Guillen, Williams almost come to blows during shouting match

[JorgeFabregas]

So Kenny reportedly confronted Ozzie about saying he'd pay his kid not to sign.

 

Presumably Ozzie was pissed about the draft position and did his small part to undermine the team by telling one of their draft picks not to sign. I have no problem with him acting as a father and giving advice to his kid that may be to the organization's detriment, but he doesn't have to flaunt that in public.

[harfman77]

Really they both need to go. Ozzie has lost the team, his coaching staff has been ineffective in getting the struggling players on the roster to turn it around, and his perception around the league hurts the Sox when trying to bring in players.

 

KW is responsible for the dearth of talent in the organization, having really no impact players in the farm, overpaying for vets that will cause the Sox not to be able to get fair value in return, and his unwillingness/inability to rebuild a team. The reloading or shuffling the deck only works if you are bringing in talent and KW really doesnt get the better end of deals very often.

[WCSox]

People keep jumping to this conclusion - I'm not seeing it, and I have seen no evidence of it. I think Jerry does like Ozzie a lot, but also finds him difficult. I think he likes KW less, but knows KW is damn good at his job. I just don't see Jerry taking Ozzie's side over KW in this situation.

 

Especially considering that Ozzie's family is turning JR's team into a circus.

 

I don't trust anything that Cowley writes, so it's nearly impossible to discern what's really going on here. But I'm convinced now that Ozzie won't be working for the Sox at the end of the year.

 

[WCSox]

KW is responsible for the dearth of talent in the organization, having really no impact players in the farm, overpaying for vets that will cause the Sox not to be able to get fair value in return, and his unwillingness/inability to rebuild a team. The reloading or shuffling the deck only works if you are bringing in talent and KW really doesnt get the better end of deals very often.

 

I disagree with the bolded part, but the rest of your post is spot-on.

 

[elrockinMT]

I don't get it, is Oz pissed because we didn't draft his kid sooner??? If so, he needs to get his head out of his ass, If his kid was any better then one of the other 31 teams would have swooped him up before the 22nd round. Sounds like we did him a favor.

 

 

That's what I would think too. But, the kid, and any kid for that mater, should go to college and get an education and learn to play baseball.

 

I think KW will be gone as Ozzie Guillen led the team to a World Series Championship and KW has stripped our farm system of talent. That is my opinion on it.

[ptatc]

While I wouldn't be sad to see both quit/fired, if KW goes and Ozzie stays, that would be worst case scenario. It baffles me that certain people can't see how out of control Guillen and his family have become. But hey, winning a World Series ring gives you immunity I guess.

 

Yes, it does give you more latitude. JR lived with winning 3 playoff titles in 20 years. While this situation is a soap opera, it has been comparatively very successful. I'm sure he will do all he can to try to keep it together. However, the Sox have had the same GM and manager for a long period of time compared to most teams so it will come to an end in the not too distant future.

 

[scenario]

Why is it that the only source playing out this story to soap opera proportions is the Sun Times?

 

Never mind. I don't need an answer to that.

 

 

[Steve9347]

Someone act as if I have been ignoring this type of Sox stuff for awhile due to the Blackhawks.

 

What happened? Did KW pass on Ozney?

[Texsox]

The real argument was probably two very competitive people pissed that the team that put together/manage is sucking. They are both on edge and started arguing. The topic at hand was probably meaningless. It could have been over a lunch tab, color of a shirt, or their kids.

[JPN366]

This is what happens when you trade away every prospect you have.

[Texsox]

This is what happens when you trade away every prospect you have.

 

Every player, on every roster, is your prospect if you are willing to pay the price to get that player.

[WCSox]

This is what happens when you trade away every prospect you have.

 

How many of those prospects have become above-average ML players?

 

[Greg Hibbard]

Don't misunderstand what I'm saying.

 

Sometimes it is clear that a GM is not putting together a roster capable of winning anything. Sometimes he hamstrings his organization with ill-fated contracts and set it back for years. Sometimes he makes ridiculously poor trades which continuously work out in favor of the opposition.

 

I think it's hard to say those things about Kenny.

 

One can certainly argue the roster we went into this year with was quite imperfect - and I don't have an issue with that argument. But we must remember that rosters are often a work in progress at the beginning of a season, and appropriate tweaks or more significant changes may be made in order to strengthen an area or areas that need be. I think it's apparent that Kenny is a fan of such an approach.

 

So what you have to look at then is whether their were indications that this core would perform this poorly, or even anywhere near as poor as it has performed. If you can honestly tell me you suspected Mark, Jake, and Gavin would pitch this terribly, well, you are a smart man. If you believed that Carlos, Gordon and AJ would perform this terribly, than you are a smart man.

 

In my opinion, to expect those 6 players to perform this terribly for this long was completely unfathomable. I also don't believe there were ANY steps that could have been taken to produce a winning club with those 6 players performing this terribly.

 

I think this is a case where the blame falls on the players. I don't believe firing this GM and replacing him would yield any different results, other than a full-scale rebuild, which may or may not prove to be any more successful than what we currently have.

 

Honestly, the biggest problem I have on the GM-side is that Williams seemingly counted on Quentin and Beckham to go out there and produce at a clip that didn't have the MLB-experience to necessarily back it up. Yes, AJ, Jake, Mark and Gavin have disappointed, but Quentin and Beckham aren't necessarily what we thought they were, and that's a talent evaluation call. (Alexei as well, to a lesser extent)

[jamesdiego]

Well yes, if the team was playing well, then I highly doubt this would be going on. Reinsdorf should be pretty ashamed of himself if this story is true when you consider the VDN/Paxson situation as well. But just remember D. Wade, JR is not loyal at all!!

 

 

You're being sarcastic right? If anything JR is loyal to a fault. He will probably keep Oz and KW for the duration of the season, instead of firing Oz like he needs to. I'm so sick of his drama from his family, we all know it's Oney who is Cowleys source. Starting up s***, trying to blame all this on KW. Everyone deserves blame here.

 

And who the **** would of guessed that Beckham would of nose dived like this. GMAFB

[harfman77]

How many of those prospects have become above-average ML players?

 

What does that tell you about our amateur talent acquisition? That all falls on the GM to employ the right scouts and draft and sign the right players then make sure they are developed. If that is not happening, which it isnt, that is the GM's fault.

[dmbjeff]

Honestly, the biggest problem I have on the GM-side is that Williams seemingly counted on Quentin and Beckham to go out there and produce at a clip that didn't have the MLB-experience to necessarily back it up. Yes, AJ, Jake, Mark and Gavin have disappointed, but Quentin and Beckham aren't necessarily what we thought they were, and that's a talent evaluation call. (Alexei as well, to a lesser extent)

 

Q nearly won an MVP 2 seasons ago. If not for his wrist injury the final month, he surely would have won the award. Beckham won the Sporting News ROY last year and if he had come up sooner, probably would have won it over Bailey or at least would have shared it with him. Long track records certainly help gauge a players performance, but very few fans, experts, baseball execs thought Beckham and Q would fall off as they have. To blame KW for their fall off after having great success with each player is idiotic.

[Greg Hibbard]

Q nearly won an MVP 2 seasons ago. If not for his wrist injury the final month, he surely would have won the award. Beckham won the Sporting News ROY last year and if he had come up sooner, probably would have won it over Bailey or at least would have shared it with him. Long track records certainly help gauge a players performance, but very few fans, experts, baseball execs thought Beckham and Q would fall off as they have. To blame KW for their fall off after having great success with each player is idiotic.

 

Your counterpoint is a straw man. I never said I blame KW for their fall off after having great success. I blame KW for having an ill-equipped back-up plan to two guys without enough of a track record.

[justBLAZE]

cst_sox:

 

"Is the relationship the same way it was? Not really, because a few things have happened in disagreements, but that’s part of life.’’ - Oz

 

"There are a lot of things that happened this year and we’re not going to deny it.'' Oz on KW relationship. 30 minutes ago via API

 

Oz - "Funny thing about it is I’m out of shape to fight anyone. Last time I fight I was 10 years old.'' 38 minutes ago via API

 

Oz's basic message - Kenny and I can work together, we're just not friends. More to come. 44 minutes ago via API

 

http://blogs.suntimes.com/whitesox/2010/06..._things_ke.html

Edited June 11, 2010 by justBLAZE

[JPN366]

What does that tell you about our amateur talent acquisition? That all falls on the GM to employ the right scouts and draft and sign the right players then make sure they are developed. If that is not happening, which it isnt, that is the GM's fault.

 

Also, having someone tell Tyler Flowers to change his swing is counter productive. It's almost bordering on sabotage.

[WCSox]

What does that tell you about our amateur talent acquisition? That all falls on the GM to employ the right scouts and draft and sign the right players then make sure they are developed. If that is not happening, which it isnt, that is the GM's fault.

 

No doubt that the Sox farm system was not good during the first half of Kenny's tenure. And that's on him.

 

But he was able to use some of those mediocre/bad minor-leaguers to nab guys like Garcia, Thornton, and Vazquez.

 

[Balta1701]

Also, having someone tell Tyler Flowers to change his swing is counter productive. It's almost bordering on sabotage.

Not when you look at his numbers.

 

He's going to be striking out 200+ times in the big leagues if he comes up right now. That means his ceiling is Mark Reynolds if he can connect for 40+ HR a year...but his bust potential is high and his Josh Fields potential is very high.

 

He could pull off the Reynolds. We won't know until we see him.

[dmbjeff]

Your counterpoint is a straw man. I never said I blame KW for their fall off after having great success. I blame KW for having an ill-equipped back-up plan to two guys without enough of a track record.

 

What should have KW done to make you feel better about a fallback option at 2B and RF? It's as if you expect to have a MLB starter sitting on our bench to fill in at the drop of a hat or having a quality MLB option sitting at every position in the minors. That just isn't the case for us as it isn't the case for nearly every other MLB team. KW felt that those two players have proved enough that they wouldn't struggle to the point that they each have.

 

Look around the league at other teams who lost players to injury or have players who performed poorly just like the Sox. Jimmy Rollins has been out nearly all season and have had to play a couple of scrubs at SS. Is it Amaro's fault that they don't have a better SS option within the organization?

[greg775]

If the favored son tweeted that he isn't going to tweet any more about the Sox, that means dad and JR laid down some kind of law.

Now whether Oz and KW can meet without punching each other is anybody's guess.

 

I still say this is all about former big leaguers' egos. Oz was a much better player than KW and think he's knows more baseball than KW and they don't get along. Period.

[dmbjeff]

Not when you look at his numbers.

 

He's going to be striking out 200+ times in the big leagues if he comes up right now. That means his ceiling is Mark Reynolds if he can connect for 40+ HR a year...but his bust potential is high and his Josh Fields potential is very high.

 

He could pull off the Reynolds. We won't know until we see him.

 

His outlook is a little bit different coming from the catching position. If he was an IF or OF, having those type of K totals would be devastating. Most teams would gladly take a .230 avg while striking out 200 times if it meant 25 HR and 80 RBI from a catcher.

[Tuna]

If the favored son tweeted that he isn't going to tweet any more about the Sox, that means dad and JR laid down some kind of law.

Now whether Oz and KW can meet without punching each other is anybody's guess.

 

I still say this is all about former big leaguers' egos. Oz was a much better player than KW and think he's knows more baseball than KW and they don't get along. Period.

 

or

 

KW is frustrated that he gave Oz the team he wanted and they perform like this. Then you add his kid in there...