Olney: Sox to start trading away vets

[fathom]

And I think if Mark were traded it would just be a salary dump that would piss off most of the non-SoxTalk/WSI/internet fans pretty severely. And then let's say the Hawks win the Cup and LBJ comes to Chicago. Welcome back, 1998 Chicago White Sox. We missed you.

 

They're not at that level already with Buehrle? If anything, an outing like Sunday's makes it easier to unload him.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Of all of the teams that might trade for starting pitching, the Cards have to be one of the least likely to splurge on something like $25 million for Mark Buehrle.

Yeah, they just made the Holliday deal and they've got to extend Pujols. Carpenter is making bank too, and they're still paying Kyle Lohse all that money for a long time.

[soxfan890]

IF I'M KENNY RIGHT NOW...

 

1. Get rid of Ozzie and Walker (keep Coop and Cora). I'm not a person to pin player struggles on coaches but enough is enough. This is a business, put friendships aside and make the right move Kenny.

 

2. If PK, AJP, Jenks have any return value/interest.. TRADE THEM

 

3. Send Beckham to AAA. Let him play consistently and regain his confidence.

 

4. Bring up and play some of these younger guys (Flowers, Morel, Danks, Hudson).

[fathom]

Me.

You think Mark Buehrle is finished? You think he won't kick ass with the Cardinals?

 

With the right NL team, I think he can be a below 4 ERA pitcher. In the AL Central, these hitters have seen him just far too much.

[fathom]

4. Bring up and play some of these younger guys (Flowers, Morel, Danks, Hudson).

 

Morel and Danks are so far away from being Major Leaguers, it's not even funny.

[Jerksticks]

10. Kotsay, Castro, Lillibridge, Nix, Vizquel = who cares. All for sale, none worth a damn.

 

 

This. What about making our bench spots more of a pipline with the minor league guys. I'm sick of wasting resources on old cast-off trash, guys past their primes. Why can't we give some Knights guys at-bats ever? Never, unless it's call-up season. If it was more fluid, guys up here would start worrying about their jobs and might play harder. Who knows.

 

I'd trade AJ though; he just doesn't care anymore.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

IF I'M KENNY RIGHT NOW...

 

1. Get rid of Ozzie and Walker (keep Coop and Cora). I'm not a person to pin player struggles on coaches but enough is enough. This is a business, put friendships aside and make the right move Kenny.

 

2. If PK, AJP, Jenks have any return value/interest.. TRADE THEM

 

3. Send Beckham to AAA. Let him play consistently and regain his confidence.

 

4. Bring up and play some of these younger guys (Flowers, Morel, Danks, Hudson).

And what makes you think any of those guys sans Hudson can play in the Major Leagues right now? Flowers and D2 are buckets of crap in Charlotte at this point. What do you think veteran MLB pitchers would do to their confidence?

 

Everyone should know that if vets are tried, other than Hudson, it's very likely we see Lillibridge, Nix, Vizquel, Kotsay, Castro, Lucy, etc. out there every day. It's waaaay more likely than people realize.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

This. What about making our bench spots more of a pipline with the minor league guys. I'm sick of wasting resources on old cast-off trash, guys past their primes. Why can't we give some Knights guys at-bats ever? Never, unless it's call-up season. If it was more fluid, guys up here would start worrying about their jobs and might play harder. Who knows.

 

I'd trade AJ though; he just doesn't care anymore.

I agree and I b**** about this every year. You don't need to spend a bunch of money on a bench when there are always guys out there willing to work for the minimum. As far as Charlotte guys I wouldn't bring up a prospect we think has a future as a starter, but nothing wrong with trying out a Retherford or Gartrell every now and then. If he sucks, big whoop. Send him down. If you need a roster spot, big whoop, DFA him. Who cares.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

They're not at that level already with Buehrle? If anything, an outing like Sunday's makes it easier to unload him.

That's why I said aside from some of the internet fans. As for the regular Sox fans, I don't think they're at that point yet. Not even close.

[iamshack]

Cardinals pitched two of their possible starting rotation replacements tonight, and they gave up 10 runs in 5 innings.

Isn't Vin Scully (minus the awful dye job) just magic to listen to?

 

I could watch/listen to Dodger games forever...

[iamshack]

That's why I said aside from some of the internet fans. As for the regular Sox fans, I don't think they're at that point yet. Not even close.

Regular Sox fans are not the sharpest tools in the shed though...

 

And while there might be some backlash for a few weeks, this is the perfect season to unload the fan favorites. The casual fans will be giving up on the team anyways and spending their money elsewhere.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Regular Sox fans are not the sharpest tools in the shed though...

 

And while there might be some backlash for a few weeks, this is the perfect season to unload the fan favorites. The casual fans will be giving up on the team anyways and spending their money elsewhere.

Well yeah, it's always easier to trade the better players during seasons that are already in the gutter. But realistically, Mark makes a lot of money, he has a NTC (meaning that even if the casuals aren't paying attention, they will be when they read the articles about the Sox trying to get Mark to waive a NTC, which probably happens) and we're very, very, very likely to lose that trade completely. We'd probably get nothing at all for Mark worth a s***, and our big win would be not having to pay him $14M in 2011. And how much of a win is that really? Peavy's contract is far worse, and if we're really that worried about Mark's health, we can shut him down and have him prepare for 2011. And I'd actually rather have Mark on shelf with his $14M all year in 2011 if the choice were that or a 4-5 year deal for Carl Crawford, which is probably where a lot of fans think the Sox should throw that money.

 

It just seems like there are way too many experts here willing to completely write Mark off when he's done nothing but show he's a greatly dependable player. And it's because of his lack of stuff, which happens every single time he has a stretch where he struggles, and I know you've seen it too since you're here on this board. Because Peavy throws harder and has nastier offspeed stuff he's more likely to turn it around than Mark, despite Mark's entire career. And then there are those who say Mark has lost too much off his fastball, too much this, too much that. Well, the Sox have Hermie if anything is wrong physically, and they have Coop if anything is wrong mechanically, and Buerhle is all there mentally, so I'll just go ahead and put my faith in Mark himself, his history, and the Sox staff, rather than a bunch of zit-faced little f***ers over there at Fangraphs.

[ThunderBolt]

Isn't Vin Scully (minus the awful dye job) just magic to listen to?

 

I could watch/listen to Dodger games forever...

Scully is an absolute treasure to hear call a ballgame. He paints a picture with every word. I've been switching off between him and Sutton and Grace, My two other favorite broadcasters at this point.

[iamshack]

Well yeah, it's always easier to trade the better players during seasons that are already in the gutter. But realistically, Mark makes a lot of money, he has a NTC (meaning that even if the casuals aren't paying attention, they will be when they read the articles about the Sox trying to get Mark to waive a NTC, which probably happens) and we're very, very, very likely to lose that trade completely. We'd probably get nothing at all for Mark worth a s***, and our big win would be not having to pay him $14M in 2011. And how much of a win is that really? Peavy's contract is far worse, and if we're really that worried about Mark's health, we can shut him down and have him prepare for 2011. And I'd actually rather have Mark on shelf with his $14M all year in 2011 if the choice were that or a 4-5 year deal for Carl Crawford, which is probably where a lot of fans think the Sox should throw that money.

 

It just seems like there are way too many experts here willing to completely write Mark off when he's done nothing but show he's a greatly dependable player. And it's because of his lack of stuff, which happens every single time he has a stretch where he struggles, and I know you've seen it too since you're here on this board. Because Peavy throws harder and has nastier offspeed stuff he's more likely to turn it around than Mark, despite Mark's entire career. And then there are those who say Mark has lost too much off his fastball, too much this, too much that. Well, the Sox have Hermie if anything is wrong physically, and they have Coop if anything is wrong mechanically, and Buerhle is all there mentally, so I'll just go ahead and put my faith in Mark himself, his history, and the Sox staff, rather than a bunch of zit-faced little f***ers over there at Fangraphs.

 

I'm not saying we can or should trade Mark, or Jake for that matter.

 

I'm in the camp of still liking this core and if we can add the right supplemental players, AND THE CORE PLAYERS CAN GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES AND ACTUALLY PERFORM AS THEY ARE CAPABLE OF, then we can still be a scary team to contend with.

 

I was just making the point that if you are going to deal away some fan favorites, this would be the time to try and do it. You'd probably have some fans come back for OD next year and ask "what happened to Mark and Pauly?"

[Wanne]

Isn't Vin Scully (minus the awful dye job) just magic to listen to?

 

I could watch/listen to Dodger games forever...

 

Listen to on the radio...yes. If the game is on right in front of you...no.

[joeynach]

So who are the vets? The usual suspects are AJP, PK, MB.

 

Knowing KW, he will want to simply re-tool for next year and not trade away players with multi-year deals. So I think its just the first 2 and perhaps Freddy, Andruw Jones, Vizquel, Kotsay. Granted you aren't getting much for them but it keeps this team intact hoping for the rebound next year that didn't come in first 3 months this year. Also, gives an opportunity to see what Viciedo and/or Flowers, Hudson bring in terms of needs for next season.

 

I think we may get some near ready, "change of scenery" prospects like we did with Floyd as opposed to stud prospects or low level, high ceiling guys.

 

Id say their are very few players on this team that should be "safe". I think its safe to say we have seen the best of Buehrle, Flloyd, Quentin, Jenks, AJP, Freddy, PK. There are a few guys to keep but for the most part I wouldnt be surprised if the sox try and dump most of that veteran talent. It could save them potentially $20M or more to spend for next year. Given the fact that its been reported the sox "stuck their neck out financially" this year I could see this being the case. Save some cash from a bad under-performing team, get some nice prospects in return, spend wiser next offseason, see if 2011 or 2012 you can make a winner out of. Seems logical.

 

[joeynach]

I'm not saying we can or should trade Mark, or Jake for that matter.

 

I'm in the camp of still liking this core and if we can add the right supplemental players, AND THE CORE PLAYERS CAN GET THEIR HEADS OUT OF THEIR ASSES AND ACTUALLY PERFORM AS THEY ARE CAPABLE OF, then we can still be a scary team to contend with.

 

I was just making the point that if you are going to deal away some fan favorites, this would be the time to try and do it. You'd probably have some fans come back for OD next year and ask "what happened to Mark and Pauly?"

 

Im a fan too, but you cant really let your fans run your team. They dont operate in the same galaxy you do when your a member of the front office. I just read an article in forbes about Philly's recent success. Their success is a product of patience by mgmt, tell the fans and media too bad be quiet for awhile, and excellent production (and spending) from scouting and drafting. If its time for PK and MB to go for the correct direction of this team then thats what needs to happen, I cant worry about Alice from Oak Lawn who on teacher night in 2011 is shocked and saddened to hear that hear favorite player Paulie and her secret crush Buehrle are no longer with the team.

[chisoxt]

Im a fan too, but you cant really let your fans run your team. They dont operate in the same galaxy you do when your a member of the front office. I just read an article in forbes about Philly's recent success. Their success is a product of patience by mgmt, tell the fans and media too bad be quiet for awhile, and excellent production (and spending) from scouting and drafting. If its time for PK and MB to go for the correct direction of this team then thats what needs to happen, I cant worry about Alice from Oak Lawn who on teacher night in 2011 is shocked and saddened to hear that hear favorite player Paulie and her secret crush Buehrle are no longer with the team.

I think that Kenny gets caught up into doing the types of deals that appeal to the meathead contingent of our fansbase and media ..ie, getting the big name veteran guy for prospects. For the most part, I have hated those all of those deals from the moment they are made, yes even the Jake Peavy trade. You can't look in the rearview mirror at a players production from three years ago and assume that that player will produce the same for you going forward at a very high salary to boot!

 

Truth be told, Kenny has been much more successful making the small deals. In fact, the 2005 WC team was put together with smaller under the radar pickups and trades, not with deals like Nick Swisher or Jake Peavy.

 

Yes, Olney reports that the purge will begin soon....about one year too late in my opinion. This thing may take years to fix.

[chisoxfan09]

This gets interesting from another point of view. With the selction of Sale we hopefully have a top flight starting pitcher in the wings for late 2011/early 2012. This could change things in that we should also have a top 10 pick next June. And we have still not picked up anyone from the 2nd round or below. It could be the start of restcking the farm for a long term plan to rebuild. This is really not as bad as it looks to me. If we can even trade off some of the players we have with high payroll and shed that then we have room to grow. But it would have to to be accepted that we offically dump the "Win Now" mentality.

[WCSox]

Im a fan too, but you cant really let your fans run your team. They dont operate in the same galaxy you do when your a member of the front office. I just read an article in forbes about Philly's recent success. Their success is a product of patience by mgmt, tell the fans and media too bad be quiet for awhile, and excellent production (and spending) from scouting and drafting. If its time for PK and MB to go for the correct direction of this team then thats what needs to happen, I cant worry about Alice from Oak Lawn who on teacher night in 2011 is shocked and saddened to hear that hear favorite player Paulie and her secret crush Buehrle are no longer with the team.

 

Exactly. The casual fan can't even name the startling lineup, much less make comment intelligently on the actions of the front office. And Sox fans aren't going to show up if the team isn't competitive, so that gives the front office even less incentive to care what they think.

 

That said, KHP's comment about appropriate trade value for Mark is a good one. Right now, you're not going to get crap in return for a guy who looks like he's on the down-slope of his career and would be owed roughly $35M when his trade clause kicked in. And then you have to deal with his limited NTC/10/5 rights, which hurt his market significantly. If the Sox did decide to trade Mark, it wouldn't be until this winter at the earliest. And then you have to hope that he really picks it up over the next 3 1/2 months. If he continues to throw like a #3 or #4 into next July, the question then becomes salary relief vs. draft picks.

 

[hogan873]

So, looking at who could possibly get traded, who makes sense to trade, and who will not get traded, what does this team look like next year? I don't think the outfield changes, unless Quentin ends up being a DH...and in that case who takes over the outfield position? The infield will most likely have two changes, that being 1B and C. Of course we could be surprised, and Konerko re-signs for less money here. The starting pitching staff could look quite a bit different, depending on whether or not Buehrle and/or Floyd gets traded (I don't think Peavy is going anywhere).

 

So, here's my guess:

 

1B - Viciedo or a FA

2B - Beckham

3B - Teahen

SS - Alexei

C - Flowers or Lucy

LF - Pierre

CF - Rios

RF - Quentin or Danks2 or FA

DH - Quentin or FA

 

Pitching

Peavy

Danks

?

?

?

 

I'll admit to not knowing much at all about our minor league system and absolutely nothing about the minors of some of the teams we will be making trades with. I honestly don't see a big change in the lineup, save for 1B and C, and that's iffy depending on Konerko. I hear different things about Viciedo, but I'm hoping we see him soon. I don't want to see Rios go anywhere, and I think Pierre is here to stay, too (and I don't really mind now as he seems to be trending back to his norm). The pitching to me is the biggest question mark. If Buehrle and/or Floyd get traded I imagine Hudson comes up. I'm not sure about Garcia...I'd be surprised if he finishes the year here and very surprised if he's here next year.

[harfman77]

So, looking at who could possibly get traded, who makes sense to trade, and who will not get traded, what does this team look like next year? I don't think the outfield changes, unless Quentin ends up being a DH...and in that case who takes over the outfield position? The infield will most likely have two changes, that being 1B and C. Of course we could be surprised, and Konerko re-signs for less money here. The starting pitching staff could look quite a bit different, depending on whether or not Buehrle and/or Floyd gets traded (I don't think Peavy is going anywhere).

 

So, here's my guess:

 

1B - Viciedo or a FA

2B - Beckham

3B - Teahen

SS - Alexei

C - Flowers or Lucy

LF - Pierre

CF - Rios

RF - Quentin or Danks2 or FA

DH - Quentin or FA

 

Pitching

Peavy

Danks

?

?

?

 

I'll admit to not knowing much at all about our minor league system and absolutely nothing about the minors of some of the teams we will be making trades with. I honestly don't see a big change in the lineup, save for 1B and C, and that's iffy depending on Konerko. I hear different things about Viciedo, but I'm hoping we see him soon. I don't want to see Rios go anywhere, and I think Pierre is here to stay, too (and I don't really mind now as he seems to be trending back to his norm). The pitching to me is the biggest question mark. If Buehrle and/or Floyd get traded I imagine Hudson comes up. I'm not sure about Garcia...I'd be surprised if he finishes the year here and very surprised if he's here next year.

 

Which is an even worse team than we have now. I am not sure why people think we can trade off the scraps and turn this around, but that is what has happened the last few years and gotten the team to this point. The only way to get a good value for some of these players is to take back a bad contract in return. If you are going to sell off pieces you might as well sell the pieces that have value rather than getting a return of pennies on the dollar.

[Chicago White Sox]

Steve Stone was on CSN last night and made it very clear that he believes A.J. will be moved before Monday when he earns his 10/5 rights.

 

He also said that he doesn't think Konerko is part of KW's future plans (not too surprising), so he'll be moved if the team doesn't improve in the near future.

[hogan873]

Which is an even worse team than we have now. I am not sure why people think we can trade off the scraps and turn this around, but that is what has happened the last few years and gotten the team to this point. The only way to get a good value for some of these players is to take back a bad contract in return. If you are going to sell off pieces you might as well sell the pieces that have value rather than getting a return of pennies on the dollar.

As I was typing my post, I realized that it does make for a bad team (depending on what happens over the offseason). I've alluded to this before: KW doesn't seem like the type of GM that wants to spend a year or two rebuilding. I could be wrong, but I could see him clearing payroll with trades and getting only moderate returns in way of prospects. Then he could take the $ saved and go after some free agents.

[flavum]

They might trade AJ before next Monday, but I don't think his 10/5 date is that important. No matter who wants him, they're going to be a contending team because who else would want him for the rest of the year? I think he'll still approve a trade after June 14 because it will give him a chance to win this year.

 

Steve Stone was on CSN last night and made it very clear that he believes A.J. will be moved before Monday when he earns his 10/5 rights.

 

He also said that he doesn't think Konerko is part of KW's future plans (not too surprising), so he'll be moved if the team doesn't improve in the near future.