If You Want a Top Prospect

[caulfield12]

That character thing again....

 

Not having Uribe, Crede, Rowand, Everett, Cabera...."winning" players.

[Balta1701]

What you are stating is that all losing teams look this way - you're making a correlation between losing and looking listless - but I'm saying I think there is something else at play here. Almost as though Kenny puts together teams with a certain character to them that seems to be unable to respond to challenges or to rally the troops or to pounce on an opportunity.

I see what you're saying, but I believe it's wrong.

[southsider2k5]

Santos is a guy I would think about trading. His is a nice story, but its hard for me to believe he's not going to eventually struggle with his lack of experience, not that he wouldn't be able to eventually overcome the struggles, but he has no options left and he'd never clear waivers.

 

That makes no sense to me. If we trade Santos, we are going to acquire a guy that has a lack of experience and struggles to overcome as they learn at the major league level. We own Santos for six years. There is no way he goes anywhere unless a huge name is traded for.

[Balta1701]

That makes no sense to me. If we trade Santos, we are going to acquire a guy that has a lack of experience and struggles to overcome as they learn at the major league level. We own Santos for six years. There is no way he goes anywhere unless a huge name is traded for.

If we were 1 player away from winning the division this year, and that player was someone like a closer or a starting OF, whatever, then dealing Santos to bring that guy in would make sense.

 

Anyone think we're 1 player away?

[WCSox]

I think you just, whether you like it or not, sorta admitted that I'm right; this is just how teams look once things go bad. They start looking lazy. Tired. Like they don't care.

 

Steff made this comment about three or four years ago. And history has pretty much corroborated it.

 

[iamshack]

Steff made this comment about three or four years ago. And history has pretty much corroborated it.

This is exactly my question though....are you telling me every roster we bring in doesn't care?

[Balta1701]

This is exactly my question though....are you telling me every roster we bring in doesn't care?

I get the impression that there's only a few types of rosters that look like they care a ton even if they're losing. A team with a lot of young players who also have good speed and make a lot of aggressive mistakes on the basepaths might still look like they care.

 

If a bunch of 23 year olds were making the number of aggressive baserunning mistakes this team has made this year, they'd look like they cared. If a 22 year old had tried to bunt for a base hit 20 times, hey, he's trying to make stuff happen.

[iamshack]

I get the impression that there's only a few types of rosters that look like they care a ton even if they're losing. A team with a lot of young players who also have good speed and make a lot of aggressive mistakes on the basepaths might still look like they care.

 

If a bunch of 23 year olds were making the number of aggressive baserunning mistakes this team has made this year, they'd look like they cared. If a 22 year old had tried to bunt for a base hit 20 times, hey, he's trying to make stuff happen.

I'm not talking about individual plays in the field as much as I am talking about responding to challenges as a team. Bouncing back and winning games you must win. Putting together a streak down the stretch.

 

I believe we've had more talent on our rosters than our record over the last 10 years would indicate.

 

Kenny has said he is befuddled as well. I know the Hawkeroo is. Maybe I'm just drinking the same cool-aid.

 

But when we're talking about a lineup of Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee...losing to young Cleveland and Minny teams with rosters I can hardly even recall....I dunno..

[Buehrlesque]

What I'm saying is that since 2001, I have liked the rosters KW has put together. They have been very good teams on paper. Unfortunately, it seems as though they have all, outside of maybe 2005 and until the ASB of 2006, underperformed. Even when they were given chance after chance to get back into the thick of things because of a weak division, they laid down like lame dogs and went quietly into the night. They have lost to inferior competition year after year, despite having different rosters, different leaders, different managers, different coaching staffs.

 

What you are stating is that all losing teams look this way - you're making a correlation between losing and looking listless - but I'm saying I think there is something else at play here. Almost as though Kenny puts together teams with a certain character to them that seems to be unable to respond to challenges or to rally the troops or to pounce on an opportunity.

This is so soooo true. KW's teams, for whatever reasons, rarely live up to expectations. When there are no (national) expectations, like '05 and '08, they seem to play better with the pressure off. When big things are expected, they just don't produce. The talent on the '03, '06, and '09 (second half) rosters should have produced much better results. What could the X factor be that causes that underachievement? KW/OG? Leadership/attitude of Konerko? Is there even any common factor that contributes to it?

[caulfield12]

I'm not talking about individual plays in the field as much as I am talking about responding to challenges as a team. Bouncing back and winning games you must win. Putting together a streak down the stretch.

 

I believe we've had more talent on our rosters than our record over the last 10 years would indicate.

 

Kenny has said he is befuddled as well. I know the Hawkeroo is. Maybe I'm just drinking the same cool-aid.

 

But when we're talking about a lineup of Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee...losing to young Cleveland and Minny teams with rosters I can hardly even recall....I dunno..

 

Umm....Torri Hunter, Shannon Stewart, Jacque Jones, Matt LeCroy, Denny Hocking, Hawkins, Romero, Guardado, Koskie, Guzman, Rivas, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Santana, Radke, David Ortiz.

[WCSox]

This is exactly my question though....are you telling me every roster we bring in doesn't care?

 

What Steff essentially said back in '06 or '07 was that this team was "satisfied" with their rings and lacked the hunger to win again. I don't know how accurate that information is, but my understanding is that she knew some people in or close to the organization at the time, so I took her opinion as more than speculation.

 

How that would translate into '08-'10 would likely be via a clubhouse culture of lethargy and a satisfaction of playing well enough to continue collecting a paycheck. This is pure speculation on my part, but it's difficult to interpret the way that this team folded last year as anything else. Now, that doesn't mean that every player on the roster lacks the drive to put in 110% every day, but enough of them do that it affects everybody. And this is no different from any work place where a bad atmosphere negatively affects productivity.

 

[Balta1701]

I'm not talking about individual plays in the field as much as I am talking about responding to challenges as a team. Bouncing back and winning games you must win. Putting together a streak down the stretch.

 

I believe we've had more talent on our rosters than our record over the last 10 years would indicate.

 

Kenny has said he is befuddled as well. I know the Hawkeroo is. Maybe I'm just drinking the same cool-aid.

 

But when we're talking about a lineup of Frank Thomas, Magglio Ordonez, Carlos Lee...losing to young Cleveland and Minny teams with rosters I can hardly even recall....I dunno..

But we've come right back to my point again...

 

Teams that aren't winning don't put together a streak down the stretch.

 

On that Frank, Mags, Carlos lineup...look at how the years went. In 2003, we genuinely got beat, but Frank was no longer the hitter he once was, and that was the year Konerko was awful and recovering from that foot injury. In 2004, Frank and Ordonez were injured most of the year. 2002, Frank only put up an .834 OPS and our starting rotation was Buehrle, Garland, Danny Wright, Gary Glover, Todd Ritchie, and then a handful of starts from guys like Rauch.

[iamshack]

Umm....Torri Hunter, Shannon Stewart, Jacque Jones, Matt LeCroy, Denny Hocking, Hawkins, Romero, Guardado, Koskie, Guzman, Rivas, Mientkiewicz, AJ, Santana, Radke, David Ortiz.

Are you serious? Matt LeCroy and Denny Hocking? You're going to name those guys and argue that those Twins teams were better than us?

[Balta1701]

Are you serious? Matt LeCroy and Denny Hocking? You're going to name those guys and argue that those Twins teams were better than us?

I guess if there's a single thing you want to say the Sox have done too much, it's rely on guys who are either up there in years or injury risks...Thomas, Thome, Dye, Quentin, Jenks, Contreras, David Wells, to be some of our biggest producers at their positions, and then done so with no real backup plan if they fail.

 

My argument against that though is...if your star doesn't produce, you're not going to win.

[iamshack]

But we've come right back to my point again...

 

Teams that aren't winning don't put together a streak down the stretch.

 

On that Frank, Mags, Carlos lineup...look at how the years went. In 2003, we genuinely got beat, but Frank was no longer the hitter he once was, and that was the year Konerko was awful and recovering from that foot injury. In 2004, Frank and Ordonez were injured most of the year. 2002, Frank only put up an .834 OPS and our starting rotation was Buehrle, Garland, Danny Wright, Gary Glover, Todd Ritchie, and then a handful of starts from guys like Rauch.

No, we're not, Balta. You're mistaking correlation for causality. You're simply working backwards and assuming losing teams correlate with dead-men walking, which is extraordinarily simple to do.

 

[Leonard Zelig]

If we were 1 player away from winning the division this year, and that player was someone like a closer or a starting OF, whatever, then dealing Santos to bring that guy in would make sense.

 

Anyone think we're 1 player away?

 

If that player is Bill Brasky.

[Balta1701]

For a nice comparison of how teams look when they're struggling, look at these Indians. Hawk's complimenting them, calling them Grinders right now, because they're fighting hard against us and beating us up.

 

2 weeks ago, one of their announcers lost it and gave an incredible rant about how terrible his team was and how they stank and didn't care.

 

When you're losing badly, that's how you look.

 

[iamshack]

For a nice comparison of how teams look when they're struggling, look at these Indians. Hawk's complimenting them, calling them Grinders right now, because they're fighting hard against us and beating us up.

 

2 weeks ago, one of their announcers lost it and gave an incredible rant about how terrible his team was and how they stank and didn't care.

 

When you're losing badly, that's how you look.

I'm talking about a period of 10 years almost...not 2 weeks.

[chw42]

Did that dude get fired?

[Balta1701]

I'm talking about a period of 10 years almost...not 2 weeks.

Cleveland's had just as many playoff appearances as us since 2002.

[Balta1701]

Did that dude get fired?

Nope

[iamshack]

Cleveland's had just as many playoff appearances as us since 2002.

Compare their payroll to ours since 2002.

[southsider2k5]

Compare their payroll to ours since 2002.

 

I'm guessing their record over that time reflects that.

[iamshack]

I'm guessing their record over that time reflects that.

Which is why comparing their playoff appearances to ours over the same period is a pointless exercise.

[Balta1701]

Which is why comparing their playoff appearances to ours over the same period is a pointless exercise.

But ya know what? They've had almost as many seasons where they thought they had a shot that their team fell apart completely as we have, because they had a boatload of young guys. 2004, 2005, 2006, 2008, 2009. Sizemore, Hafner, Peralta, Carmona imploding, for example.