Blago Trial

[Balta1701]

People who commit violent crimes are often given less time than what the govt wants Blago to do. I just dont believe they have their priorities straight.

Really...we're actually going to get an argument here that white collar fraud is punished too harshly and violent crime is punished too leniently?

[Soxbadger]

I dont think I ever said that.

 

Merely stated that they feds have a conviction that could carry up to 5 year prison term.

 

What more do they want?

 

20 year term? 50 year term?

 

The guy is in ruins, he wont ever have the opportunity to commit a similar crime again. He poses no real risk to society.

 

I guess Im not into punishment for the sake of punishment. They convicted Blago, why do they need another show?

 

I would prefer that they moved on to bigger and better things.

[Rex Kickass]

I dont think I ever said that.

 

Merely stated that they feds have a conviction that could carry up to 5 year prison term.

 

What more do they want?

 

20 year term? 50 year term?

 

The guy is in ruins, he wont ever have the opportunity to commit a similar crime again. He poses no real risk to society.

 

I guess Im not into punishment for the sake of punishment. They convicted Blago, why do they need another show?

 

I would prefer that they moved on to bigger and better things.

 

I am of the mind that if you punish the coverup and not the crime, it just encourages politicians to be more brazen about the wrong that they do, when and if they choose to do wrong. Because if the crime is just politics, why bother lying about it?

 

[Jenksismyhero]

I dont think I ever said that.

 

Merely stated that they feds have a conviction that could carry up to 5 year prison term.

 

What more do they want?

 

20 year term? 50 year term?

 

The guy is in ruins, he wont ever have the opportunity to commit a similar crime again. He poses no real risk to society.

 

I guess Im not into punishment for the sake of punishment. They convicted Blago, why do they need another show?

 

I would prefer that they moved on to bigger and better things.

 

He should get a prison term for each count he gets convicted on. Maybe if this state/country/society didn't just blow over this crap, and hand out meaningful penalties (i.e., you do corrupt things in public office, you're going to jail for a long, long time), these people would feel it's not worth the risk of getting caught and they'd stop using their public office for private gain.

 

How sick is it that the two senators accused of ethics violations are still being praised for their years of service? Yeah, years of service while lining their own pockets, and the pockets of their friends. It's ridiculous.

 

[NorthSideSox72]

I am of the mind that if you punish the coverup and not the crime, it just encourages politicians to be more brazen about the wrong that they do, when and if they choose to do wrong. Because if the crime is just politics, why bother lying about it?

Exactly. This isn't about punishing Blago, its about sending a message.

 

[Soxbadger]

Exactly. This isn't about punishing Blago, its about sending a message.

 

Which goes against our entire criminal system. You dont single out an individual defendant to send a message. You treat everyone equally under the law.

 

I dont believe in sending messages, they dont work.

 

The only message that is being sent to politicians right now is:

 

1) Dont be as stupid as Blago.

 

2) If youre going to be as stupid as Blago, make sure you play ball with the more powerful politicians.

 

In my opinion this is all about Blago not playing the game with the Madigan's, Mell's, Daley's and Obama's of the world.

 

If you want to send a message, take down a big fish, not a small one.

 

 

He should get a prison term for each count he gets convicted on. Maybe if this state/country/society didn't just blow over this crap, and hand out meaningful penalties (i.e., you do corrupt things in public office, you're going to jail for a long, long time), these people would feel it's not worth the risk of getting caught and they'd stop using their public office for private gain.

 

But the multiple counts wont really matter. In all reality he will most likely serve "concurrent" terms, which means that if he gets convicted for 70 counts at 5 years, or 1 count at 5 years, it is still the same time served.

 

As for the country blowing over the crap, its the reality of politics. People enter politics for private gain. They become senators, governors, presidents, for their own gain.

 

We dont have some philosopher king system where the politicians are altruistic and want to help people. As much as that would be great, it is a fantasy world. When it comes to politicians (imo) its just a matter of which one is the worst or the biggest criminal, because I believe almost all of them push the envelope a little.

 

Anyway, I just dont see the need of the govt wasting money on this stuff. It wont change politicians, hell even though governors of Illinois have been convicted, Blago was still "brazen" about it.

[NorthSideSox72]

Which goes against our entire criminal system. You dont single out an individual defendant to send a message. You treat everyone equally under the law.

 

I dont believe in sending messages, they dont work.

 

The only message that is being sent to politicians right now is:

 

1) Dont be as stupid as Blago.

 

2) If youre going to be as stupid as Blago, make sure you play ball with the more powerful politicians.

 

In my opinion this is all about Blago not playing the game with the Madigan's, Mell's, Daley's and Obama's of the world.

 

If you want to send a message, take down a big fish, not a small one.

Goes against the entire criminal system? What? I'd say quite the opposite - if you are prosecuting purely for punishment, that goes against the purpose of the institution. The penalties are in place to discourage people from doing these things at all.

 

Blago was the SITTING GOVERNOR - that's a pretty big f***ing fish. It doesn't get much bigger than that. Mell? That guy is tiny compared to a sitting governor.

 

[Soxbadger]

Goes against the entire criminal system? What? I'd say quite the opposite - if you are prosecuting purely for punishment, that goes against the purpose of the institution. The penalties are in place to discourage people from doing these things at all.

 

I disagree.

 

I think the purpose of criminal law is to stop further criminal behavior by the specific individual and to rehabilitate them back into society, which is why they are given sentences that match the crime. I do not think the purpose of criminal law is to catch a few criminals and try and set examples of them, believing it will some how dissuade further criminal behavior.

 

Blago was the SITTING GOVERNOR - that's a pretty big f***ing fish. It doesn't get much bigger than that. Mell? That guy is tiny compared to a sitting governor.

 

Blago was governor because of Mell. He then pissed off Mell and got thrown to the wolves.

 

Just because some one has a more prolific position does not mean that they actually have more power.

 

Do you really think Blago had the ability to successfully become Governor on his own?

 

The guy could barely use a computer, had no idea how to send a txt message and cant even type or send email.

 

He was a pawn, who was more marketable then other candidates, so they went with him knowing that theyd tell him what to do.

 

In my opinion the reason why the feds went after Blago before the seat was sold, is that they feared theyd have to take down some one else with Blago, who had more political clout and it would mess up the case.

 

But if people think that Blago going to jail will really change Illinois politics, its a great belief. I just dont think it would happen, I think you take down a Mell/Madigan, you show the old school political powers that its not just business as usual. But right now, everyone is focusing on Blago, instead of looking at what is still going on in Illinois politics today.

[StrangeSox]

I'm really not getting why the feds should just stop trying to convict Blago of the other crimes he probably committed because he's been found guilty of one of them.

[Jenksismyhero]

Which goes against our entire criminal system. You dont single out an individual defendant to send a message. You treat everyone equally under the law.

 

I dont believe in sending messages, they dont work.

 

The only message that is being sent to politicians right now is:

 

1) Dont be as stupid as Blago.

 

2) If youre going to be as stupid as Blago, make sure you play ball with the more powerful politicians.

 

In my opinion this is all about Blago not playing the game with the Madigan's, Mell's, Daley's and Obama's of the world.

 

If you want to send a message, take down a big fish, not a small one.

 

 

 

 

But the multiple counts wont really matter. In all reality he will most likely serve "concurrent" terms, which means that if he gets convicted for 70 counts at 5 years, or 1 count at 5 years, it is still the same time served.

 

As for the country blowing over the crap, its the reality of politics. People enter politics for private gain. They become senators, governors, presidents, for their own gain.

 

We dont have some philosopher king system where the politicians are altruistic and want to help people. As much as that would be great, it is a fantasy world. When it comes to politicians (imo) its just a matter of which one is the worst or the biggest criminal, because I believe almost all of them push the envelope a little.

 

Anyway, I just dont see the need of the govt wasting money on this stuff. It wont change politicians, hell even though governors of Illinois have been convicted, Blago was still "brazen" about it.

 

(1) The counts carry different prison terms and fines, including things like the possibility of parol. So it's not the 1 to 1 ratio you're going with there.

 

(2) Blasphemy! Obama cares about us and wants to help us.

[greg775]

They wont settle at this point, not because Blago wouldnt, but because Fitzgerald is looking bad right now. Its becoming vindictive. You got the guy, hes in financial ruins, he could go to jail for a few months or years.

 

I think thats enough, lets save some tax payer money and move on with our lives.

 

 

I dont think I ever said that.

 

Merely stated that they feds have a conviction that could carry up to 5 year prison term.

 

What more do they want?

 

20 year term? 50 year term?

 

The guy is in ruins, he wont ever have the opportunity to commit a similar crime again. He poses no real risk to society.

 

I guess Im not into punishment for the sake of punishment. They convicted Blago, why do they need another show?

 

I would prefer that they moved on to bigger and better things.

 

I tend to agree with Badger.

This is a great thread BTW. Unlike the Sox board people on here are expressing fluent arguments and not merely presenting the same ol s*** over and over like Kotsay and Ozzie sucks.

This is a GREAT THREAD. Great discussion.

I love hearing your takes on Blago.

[StrangeSox]

I bet the holdout juror was Dweezy.

[greg775]

I didn't follow the trial that well. Was the defense's position mainly that Blago is a moron who just talks out his ass and didn't mean it or something?

I find him a funny little man.

[StrangeSox]

Pretty much, I think. "Just political talk, nothing more"

[Soxbadger]

(1) The counts carry different prison terms and fines, including things like the possibility of parol. So it's not the 1 to 1 ratio you're going with there.

 

(2) Blasphemy! Obama cares about us and wants to help us.

 

1) True, but in general loading up on counts does not do a huge amount of difference. The reason (imo) that they load up on them is so that all they have to do is get one.

 

2) You dont even want to know about the conspiracy theory I have regarding Obama and the Blago arrest. Ive got a lot of issues with Obama, but some one has to be the tallest midget.

[southsider2k5]

Pretty much, I think. "Just political talk, nothing more"

 

Yeah, supposedly talking about committing crimes isn't a crime. You have to take meaningful action for them to become "crimes"

[Balta1701]

I didn't follow the trial that well. Was the defense's position mainly that Blago is a moron who just talks out his ass and didn't mean it or something?

I find him a funny little man.

Basically yes. The defense hardly presented a case.

[Soxbadger]

Well that is true.

 

Conspiracy to commit a crime requires a some actual action towards committing the crime. Just merely speaking about it, is generally not enough.

 

This is why police dont bust drug dealers, gang members, etc for just talking on the phone. They wait until they actually commit the crime.

 

Thus the question is, why did the feds not wait until after Blago actually sold the seat and took the cash?

 

Ive got some conspiracy theories, but I doubt we will ever know the truth.

 

[Balta1701]

Thus the question is, why did the feds not wait until after Blago actually sold the seat and took the cash?

 

Ive got some conspiracy theories, but I doubt we will ever know the truth.

Real simple. The Tribune was going to run the next morning that the Feds were wiretapping Blago. The Trib called both Blago and Fitz for comment on their story. That gave Blago time to do all the things you'd do if you weren't corrupt, like call up people who might legitimately be qualified for the Senate seat and offer it to them, and it forced Fitz to bring his case forwards and do the arrest, because the buy wouldn't go down anyway and they'd be leaving it to chance whether Blago could cover up documents and such.

[Soxbadger]

Yeah ive heard the excuse, I find it to be lazy and uninspiring.

 

It would be like saying that they finally went after Al Capone because the trib was going to run an article that Fed may be investigating him for being associated with the mob.

 

The article could have only prevented future misconduct, it could not have undone any of the wiretaps (almost the entirety of the evidence the govt had).

 

I dont buy it, my belief is that Blago was going to sell the seat to some one who had far more powerful political allies. That when the powers that be got wind of the fact it wouldnt only be Blago going down, but instead it would be Blago + Politician, they forced Fitzgerald to move before he had a concrete case.

 

I believe that the Democratic party did not want any potential senators/reps going down with Blago, because that would hurt them on a federal scale (which actually matters in terms of house/senate seats).

 

Losing Blago, no one cares about. Losing a house or senate vote, when things are close, is a major deal. Thus the premature arrest.

 

Once again, this is just my opinion. But this was not a case where you really had to worry about Blago covering up physical evidence. They guy cant use email or computers, hes not writing memos outlining the sale of the seat. It was all done over the phone.

 

I think the Tribune is a convenient excuse.

[southsider2k5]

Yeah ive heard the excuse, I find it to be lazy and uninspiring.

 

It would be like saying that they finally went after Al Capone because the trib was going to run an article that Fed may be investigating him for being associated with the mob.

 

The article could have only prevented future misconduct, it could not have undone any of the wiretaps (almost the entirety of the evidence the govt had).

 

I dont buy it, my belief is that Blago was going to sell the seat to some one who had far more powerful political allies. That when the powers that be got wind of the fact it wouldnt only be Blago going down, but instead it would be Blago + Politician, they forced Fitzgerald to move before he had a concrete case.

 

I believe that the Democratic party did not want any potential senators/reps going down with Blago, because that would hurt them on a federal scale (which actually matters in terms of house/senate seats).

 

Losing Blago, no one cares about. Losing a house or senate vote, when things are close, is a major deal. Thus the premature arrest.

 

Once again, this is just my opinion. But this was not a case where you really had to worry about Blago covering up physical evidence. They guy cant use email or computers, hes not writing memos outlining the sale of the seat. It was all done over the phone.

I think the Tribune is a convenient excuse.

 

I think the question becomes who were their sources?

[NorthSideSox72]

Yeah ive heard the excuse, I find it to be lazy and uninspiring.

 

It would be like saying that they finally went after Al Capone because the trib was going to run an article that Fed may be investigating him for being associated with the mob.

 

The article could have only prevented future misconduct, it could not have undone any of the wiretaps (almost the entirety of the evidence the govt had).

 

I dont buy it, my belief is that Blago was going to sell the seat to some one who had far more powerful political allies. That when the powers that be got wind of the fact it wouldnt only be Blago going down, but instead it would be Blago + Politician, they forced Fitzgerald to move before he had a concrete case.

 

I believe that the Democratic party did not want any potential senators/reps going down with Blago, because that would hurt them on a federal scale (which actually matters in terms of house/senate seats).

 

Losing Blago, no one cares about. Losing a house or senate vote, when things are close, is a major deal. Thus the premature arrest.

 

Once again, this is just my opinion. But this was not a case where you really had to worry about Blago covering up physical evidence. They guy cant use email or computers, hes not writing memos outlining the sale of the seat. It was all done over the phone.

 

I think the Tribune is a convenient excuse.

You are one paranoid dude.

 

Fitzgerald has always had a reputation of being an absolute bulldog, for good or for bad. He takes down people from both parties, with great vigor. He's also considered one of the most successful people in his job. Why in the hell would he suddenly decide he was OK with arresting the sitting governor, but somehow afraid of some other Illinois politician? That makes zero sense.

 

[southsider2k5]

You are one paranoid dude.

 

Fitzgerald has always had a reputation of being an absolute bulldog, for good or for bad. He takes down people from both parties, with great vigor. He's also considered one of the most successful people in his job. Why in the hell would he suddenly decide he was OK with arresting the sitting governor, but somehow afraid of some other Illinois politician? That makes zero sense.

 

I am guessing he is talking higher than an Illinois politician.

[NorthSideSox72]

I am guessing he is talking higher than an Illinois politician.

Still makes no sense. If someone higher up - like someone in the White House, I suppose he is getting at - was going to try to work with Blago on something underhanded, then having him arrested is just pointless. There is no motivation there. They'd instead try to call of Fitzgerald, or just walk away. And if Blago ALREADY knew something, then it doesn't matter in any case, early or late in the game.

 

I find conspiracy theories where the conspirators have no motivation for that action to be amusing.

 

[Soxbadger]

I think the question becomes who were their sources?

 

You mean how did the Tribune get information on what should have been secret wire taps?

 

Probably from some high ranking Democratic fed who was worried about who Blago was selling the seat too.

 

You are one paranoid dude.

 

Fitzgerald has always had a reputation of being an absolute bulldog, for good or for bad. He takes down people from both parties, with great vigor. He's also considered one of the most successful people in his job. Why in the hell would he suddenly decide he was OK with arresting the sitting governor, but somehow afraid of some other Illinois politician? That makes zero sense.

 

Its better to distrust the govt and be wrong, then to trust the govt and be wrong. So I distrust almost everything that the govt says (Democratic and Republican) and try and piece together what I think the truth is from the facts.

 

Why would Fitz be afraid?

 

Perhaps because the "other" Illinois politician happened to be his bosses boss, Mr. Obama.

 

Fitzgerald reports to Holder.

 

Holder reports to Obama.

 

I just cant imagine that Obama is going to sit on the sidelines and potentially watch one of his allies go down because of Blago's nonsense. The only way to stop it is to go after Blago before it can be tied to any specific person.

 

Otherwise you just wait and see what happens. You have just as good of a case no matter what the trib does. And many times its the cover up that actually is what nails people, so its hard to say whether Blago trying to cover up would have helped or hurt him.