If You Want a Top Prospect

[Chicago White Sox]

Depending on the return...why on earth would these guys be on your untouchable list?!?!?

I don't consider these guys untouchable. I just don't think you'd get anything of value for them this year. Like I said, I'd rather hold onto them for another season and see what you got with them.

 

Also, we are going to have to keep a couple guys as the starting point for the lineup. Again, the guys I'd hold on to are Rios, Beckham, Quentin and Ramirez. I'd use Pierre and Teahen (assuming you can't move their contracts) as our temporary LF and 3B until Mitchell/Danks and Morel are ready. That leaves 1B, C and DH/RF to fill. I'd make sure to get a serious left-handed power bat for the middle of the order that can play 1B or RF via trade or free agency. I'd probably fill one spot with Viciedo and possibly C with Flowers depending on his turnaround. If not, I'd get a one year stopgap.

 

Pierre LF

Beckham 2B

Rios CF

Free Agent RF

Quentin DH

Viciedo 1B

Ramirez SS

Teahen 3B

Flowers C

 

I know that lineup is ugly, but we are going to have to add some youth to it in order to cut payroll. I think Viciedo and Flowers are the only guys on the offensive side with a shot of being ready at the beginning of 2011.

 

 

[iamshack]

I would have to be overwhelmed to trade Matt Thornton, but every team would love to have him in their pen in October. It would be very tempting to take on a good prospect.

Yeah, I'm thinking I would deal him and another piece for a can't miss type of prospect at a position of need.

 

I'm not sure that such a move is in the cards, but you never know...some GMs get a little crazy towards the end of July...

[iamshack]

There have been plenty of bargains available the past 2 offseasons the White Sox have passed on. Jenks will be gone one way or another as will Konerko. I know payroll will be slashed, but they will still have some available. Just those 2 is $20 million off the books.

 

I'm not expecting the White Sox to sign a premier free agent. They aren't going to win a bidding war over a player.

 

Dumping Thornton who is also a financial bargain, also means creating another gaping hole on the White Sox roster. The problem is no team is going to give their top prospect for a set up guy, and if you're going to their 7th or 8th prospect or some obscure A ball player, who cares. Keep the guy. The White Sox are definitely going to try to win in 2011. There isn't going to be some 3 or 4 year rebuilding plan some masochists dream of. I don't see how anyone could even get the impression the White Sox regime could rebuild a contending team by developing players.

Well, that $20 million is already committed to paying Rios and Peavy's salaries, as far as I can tell.

 

I agree again with most of what you're saying, but the bargains you're talking about are no sure thing to perform either. I really don't see us being able to build a roster that way that would have any better chance of winning than the one we have this year.

[Lemon_44]

The only guys who I think KW deals are the usual suspects in Konerko, AJ, Jenks, Putz, and Buehrle. That frees up 30+ mill for KW to re-stock next year. Jones and Kotsay won't be back either. I have no problem with Teahen manning 3B. He was just starting to hit and I think he'll be fine once he's settled in. Trades i'd like to see:

 

Jenks and some prospects to MIL for Corey Hart.

Buerhle to the Mets for Fernando Martinez. I'm not sure what the story is with that guy but i know he was a top prospect and hasn't put it together. He's still young and I don't know if the Mets have given up on him or not. I think Buerhle still has very good value, especially to a NL contender.

AJ to Texas for a prospect.

Konerko to Arizona. Maybe the Sox could pull a Connor Jackson for him with the way he's struggling.Arizona may not want to take on PK's contract unless they get back into it though. He'll probably end up in Anaheim for a prospect.

Send Putz back to Seattle for a prospect.

 

I also wouldn't rule out KW trying to acquire a high talent arm like he did with Peavy last year with an eye to the 2011 rotation. Maybe he makes a run at Oswalt or Haren. Even with staff looking good on paper in this past off season, he supposedly made a strong push for Halladay so he knows there's never enough pitching. Sign Adan Dunn as your 1 big FA acquisitiion.

 

You could have a 2001 lineup looking like:

1b- Dunn

2b-Beckham

SS-Alexei

3B-Teahan

LF- Pierre/ Martinez

CF- Rios

RF-Hart

C- Flowers

DH-Quentin

 

that lineup doesn't look a ton different than this years but any lineup that doesn't have Kotsay, Jones, Vizquel, or Nix in it most of the time has to be an improvement. The pitching staff could be:

 

Danks

Peavy

Floyd

Oswalt/ Haren

Hudson - Freddy, imo, is living on borrowed time but he'd also be in contention for the 5 spot.

 

Pena

Santos

Thornton

Linebrink

LH

longman- Torres??

 

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Well, that $20 million is already committed to paying Rios and Peavy's salaries, as far as I can tell.

 

I agree again with most of what you're saying, but the bargains you're talking about are no sure thing to perform either. I really don't see us being able to build a roster that way that would have any better chance of winning than the one we have this year.

So the key is to trade guys who do perform on the major league level for guys who never have, but might later on?

 

The logic sounds like Jerry Krause when he traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler. He said he Chandler had the potential to be a 20-10 guy. That was what Brand was.

 

Lets trade Matt Thornton for a couple of pitching prospects and hope some day one of them turns out to be as good as Thornton. Thornton is nails and is cheap. If someone really wants to overpay and give the Sox a guy who will be an All Star 3B for the next 10 years or something like that, fine trade him. But if its for Jordan Danks-like prospects, its silly.

[iamshack]

So the key is to trade guys who do perform on the major league level for guys who never have, but might later on?

 

The logic sounds like Jerry Krause when he traded Elton Brand for Tyson Chandler. He said he Chandler had the potential to be a 20-10 guy. That was what Brand was.

 

Lets trade Matt Thornton for a couple of pitching prospects and hope some day one of them turns out to be as good as Thornton. Thornton is nails and is cheap. If someone really wants to overpay and give the Sox a guy who will be an All Star 3B for the next 10 years or something like that, fine trade him. But if its for Jordan Danks-like prospects, its silly.

Well read what I posted, DA. I said I would deal him for a "can't miss" type of prospect.

 

Trust me, I fall on your side of the fence in terms of rebuilding. I like our core and I don't think anything is guaranteed to us by cashing in the pieces we do have for unknowns. But at some point you find yourself in a position where you aren't high on assets (players) or resources (cash) to go out and reload, and so you've got to trade something of value to get some back.

 

What you'd be trying to do is fill a larger need (an everyday young player) by outright winning the trade because of the situation the team trading for Thornton is in. If you can't do that with a high level of confidence, then yes, I agree with you, you just hold on to Matt.

[Chicago White Sox]

The problem is no team is going to give their top prospect for a set up guy, and if you're going to their 7th or 8th prospect or some obscure A ball player, who cares.

Why are these the only two options? If a team has a strong farm system, what's wrong with their 2nd or 3rd best prospect plus another guy in the top 10?

 

To be honest, I think a team with a need in their bullpen would give up a ton for Thornton. He's one of the best relievers in the game and can just flat out dominate. In the post-season, I think his value would be incredible, even as a setup man.

[flavum]

Absolutely, a team would pay dearly for Thornton. He could be a difference maker in the postseason. It doesn't matter that he's not a closer. Again...Yankees have Marte and Logan floating around there. You don't think they'd pay for Thornton to be a 7th/8th inning guy for Rivera?

[iamshack]

Absolutely, a team would pay dearly for Thornton. He could be a difference maker in the postseason. It doesn't matter that he's not a closer. Again...Yankees have Marte and Logan floating around there. You don't think they'd pay for Thornton to be a 7th/8th inning guy for Rivera?

It's not a question of will they pay, but how much?

 

I don't know, given the way the economics of the game have changed, that some team is going to want to give up their #1 or 2 prospect for a bullpen arm, no matter how good Matt is.

[Dick Allen]

Absolutely, a team would pay dearly for Thornton. He could be a difference maker in the postseason. It doesn't matter that he's not a closer. Again...Yankees have Marte and Logan floating around there. You don't think they'd pay for Thornton to be a 7th/8th inning guy for Rivera?

The White Sox would pay dearly not having him. Just take a peak at the lefties they have had the past several years.

[caulfield12]

Thornton could be almost like Zumaya (your 5th-8th inning situational "shut down" guy in critical situations) but significantly better and left-handed.

 

And cheap.

 

That has a TON of value to a lot of playoff-contending teams.

 

Whether KW pulls the trigger, it all depends on whether he believes Matt can do the job as closer for 2011. If it's not Thornton, it has to be Pena or Santos, two big if's, but better than risking Jenks for another year.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Thornton could be almost like Zumaya (your 5th-8th inning situational "shut down" guy in critical situations) but significantly better and left-handed.

 

And cheap.

 

That has a TON of value to a lot of playoff-contending teams.

 

Whether KW pulls the trigger, it all depends on whether he believes Matt can do the job as closer for 2011. If it's not Thornton, it has to be Pena or Santos, two big if's, but better than risking Jenks for another year.

Santos is a guy I would think about trading. His is a nice story, but its hard for me to believe he's not going to eventually struggle with his lack of experience, not that he wouldn't be able to eventually overcome the struggles, but he has no options left and he'd never clear waivers.

 

 

[caulfield12]

You have to keep pretty much everyone in the starting rotation (except Garcia is swapped for Hudson eventually) and you're overwhelmed with an offer on Danks (knowing you'll lose him at the end of his six year service period at the end of 2012).

 

Keep:

Ramirez

Quentin

Rios

Beckham

 

AJ Pierzynski is unlikely to be a long-term solution, so you MIGHT keep him around in 2011, but that's definitely the terminus of his Sox career.

 

I don't see a heckuva lot of difference with Flowers playing everyday (and significantly more upside) or even Castro/Lucy...plus you save $5 million or whatever.

 

Konerko gets flipped for Viciedo. Jordan Danks and Teahen share Kotsay's role.

 

You probably trade Putz and keep Pena, Santos and Thornton unless you're overwhelmed with a deal for Matty. Threets comes up to replace Williams. You're also stuck with one more year of Linebrink, unless you flat out release him, which I don't think they're quite ready to do that just yet...although he is nearing MacDougal territory quite soon.

 

Morel isn't going to be ready until at the earliest, mid-season 2011. Even then, it will take a lot to convince me he can hit for enough power to justify a line-up spot if we also have Viciedo and Flowers breaking into the line-up and no Andruw Jones.

 

We really need to take all the savings we can get from Jenks/Konerko/AJ/Putz/Vizquel/Kotsay et al and put it into a FA 3B as a stop-gap, a Tyler Wiggington/Miguel Tejada/Melvin Mora veteran type with some pop.

 

 

[iamshack]

Santos is a guy I would think about trading. His is a nice story, but its hard for me to believe he's not going to eventually struggle with his lack of experience, not that he wouldn't be able to eventually overcome the struggles, but he has no options left and he'd never clear waivers.

See, Santos is a case where I think we need to gamble and win, if we are going to make a run at being competitive in the near future. We're going to need guys like him to step up and provide high-level performance at low-cost because of the amount of $ we have locked up in veteran players.

 

Besides, due to his lack of experience, I am not sure what kind of return you're going to get on a guy from a team looking to add an arm for high-leverage playoff situations.

 

 

[spiderman]

If I'm Kenny Williams, I want to see Viciedo and Flowers for at least 3 full months to make a determination whether these 2 can be counted for next season (of course, there is never any certainty - see Gordan Beckham). If they don't trade A.J, let Flowers DH 4 times a week, and then use him as a cather once or twice a week, and, to play Viciedo, obviously, Konerko would need to be moved.

 

If the White Sox can find a young SS prospect in a trade, I'm in favor. Ramirez is just not that good, and the organization needs to have higher expectations than what they are getting out of that spot.

 

For next season, Mark Teahan has to be a backup. Why Kenny Williams gave him a 3 year deal will go down as an unsolved mystery, he is not a starting 3B....He can have some value as a backup player, but, thanks to Williams is being overpaid for that role.

 

In the OF, we can no longer depend on Carlos Quentin. Rios shoudl be our CF for years to come. The guy just looks so graceful as a player, and things seem to come so easily to him. Hopefully, his strong play continues. We're stuck with a mediocre hitter in Pierre.

 

So, for next season, I expect Konerko to have been traded for a decent prospect, but Kenny Williams has 3 months to decide if Viciedo and Flowers can be counted on at C/1B, and has gaping holes to address in RF, and 3B. He needs impact players, no more of the Mark Kotsay types as this is a BAD offense.

 

Pitching, I think the Sox should look to stay where they are for the most part. If someones comes along and wants to pay for Buehle, they have to consider that, but I don't expect that to happen. Floyd has been bad, but he's under contract, and has shown the ability to get major league hitters out. I think they need to figure out how to get him on track. Daniel Hudson hasn't been very good this season in the minors, but I'm still hopeful that he can become a starter, so that may be the one move I make - either let him come in as a starter for next season (give him time this year in the rotation), or let him start as a reliever next year.

 

Outside of that, Putz will likely be moved because of his contract, (1 year deal) for a prospect nobody has ever heard of, and Jenks won't be back so Santos needs (if they go with him) time as a closer this season. I suspect that Thornton will be kept in his 8th inning role and I don't want to move him.

 

So, for the pitching staff, I expect it to be relatively stable for next season, they may have to add another reliever in free agency, but I think what we have now will be here for next season despite how mediocre/bad the starting rotation has been.

 

Given the attendance drop, I suspect Williams will have to be extremely creative in addressing holes, and it's not likely to become a drastically improved offense next season, in fact, it may be about the same, but I do think he'll make some pretty interesting changes.

[caulfield12]

Santos is a guy I would think about trading. His is a nice story, but its hard for me to believe he's not going to eventually struggle with his lack of experience, not that he wouldn't be able to eventually overcome the struggles, but he has no options left and he'd never clear waivers.

 

Which is exactly why another team would be scared to part with a huge package to get him.

 

What would the White Sox give up to get, for example, Joel Zumaya?

 

Not very much, I'd think.

 

As a very cheap bullpen option who throws 96-98 and can be your possible solution to the Jenks mess (if Thornton/Pena both fail)...it would be pretty silly to trade him.

 

If we can keep Linebrink and Williams on our roster for god knows how long, we can keep Santos even when he goes through some inevitable struggles.

 

 

 

 

[3E8]

Santos simply cannot be traded now. He has three plus pitches and is under team control for five more years after 2010. Other teams can use Sergo's lack of experience on the mound to counteract any leverage we possibly have in trading him

[caulfield12]

If I'm Kenny Williams, I want to see Viciedo and Flowers for at least 3 full months to make a determination whether these 2 can be counted for next season (of course, there is never any certainty - see Gordan Beckham). If they don't trade A.J, let Flowers DH 4 times a week, and then use him as a cather once or twice a week, and, to play Viciedo, obviously, Konerko would need to be moved.

 

If the White Sox can find a young SS prospect in a trade, I'm in favor. Ramirez is just not that good, and the organization needs to have higher expectations than what they are getting out of that spot.

 

For next season, Mark Teahan has to be a backup. Why Kenny Williams gave him a 3 year deal will go down as an unsolved mystery, he is not a starting 3B....He can have some value as a backup player, but, thanks to Williams is being overpaid for that role.

 

In the OF, we can no longer depend on Carlos Quentin. Rios shoudl be our CF for years to come. The guy just looks so graceful as a player, and things seem to come so easily to him. Hopefully, his strong play continues. We're stuck with a mediocre hitter in Pierre.

 

So, for next season, I expect Konerko to have been traded for a decent prospect, but Kenny Williams has 3 months to decide if Viciedo and Flowers can be counted on at C/1B, and has gaping holes to address in RF, and 3B. He needs impact players, no more of the Mark Kotsay types as this is a BAD offense.

 

Pitching, I think the Sox should look to stay where they are for the most part. If someones comes along and wants to pay for Buehle, they have to consider that, but I don't expect that to happen. Floyd has been bad, but he's under contract, and has shown the ability to get major league hitters out. I think they need to figure out how to get him on track. Daniel Hudson hasn't been very good this season in the minors, but I'm still hopeful that he can become a starter, so that may be the one move I make - either let him come in as a starter for next season (give him time this year in the rotation), or let him start as a reliever next year.

 

Outside of that, Putz will likely be moved because of his contract, (1 year deal) for a prospect nobody has ever heard of, and Jenks won't be back so Santos needs (if they go with him) time as a closer this season. I suspect that Thornton will be kept in his 8th inning role and I don't want to move him.

 

So, for the pitching staff, I expect it to be relatively stable for next season, they may have to add another reliever in free agency, but I think what we have now will be here for next season despite how mediocre/bad the starting rotation has been.

 

Given the attendance drop, I suspect Williams will have to be extremely creative in addressing holes, and it's not likely to become a drastically improved offense next season, in fact, it may be about the same, but I do think he'll make some pretty interesting changes.

 

 

Ramirez has had nearly an 800 OPS since May 1st.

 

How many SS's can you find with that ability at such a cheap price as his contract currently pays him?

 

I think the list there is basically to be counted on a single hand, and none of those players are available for anything less than a Gordon Beckham or J. Danks or Thornton.

 

Just wait until Escobar is doing his Esteban Beltre/Caruso impression and you'll see what I mean.

 

 

[Dick Allen]

Which is exactly why another team would be scared to part with a huge package to get him.

 

What would the White Sox give up to get, for example, Joel Zumaya?

 

Not very much, I'd think.

 

As a very cheap bullpen option who throws 96-98 and can be your possible solution to the Jenks mess (if Thornton/Pena both fail)...it would be pretty silly to trade him.

 

If we can keep Linebrink and Williams on our roster for god knows how long, we can keep Santos even when he goes through some inevitable struggles.

Santos is starting to get hit around a little bit, and it could be others have a scouting report. As I said, he's a guy I would look to trade, but I wouldn't give up unless I was getting back a pretty useful part. I think the guy needs to pitch. Its a total catch 22 with him. You don't want to over extend him because he hasn't really pitched before. You don't want to put him into situations where he's in over his head, because it may shatter him. He seems to be known as the future closer, but I don't know how anyone can assume that right now. We don't know if he can handle the workload or the pressure that comes with it. We know he throws hard and has some nasty secondary pitches. Whether or not he can execute them with the game on the line against hitters who will be more familiar with him is a huge question.

[iamshack]

Ramirez has had nearly an 800 OPS since May 1st.

 

How many SS's can you find with that ability at such a cheap price as his contract currently pays him?

 

I think the list there is basically to be counted on a single hand, and none of those players are available for anything less than a Gordon Beckham or J. Danks or Thornton.

 

Just wait until Escobar is doing his Esteban Beltre/Caruso impression and you'll see what I mean.

Yeah, I agree....because of the position Alexei plays, as well as his relatively low pricetag, I just don't think he's going to be dealt unless a team offers a very close SS prospect in return for him. And I don't think Alexei merits that kind of return.

[Dick Allen]

Ramirez has had nearly an 800 OPS since May 1st.

 

How many SS's can you find with that ability at such a cheap price as his contract currently pays him?

 

I think the list there is basically to be counted on a single hand, and none of those players are available for anything less than a Gordon Beckham or J. Danks or Thornton.

 

Just wait until Escobar is doing his Esteban Beltre/Caruso impression and you'll see what I mean.

The problem with Ramirez is he's a stupid baseball player. When you build a team around pitching, a low baseball IQ at SS isn't wise, but he is a bargain right now. I think a less talented smarter SS who might not have the OPS of Ramirez or even the range may be a better fit for the White Sox. If Guillen or Vizquel can't get your head out of your ass as a major league SS, I think its in there permanently.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Dick Allen

[iamshack]

Santos is starting to get hit around a little bit, and it could be others have a scouting report. As I said, he's a guy I would look to trade, but I wouldn't give up unless I was getting back a pretty useful part. I think the guy needs to pitch. Its a total catch 22 with him. You don't want to over extend him because he hasn't really pitched before. You don't want to put him into situations where he's in over his head, because it may shatter him. He seems to be known as the future closer, but I don't know how anyone can assume that right now. We don't know if he can handle the workload or the pressure that comes with it. We know he throws hard and has some nasty secondary pitches. Whether or not he can execute them with the game on the line against hitters who will be more familiar with him is a huge question.

Well, this season should be perfect for us to find out then, since it's basically a lost year...hopefully once we get to late July or so we'll be able to use the rest of the games to see what some of these kids can do (Flowers/Hudson/Santos/Danks2, etc)

[iamshack]

The problem with Ramirez is he's a stupid baseball player. When you build a team around pitching, a low baseball IQ at SS isn't wise.

I think "stupid baseball player" is a bit of an overstatement....airhead or space cadet, maybe...but he makes up for a lot of that with his athleticism.

 

Do you really believe that negative outweighs all the positives he brings?

[Dick Allen]

Well, this season should be perfect for us to find out then, since it's basically a lost year...hopefully once we get to late July or so we'll be able to use the rest of the games to see what some of these kids can do (Flowers/Hudson/Santos/Danks2, etc)

Why do you want to watch Flowers and Danks strike out so much? That is what they are doing and what they will do if called up in July.

[iamshack]

Why do you want to watch Flowers and Danks strike out so much? That is what they are doing and what they will do if called up in July.

Because we will most likely be 48-66 at that point, so we may as well use the opportunity to evaluate our kids a bit.

 

You'd rather watch Donny Lucy and Ramon Castro?