Army Corps declines to close Chicago shipping locks

[Rex Kickass]

The problem is, these programs have bloated the system so much that it will never recover.

 

I really don't understand what that refers to.

[kapkomet]

I really don't understand what that refers to.

 

It's exactly what Barackus the Great is doing. He's making the government so large, so intertwined with our daily lives that when anyone goes to cut anything, they'll scream just like you all are screaming now. OH THE TEACHERS. OH, NOT MY (insert social program here). The system CANNOT support what Democrats have created, and now someone comes in and cuts programs, you act like he's got blood on his hands. It's a fallacy of Rex, or something...

[Balta1701]

It's exactly what Barackus the Great is doing. He's making the government so large, so intertwined with our daily lives that when anyone goes to cut anything, they'll scream just like you all are screaming now. OH THE TEACHERS. OH, NOT MY (insert social program here). The system CANNOT support what Democrats have created, and now someone comes in and cuts programs, you act like he's got blood on his hands. It's a fallacy of Rex, or something...

So, your argument is that the federal government should be paying teacher's salaries and making layoff/firing decisions? I'm all about that.

[southsider2k5]

So, your argument is that the federal government should be paying teacher's salaries and making layoff/firing decisions? I'm all about that.

 

Unfortunately this has been the trend for a long time now, and all that has happened is schools have gotten worse.

[Balta1701]

Unfortunately this has been the trend for a long time now, and all that has happened is schools have gotten worse.

Serious, non-ranting question in reply...can you back up the statement that "Schools have gotten worse"?

 

I've gotten the impression from my readings that the U.S. education system has, at least going back to the 60's, ranked consistently at the middle or bottom of the pack of developed countries, but that it has sorta just stayed there in that area. It's produced good schools where property tax returns are high and crappy schools where they're low, with the occasional outlier, and every education innovation from New Math to Charter Schools has been a bandaid to cover that up.

 

Can you correct my impression and argue to me that the trend line is not flat but is instead down?

[kapkomet]

Serious, non-ranting question in reply...can you back up the statement that "Schools have gotten worse"?

 

I've gotten the impression from my readings that the U.S. education system has, at least going back to the 60's, ranked consistently at the middle or bottom of the pack of developed countries, but that it has sorta just stayed there in that area. It's produced good schools where property tax returns are high and crappy schools where they're low, with the occasional outlier, and every education innovation from New Math to Charter Schools has been a bandaid to cover that up.

 

Can you correct my impression and argue to me that the trend line is not flat but is instead down?

 

The divide of the "who has" and "who hasn't" is much, much worse now then it used to be. And, the teaching to testing and not to real learning is a humongous problem. I'd argue that it's one of the major downfalls of our society... because one generation to the next seem to lose all ability to think critically.

 

IMO, our society has been torn from within - the 8 minute show - commercial - 8 minute show - commercial - 30 second soundbyte - 30 second soundbyte - commercial - 5 minute show is a huge cause of it. Hardly anyone I know can think past 10 minutes on anything anymore.

[knightni]

They could just have a fishing bounty.

 

Every person with a fishing license from a state that borders a Great Lake gets paid $5 by the DNR of their state for every one that they catch and bring in. Then process them and donate the meat to homeless shelters and welfare families. I've heard that Asian Carp is pretty good tasting.

 

If humans are good at anything in the environment, it's over-fishing.

[Balta1701]

The divide of the "who has" and "who hasn't" is much, much worse now then it used to be. And, the teaching to testing and not to real learning is a humongous problem. I'd argue that it's one of the major downfalls of our society... because one generation to the next seem to lose all ability to think critically.

 

IMO, our society has been torn from within - the 8 minute show - commercial - 8 minute show - commercial - 30 second soundbyte - 30 second soundbyte - commercial - 5 minute show is a huge cause of it.

I'm not sure I can agree with you on the Have/have not divide, because, for example, back in the 1950's, the Have not version was a segregated school with no opportunity for anything. At least to my eyes we've swapped out racial segregation for economic segregation that just happens to mostly exclude the exact same groups.

 

I will agree with you that teaching to a test is a major problem, but I'm not sure how to deal with that one. Better tests don't work because the more complex the test is, the more it costs to produce and evaluate them, and you'll probably never get rid of that problem. Not testing doesn't work, because then you're not getting any benchmarks for students or teachers. I'm at a loss on that one.

Hardly anyone I know can think past 10 minutes on anything anymore.

I have an 86 page paper on hydrous melting of garnet peridotite I can offer you.

[Texsox]

I love how we go from Asian Carp to school reform

 

At least in the 8th grade Texas' TAKS test for History there is an emphasis on analysing information and drawing conclusions. The students are looking at maps, political cartoon, cause and effect and being asked for information. While not perfect, it is not as bad as it is widely perceived to be. The scope and sequence we follow is closly tied to the test, anything else would be unfair. Teaching X and testing for Y doesn't make sense. So "teaching to the test" makes for a better slogan than real criticism. We all had college profs that lectured on one thing and tested another, and we intuitivly knew that was unfair.

 

What you loose by having this standard end of year testing is variation from classroom to classroom. Every 8th grade History teacher in Texas covers pretty much the same material. While I would like to spend more time on the roll of Spanish explorers and Mexican influences (which is a big part of our local heritage) I really can't. There just isn't enough time. Sadly for students around the state and around the country, they will learn that America was started in 1607 at Jamestown or 1620 at Plymouth Rock. We have a sort of civil religion about our country's creation. Each November we retell this creation myth about Indians and our Pilgrams Fathers, leaving out the stealing, infliction of disease, etc.

 

So as a final thought, do you want the thousands of 8th grade US History teachers each teaching a slightly different version, or radically different version, or one cohesive, approved by the state, version? Do you want kids to pass Texsox's US History or Texas' US History?

 

 

[Balta1701]

Don't worry Tex, in a few months, the only history version you'll be allowed to print is the one approved by the Republican Party of Texas.

[Texsox]

Don't worry Tex, in a few months, the only history version you'll be allowed to print is the one approved by the Republican Party of Texas.

 

 

Not exactly, but you are close. They prescribe the minimum that will be covered. And it is embarrassing how political ideology drove the committee.

[kapkomet]

Not exactly, but you are close. They prescribe the minimum that will be covered. And it is embarrassing how political ideology drove the committee.

 

When, 10 years ago when the last set of books were written? 20 years ago? Now? The answer is yes to all, unfortunately.

[southsider2k5]

I love how we go from Asian Carp to school reform

 

At least in the 8th grade Texas' TAKS test for History there is an emphasis on analysing information and drawing conclusions. The students are looking at maps, political cartoon, cause and effect and being asked for information. While not perfect, it is not as bad as it is widely perceived to be. The scope and sequence we follow is closly tied to the test, anything else would be unfair. Teaching X and testing for Y doesn't make sense. So "teaching to the test" makes for a better slogan than real criticism. We all had college profs that lectured on one thing and tested another, and we intuitivly knew that was unfair.

 

What you loose by having this standard end of year testing is variation from classroom to classroom. Every 8th grade History teacher in Texas covers pretty much the same material. While I would like to spend more time on the roll of Spanish explorers and Mexican influences (which is a big part of our local heritage) I really can't. There just isn't enough time. Sadly for students around the state and around the country, they will learn that America was started in 1607 at Jamestown or 1620 at Plymouth Rock. We have a sort of civil religion about our country's creation. Each November we retell this creation myth about Indians and our Pilgrams Fathers, leaving out the stealing, infliction of disease, etc.

So as a final thought, do you want the thousands of 8th grade US History teachers each teaching a slightly different version, or radically different version, or one cohesive, approved by the state, version? Do you want kids to pass Texsox's US History or Texas' US History?

 

Its ironic we worry so much about what the rest of the world thinks of us and our history, but we aren't even going to let people learn their own history through the different eyes that it happened to.

[Texsox]

When, 10 years ago when the last set of books were written? 20 years ago? Now? The answer is yes to all, unfortunately.

 

 

Like in most businesses the largest customers influence the product the most. So the history books, for example, that will be used nationwide will be heavily influenced by Texas and California standards. On a sidenote to the sidenote, my district just receivedthe highest award from the state for financial responsibility. I'm not certain how valid of an award it is, but it does seem kind of cool. We are regarded as one of the best districts in the area, maybe this kind of confirms it.

[Balta1701]

So the history books, for example, that will be used nationwide will be heavily influenced by Texas and California standards.

Also worth noting...California's budgetary state right now is an epic disaster, and as such, the textbook purchases of its schools have been drastically curtailed since the housing bubble burst

[Texsox]

Also worth noting...California's budgetary state right now is an epic disaster, and as such, the textbook purchases of its schools have been drastically curtailed since the housing bubble burst

 

 

Making Texas Republicans even bigger customers.

[Rex Kickass]

Its ironic we worry so much about what the rest of the world thinks of us and our history, but we aren't even going to let people learn their own history through the different eyes that it happened to.

 

I think its always disappointing when you're replacing Thomas Jefferson with Phyllis Schafly.... but your mileage may vary.

[Balta1701]

This is going to be interesting. Basically the fun part is if Michigan, Wisconsin, and Indiana can show economic hardship and sucessfully sue to have the locks closed. I love a state versus state fight.

Link

Despite being rebuffed twice by the U.S. Supreme Court, five states filed suit Monday with a lower federal court demanding tougher federal and municipal action to prevent Asian carp from overrunning the Great Lakes and decimating their fishing industry.

 

Michigan, Wisconsin, Ohio, Minnesota and Pennsylvania said in their complaint the situation had become more dire since a live bighead carp was found last month in a Chicago-area waterway only 6 miles from Lake Michigan – well past an electric barrier designed to block the voracious fish's path.

 

"Asian carp will kill jobs and ruin our way of life," Michigan Attorney General Mike Cox said in a statement. "We cannot afford more bureaucratic delays – every action must be taken to protect the Great Lakes."

 

The suit was filed in U.S. District Court in northern Illinois. It accuses the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers and the Metropolitan Water Reclamation District of Greater Chicago of creating a public nuisance by operating locks, gates and other infrastructure through which the carp could enter the lakes.

 

That argument didn't convince the nation's highest court to order the locks closed earlier this year despite two requests from Michigan and other states. But the justices' rulings were procedural and did not deal with the merits of the case, Cox's spokeswoman Joy Yearout said.

 

The discovery of a 20-pound carp in Lake Calumet on Chicago's South Side might make a federal judge more inclined to rule favorably, said Nick Schroeck, executive director of the Great Lakes Environmental Law Center at Wayne State University. Previously, Michigan and the other states based their request largely on DNA evidence that critics dismissed as unreliable.

 

"It's easier to make the case that there's a public nuisance when you have this actual, live fish," Schroeck said.

[southsider2k5]

Link

 

Well to be fair, the federal government's response in both this and the gulf has been the same... cover their eyes and act like it doesn't exist.

[lostfan]

Its ironic we worry so much about what the rest of the world thinks of us and our history, but we aren't even going to let people learn their own history through the different eyes that it happened to.

Have you finished Lies My Teacher Told Me? It's like we're afraid to do that for some reason.

[southsider2k5]

Have you finished Lies My Teacher Told Me? It's like we're afraid to do that for some reason.

 

I am tearing it up. I just finished Indian history and am into black history. It is incredible. It kinda made me laugh at the debates over things like ID that go on while we still have history books teaching that Columbus discovered America.

[lostfan]

I am tearing it up. I just finished Indian history and am into black history. It is incredible. It kinda made me laugh at the debates over things like ID that go on while we still have history books teaching that Columbus discovered America.

He was saying how the more American history classes you take, the dumber you get, and that doesn't happen with math, science, language, etc. He really tore into the Columbus myth though. Columbus wasn't a hero... that's not really a strike against him because that was just standard colonial activity back then (kind of like how Lincoln was racist) but our society over the years turned him into a hero for pretty much no reason. And it's pretty unbelievable that I was once taught everyone thought the world was flat and this crazy guy Columbus thought the world was round and wanted to prove it. When in reality, globes were already invented by 1492. lol.

[southsider2k5]

He was saying how the more American history classes you take, the dumber you get, and that doesn't happen with math, science, language, etc. He really tore into the Columbus myth though. Columbus wasn't a hero... that's not really a strike against him because that was just standard colonial activity back then (kind of like how Lincoln was racist) but our society over the years turned him into a hero for pretty much no reason. And it's pretty unbelievable that I was once taught everyone thought the world was flat and this crazy guy Columbus thought the world was round and wanted to prove it. When in reality, globes were already invented by 1492. lol.

 

I actually knew lots of the Columbus stuff. I have even watched stuff on the History Channel about all of the different groups that probably "discovered" America before Columbus did, and stuff like the belief that CC probably had a map that one of his relatives passed down to him from a previous voyage to North America.

 

The ones that have really blown my mind are the things about how we were pretty much at war with the Indians for about 4 centuries, how much of the slave trade actually involved the Indians, and how much stuff the natives taught the idiot Europeans. I am about half a dozen pages into the black history stuff, and it is wild how still portray slavery as just kind of happening, but not really how it relates to anything and where it came from, not to mention how much the north was involved in it.

[lostfan]

I actually knew lots of the Columbus stuff. I have even watched stuff on the History Channel about all of the different groups that probably "discovered" America before Columbus did, and stuff like the belief that CC probably had a map that one of his relatives passed down to him from a previous voyage to North America.

 

The ones that have really blown my mind are the things about how we were pretty much at war with the Indians for about 4 centuries, how much of the slave trade actually involved the Indians, and how much stuff the natives taught the idiot Europeans. I am about half a dozen pages into the black history stuff, and it is wild how still portray slavery as just kind of happening, but not really how it relates to anything and where it came from, not to mention how much the north was involved in it.

Yeah the part that really caught my attention is how the Europeans weren't significantly more advanced than the Indians or the Africans at the time that whites first contacted North America. There was an exchange of technology between the Europeans and the Indians, but the narrative we're taught is that the technologically advanced Europeans came and tried to civilize the poor, backwards Indians, and they stubbornly didn't let that happen so the Europeans were forced to get rid of the savages. That's not how it happened at all. The Indians were just as civilized as the Europeans, the Founding Fathers actually used some concepts of liberty from Indian society for the Declaration of Independence. I guess things are pretty unequal when one side loses 95% of its population from smallpox.

 

The black history stuff is pretty fascinating too, I already knew most of the facts, but it's the way it's just kind of glossed over like slavery was just some sort of random historical event that has nothing to do with the next century that followed. Then they eventually say "oh, and blacks were treated kinda bad so the government decided to make whites treat them better in the 60s and everyone lived happily ever after."

Edited July 20, 2010 by lostfan

[southsider2k5]

Yeah the part that really caught my attention is how the Europeans weren't significantly more advanced than the Indians or the Africans at the time that whites first contacted North America. There was an exchange of technology between the Europeans and the Indians, but the narrative we're taught is that the technologically advanced Europeans came and tried to civilize the poor, backwards Indians, and they stubbornly didn't let that happen so the Europeans were forced to get rid of the savages. That's not how it happened at all. The Indians were just as civilized as the Europeans, the Founding Fathers actually used some concepts of liberty from Indian society for the Declaration of Independence. I guess things are pretty unequal when one side loses 95% of its population from smallpox.

 

The black history stuff is pretty fascinating too, I already knew most of the facts, but it's the way it's just kind of glossed over like slavery was just some sort of random historical event that has nothing to do with the next century that followed. Then they eventually say "oh, and blacks were treated kinda bad so the government decided to make whites treat them better in the 60s and everyone lived happily ever after."

 

It would have been a really interesting history here if it wasn't for smallpox. There is no way that we get the foothold here that we got if there was a significant amount of people around to offer some real resistance.