If You Want a Top Prospect

[Dick Allen]

I think "stupid baseball player" is a bit of an overstatement....airhead or space cadet, maybe...but he makes up for a lot of that with his athleticism.

 

Do you really believe that negative outweighs all the positives he brings?

As I said he's a bargain, but he's not as valuable as his OPS would lead you to believe. Throwing out runners is almost impossible on a fairly close play when he's covering because he gets so far in front of second base. His positioning still leaves a lot to be desired, although I can't see where the dugout can't get his attention and tell him to move. He doesn't situationally hit. If there's a guy on second and nobody out, he's not looking or thinking right side. Konerko saved him from a 40+ errors season last year, and probably has saved him 6 or 7 additional errors this year with horrific lazy throws. If the Sox had better hitters at 3B and DH, they could easily afford a lesser hitter at SS. Their pitching staff would be much better off.

 

I wouldn't give him away. I just wish the Sox played him somewhere other than SS, even with his occassional spectacular play.

[Dick Allen]

Because we will most likely be 48-66 at that point, so we may as well use the opportunity to evaluate our kids a bit.

 

You'd rather watch Donny Lucy and Ramon Castro?

Like Owens and Fields were evaluated in 2007?

 

Flowers and Danks should at least show they are ready to play in the big leagues before getting an extended look. They have been terrible in AAA. If you already know they cannot succeed, it does no good to call them up.

[fathom]

Changed his name to Jordan Davis, and no one would want Danks 2 to be called up. He's closer to fizzling out than he is making the majors.

[iamshack]

Ok, so you two are advocating we don't bring anyone up and just play out the second half of a terrible season with the same guys that are failing now.

 

What the hell does that accomplish?

[Chicago White Sox]

Why do you want to watch Flowers and Danks strike out so much? That is what they are doing and what they will do if called up in July.

I agree completely on Danks. I think bringing him up this season would be awful for his development. In my opinion, he's going to need another full season in AAA before deciding if he's a long-term fit as starting or backup outfielder.

 

On the other hand, I think Flowers is going to rebound from a terrible May. He had a nice start to the season and I have a feeling he made too many changes to his swing all at once in May. No doubt he strikes out a lot, but he's also had success at every level prior to this year. His average will take a significant hit if he's called up this season, but I think that will improve over-time by slowly implementing small changes to his swing. His power and OBP numbers should still be of some value to the team.

[fathom]

Ok, so you two are advocating we don't bring anyone up and just play out the second half of a terrible season with the same guys that are failing now.

 

What the hell does that accomplish?

 

I've been on record saying I want Flowers to get called up to see if he has any prayer of hitting at this level. Also, if the Sox do trade Konerko, they'll promote Viciedo to play 1B. I want to see Hudson in the rotation ASAP, as that would mean we were able to unload Garcia or Buehrle.

[Dick Allen]

Ok, so you two are advocating we don't bring anyone up and just play out the second half of a terrible season with the same guys that are failing now.

 

What the hell does that accomplish?

If Flowers gets back on track, call him up, but calling him up now would be like sending Lindsay Lohan into a room filled with vodka and cocaine. There would be nothing to evaluate. You already know the result.

[iamshack]

If Flowers gets back on track, call him up, but calling him up now would be like sending Lindsay Lohan into a room filled with vodka and cocaine. There would be nothing to evaluate. You already know the result.

Well I'm not saying bring these guys up now. I'm saying bring them up in late July.

 

And I don't care who they bring up...whatever guys are the most ready, bring them up. That's all I'm saying.

[fathom]

You know what's more important that calling up prospects right now? Getting a new manager and hitting coach in place to see if they can have a positive impact on guys like Quentin and Beckham.

[Dick Allen]

Well I'm not saying bring these guys up now. I'm saying bring them up in late July.

 

And I don't care who they bring up...whatever guys are the most ready, bring them up. That's all I'm saying.

If players merit a call up, I with you. If they don't, play out the string with what you have. I'm sure we will see Viciedo in Chicago this year, and I'm pretty sure Pauly will be gone by August unless something unexpected like winning starts happening.

[iamshack]

You know what's more important that calling up prospects right now? Getting a new manager and hitting coach in place to see if they can have a positive impact on guys like Quentin and Beckham.

I don't know how you can fault the way Ozzie has handled either of them. They've both gotten EVERY opportunity to play even though they have both been big buckets of suck all year.

 

They seemed to do just fine with Ozzie as their manager when they were hitting well, so I don't see how he has anything to do with this.

 

Walker on the other hand, I don't care if they fire him or not. I don't know enough about hitting professionally to know if anyone else would make a difference or not.

[fathom]

I don't know how you can fault the way Ozzie has handled either of them. They've both gotten EVERY opportunity to play even though they have both been big buckets of suck all year.

 

They seemed to do just fine with Ozzie as their manager when they were hitting well, so I don't see how he has anything to do with this.

 

Walker on the other hand, I don't care if they fire him or not. I don't know enough about hitting professionally to know if anyone else would make a difference or not.

 

Well, according to Walker, both Quentin and Beckham are playing extremely tight. Walker said all the players are dealing with such anxiety on the field. Isn't Ozzie responsible for setting a good environment where these players have fun? One of the pro-Ozzie arguments was always that he was a good motivator and created a loose environment, but that's obviously not taking place this season.

[iamshack]

Well, according to Walker, both Quentin and Beckham are playing extremely tight. Walker said all the players are dealing with such anxiety on the field. Isn't Ozzie responsible for setting a good environment where these players have fun? One of the pro-Ozzie arguments was always that he was a good motivator and created a loose environment, but that's obviously not taking place this season.

That's taking place because they flat-out suck and never win.

 

It doesn't matter what Ozzie says. They are adults, and they know that in the real world, when you don't perform at your job, bad s*** happens.

 

If you can't stay loose under Ozzie, who has repeatedly put them on the lineup card and does everything he can to be the story instead of his players, then I don't know who you can play for.

 

The facts are the facts...no matter how much Ozzie tries to tell them to relax, the buck eventually stops somewhere, and they are fully aware of that. That's what's making them tight, not the clubhouse atmosphere.

[fathom]

The facts are the facts...no matter how much Ozzie tries to tell them to relax, the buck eventually stops somewhere, and they are fully aware of that. That's what's making them tight, not the clubhouse atmosphere.

 

So we have an entire team full of players that need a psychologist? That's basically what Walker said. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am very cautious about unloading all of our players before making the obvious changes in firing Ozzie and Walker.

[iamshack]

So we have an entire team full of players that need a psychologist? That's basically what Walker said. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am very cautious about unloading all of our players before making the obvious changes in firing Ozzie and Walker.

Well, you're a long-time fan, just as I am. This is something that has seemingly plagued us since well-before Ozzie and Walk got here. The 2001-2004 teams experienced the same kind of lacksidasical, underperforming attitude that some of these teams have under Ozzie.

 

Maybe it's the way Kenny builds teams, I don't know.

 

I always love his teams on paper but they rarely seem to have a fire about them to where they actually outperform their talent. 2005 was obviously the exception.

 

We always seem to be losing games we should be winning.

[fathom]

Well, you're a long-time fan, just as I am. This is something that has seemingly plagued us since well-before Ozzie and Walk got here. The 2001-2004 teams experienced the same kind of lacksidasical, underperforming attitude that some of these teams have under Ozzie.

 

Maybe it's the way Kenny builds teams, I don't know.

 

I always love his teams on paper but they rarely seem to have a fire about them to where they actually outperform their talent. 2005 was obviously the exception.

 

We always seem to be losing games we should be winning.

 

Completely agree, and the older/wiser I get, the more I appreciate 2005.

[iamshack]

Completely agree, and the older/wiser I get, the more I appreciate 2005.

To me, it's guys like Konerko, Ordonez and Dye that just seem unaffected by anything going on except for what they are doing. We always seem to have this quiet professionalism about us that is fine when things are going well, but completely ineffective when things need to be shaken up or the troops need to be rallied.

[WCSox]

Which is exactly why another team would be scared to part with a huge package to get him.

 

Yeah, I agree that no team is going to give up much for Santos. Dude wasn't even a pitcher until last season, and has no options left.

 

If we're going to trade bullpen talent, Putz and Jenks (assuming that he improves) are at the top of the list. And if Kenny decides to take a step back and really shake things up next year, Thornton would nab a solid prospect.

 

[Balta1701]

Well, you're a long-time fan, just as I am. This is something that has seemingly plagued us since well-before Ozzie and Walk got here. The 2001-2004 teams experienced the same kind of lacksidasical, underperforming attitude that some of these teams have under Ozzie.

 

Maybe it's the way Kenny builds teams, I don't know.

 

I always love his teams on paper but they rarely seem to have a fire about them to where they actually outperform their talent. 2005 was obviously the exception.

 

We always seem to be losing games we should be winning.

This is just how losing teams look

[iamshack]

This is just how losing teams look

Indeed, but I don't think the rosters Kenny has put together for the most part have been those of losing teams. So what is happening?

[Balta1701]

Indeed, but I don't think the rosters Kenny has put together for the most part have been those of losing teams. So what is happening?

The 2007 roster was a flat-out losing roster. D1 as a rookie. Joe Crede with a failing back that everyone knew was gone. A beaten up Scott Podsednik. Jerry Owens leadoff/LF. Terrible year from JD. Injured year from Konerko. Uribe his usual sub-.700 frustrating OPS. Aging/injured Jose Contreras. Basically a 3 man starting rotation. No depth in the minors so that guys like Andy Gonzalez were the replacements. Inexperienced bullpen and no patience with the guys in it.

 

2009 and 2010...the guys who have killed us have been; Carlos Quentin, Jermaine Dye, Alexei Ramirez, Gordon Beckham, Josh Fields, Gavin Floyd, Jake Peavy, Bobby Jenks.

 

I can't say I see a serious theme amongst any of them. Dye got old. Quentin got hurt. Alexei and Floyd can't get over their early season struggles. Josh Fields's health and swing fell apart. Gordon Beckham is just awful. Jake Peavy was hurt by a line drive when we needed him last year, and hasn't found anything this year. Bobby Jenks has lost his control.

 

Some of those could be expected, to some point, but usually, you don't expect so few positives.

[iamshack]

The 2007 roster was a flat-out losing roster. D1 as a rookie. Joe Crede with a failing back that everyone knew was gone. A beaten up Scott Podsednik. Jerry Owens leadoff/LF. Terrible year from JD. Injured year from Konerko. Uribe his usual sub-.700 frustrating OPS. Aging/injured Jose Contreras. Basically a 3 man starting rotation. No depth in the minors so that guys like Andy Gonzalez were the replacements. Inexperienced bullpen and no patience with the guys in it.

 

2009 and 2010...the guys who have killed us have been; Carlos Quentin, Jermaine Dye, Alexei Ramirez, Gordon Beckham, Josh Fields, Gavin Floyd, Jake Peavy, Bobby Jenks.

 

I can't say I see a serious theme amongst any of them. Dye got old. Quentin got hurt. Alexei and Floyd can't get over their early season struggles. Josh Fields's health and swing fell apart. Gordon Beckham is just awful. Jake Peavy was hurt by a line drive when we needed him last year, and hasn't found anything this year. Bobby Jenks has lost his control.

 

Some of those could be expected, to some point, but usually, you don't expect so few positives.

Again, this has been going on since at least 2001 IMO.

[Balta1701]

Again, this has been going on since at least 2001 IMO.

So, you're saying this is David Wells's fault?

 

I think you just, whether you like it or not, sorta admitted that I'm right; this is just how teams look once things go bad. They start looking lazy. Tired. Like they don't care.

 

[Dick Allen]

Again, this has been going on since at least 2001 IMO.

I agree. The roster on paper looks a lot better than the roster on the field. That said, there were plenty of "experts" and I'm not including Soxtalk posters who didn't think too much of the 2010 team.

[iamshack]

So, you're saying this is David Wells's fault?

 

I think you just, whether you like it or not, sorta admitted that I'm right; this is just how teams look once things go bad. They start looking lazy. Tired. Like they don't care.

What I'm saying is that since 2001, I have liked the rosters KW has put together. They have been very good teams on paper. Unfortunately, it seems as though they have all, outside of maybe 2005 and until the ASB of 2006, underperformed. Even when they were given chance after chance to get back into the thick of things because of a weak division, they laid down like lame dogs and went quietly into the night. They have lost to inferior competition year after year, despite having different rosters, different leaders, different managers, different coaching staffs.

 

What you are stating is that all losing teams look this way - you're making a correlation between losing and looking listless - but I'm saying I think there is something else at play here. Almost as though Kenny puts together teams with a certain character to them that seems to be unable to respond to challenges or to rally the troops or to pounce on an opportunity.

Edited June 6, 2010 by iamshack