I would give El Duque the credit for Contreras more than Cooper. Contreras was so thrilled when the Colorado pitching coach made some adjustments and he was throwing 95 again. Jose actually has better numbers than Sergio Santos so far this season. Floyd has been wildly inconsistent. His ERA was nearly what it is right now a year ago, then he went on a tear, then he sucked again. He also was a top 5 pick in the draft, and I do agree you still have to develop them, but its not like his talent came out of nowhere. Cooper's transformation of Thornton should keep him on the Thornton family Christmas card and bonus list for the rest of his life. To give Cooper credit for Freddy is laughable, but if you must then you have to say Peavy and Floyd and Buehrle in 2010 is his fault. (I don't think it is BTW)

 

I'm not saying Cooper is a bad pitching coach or even mediocre. I just don't think he walks on water like some believe.

 

The Cooper shine has completely worn off. As you said, his philosophy of throwing a little slower in order to gain control has been shown to not work for everyone. He's going to take a lot of heat if we continue to have a bottom 5 starting rotation that makes a gazillion dollars a year.

[WCSox]

There's no anger at all from my end. I would give El Duque the credit for Contreras more than Cooper. Contreras was so thrilled when the Colorado pitching coach made some adjustments and he was throwing 95 again. Jose actually has better numbers than Sergio Santos so far this season. Floyd has been wildly inconsistent. His ERA was nearly what it is right now a year ago, then he went on a tear, then he sucked again. He also was a top 5 pick in the draft, and I do agree you still have to develop them, but its not like his talent came out of nowhere. Cooper's transformation of Thornton should keep him on the Thornton family Christmas card and bonus list for the rest of his life. To give Cooper credit for Freddy is laughable, but if you must then you have to say Peavy and Floyd and Buehrle in 2010 is his fault. (I don't think it is BTW)

 

I'm not saying Cooper is a bad pitching coach or even mediocre. I just don't think he walks on water like some believe.

 

I never claimed that. But, despite your straw man arguments and silly downplaying of his achievements, Cooper's results are clearly there.

 

[iamshack]

The Cooper shine has completely worn off. As you said, his philosophy of throwing a little slower in order to gain control has been shown to not work for everyone. He's going to take a lot of heat if we continue to have a bottom 5 starting rotation that makes a gazillion dollars a year.

As he should.

[Dick Allen]

I never claimed that. But, despite your straw man arguments and silly downplaying of his achievements, Cooper's results are clearly there.

Since 2004 the White Sox team ERA AL rankings I started with 2004 because that was Greg Walker's first full year and he gets crap daily. When Walker took over in 2003 the team led the league in hitting the remainder of the season:

 

2004 11th

2005 1st

2006 10th

2007 12th

2008 6th

2009 2nd

2010 13th

 

You will use the argument they play in a bandbox, but most Sox pitchers do better at home than on the road.

 

White Sox team OPS rankings:

 

2004 4th

2005 8th

2006 3rd

2007 12th

2008 4th

2009 11th

2010 10th

 

Considering the White Sox spend a pretty penny on pitching, I don't think there's much of a difference. Again I'm not one for firing Cooper. I just wonder how he gets the free pass. Its not like Greg Walker hasn't had his successes with Dye, Konerko, Thome, Pods, Quentin, Rios is hitting this year. If he were a pitcher, Cooper is a genius, if he's a hitter he was always decent it has nothing to do with Walker.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Dick Allen