Guillen, Williams almost come to blows during shouting match

[WCSox]

His outlook is a little bit different coming from the catching position. If he was an IF or OF, having those type of K totals would be devastating. Most teams would gladly take a .230 avg while striking out 200 times if it meant 25 HR and 80 RBI from a catcher.

 

Throw in the fact that he'll be cheap for six full seasons and you have a good point. If he ends up being the next Ron Karkovice (with a little more power), he would be serviceable. Not exactly ideal but, if he calls good games and is decent defensively, I'll take a .750 OPS out of the catcher position.

 

[Kyyle23]

If the favored son tweeted that he isn't going to tweet any more about the Sox, that means dad and JR laid down some kind of law.

Now whether Oz and KW can meet without punching each other is anybody's guess.

 

I still say this is all about former big leaguers' egos. Oz was a much better player than KW and think he's knows more baseball than KW and they don't get along. Period.

 

Im sorry, but "I was a better player than you were" isnt even entering the equation here, and it never did. You honestly think that Ozzie seriously threw this in Kennys face?

 

Maybe greg, just maybe, they were actually arguing about this seasons disaster(record, performance, draft). Just a thought

[fathom]

Im sorry, but "I was a better player than you were" isnt even entering the equation here, and it never did. You honestly think that Ozzie seriously threw this in Kennys face?

 

Maybe greg, just maybe, they were actually arguing about this seasons disaster(record, performance, draft). Just a thought

 

THANK YOU

[Greg Hibbard]

What should have KW done to make you feel better about a fallback option at 2B and RF? It's as if you expect to have a MLB starter sitting on our bench to fill in at the drop of a hat or having a quality MLB option sitting at every position in the minors. That just isn't the case for us as it isn't the case for nearly every other MLB team. KW felt that those two players have proved enough that they wouldn't struggle to the point that they each have.

 

Look around the league at other teams who lost players to injury or have players who performed poorly just like the Sox. Jimmy Rollins has been out nearly all season and have had to play a couple of scrubs at SS. Is it Amaro's fault that they don't have a better SS option within the organization?

 

I don't think you automatically have major league caliber backups ready; that's absurd. My entire point is that building a roster by counting on projected production from those two based on a single great partial year each also seems a little far-fetched, especially in retrospect. We were sold that guys like Quentin and Beckham could contribute enough to this team offensively with their limited experience that dudes like Kotsay and Teahen would be non-issues. I thought going in we seemed a little thin, and I think I even remarked 'if either of those two has a bad year...' Well, here we are. The best GMs seem to have solutions when injury/performance issues come up...I'm really not sure KW has any in this situation, other than "dump, start over".

Edited June 11, 2010 by Greg Hibbard

[chetkincaid]

I don't think you automatically have major league caliber backups ready; that's absurd. My entire point is that building a roster by counting on projected production from those two based on a single great partial year each also seems a little far-fetched, especially in retrospect. We were sold that guys like Quentin and Beckham could contribute enough to this team offensively with their limited experience that dudes like Kotsay and Teahen would be non-issues. I thought going in we seemed a little thin, and I think I even remarked 'if either of those two has a bad year...' Well, here we are. The best GMs seem to have solutions when injury/performance issues come up...I'm really not sure KW has any in this situation, other than "dump, start over".

 

I'm not a Gordon Beckham hater, but EVERYBODY here thought (and still thinks) that he is an All Star. I had my questions, but I kept them to myself. But I remember that the major question mark was the DH postion and Alex Rios. I really don't think that the DH is the reason that the team sucks so bad, and Rios has been raking all season. But seriously, NO ONE saw Beckham falling off like this. LOL I rember every thing was BACON this and SLAYER that. He was supposed to be a sure thing.

 

And like someone said earlier, Quentin was almost the freaking MVP in 2008. That's A Rod, Justin Morneau, Joe Mauer territory.

[dmbjeff]

I don't think you automatically have major league caliber backups ready; that's absurd. My entire point is that building a roster by counting on projected production from those two based on a single great partial year each also seems a little far-fetched, especially in retrospect. We were sold that guys like Quentin and Beckham could contribute enough to this team offensively with their limited experience that dudes like Kotsay and Teahen would be non-issues. I thought going in we seemed a little thin, and I think I even remarked 'if either of those two has a bad year...' Well, here we are. The best GMs seem to have solutions when injury/performance issues come up...I'm really not sure KW has any in this situation, other than "dump, start over".

 

"If either of them have a bad year, here we are." You could say that about any team. This goes for any place where 2 of your supposed best players struggle, you end up with results like we have now. Only it wasn't just 2 of our best players struggling, it was 7 out of 9 starters being bad. It is 3 out of 5 SP's being bad. We have a bad closer with a horrible WHIP and opp AVG. When 11 out of your 15 most important pieces are bad, you will have a bad team, plain and simple. I don't know how KW was supposed to account for 11 guys who were supposed to be vital members of the team stinking up the joint. You obviously can't expect to go 15 for 15 in terms of hitting on players but to go 4 for 15, you have to put all the blame on the players. They all have track records suggestiing they are better than this and haven't showed it so far.

[southsider2k5]

"If either of them have a bad year, here we are." You could say that about any team. This goes for any place where 2 of your supposed best players struggle, you end up with results like we have now. Only it wasn't just 2 of our best players struggling, it was 7 out of 9 starters being bad. It is 3 out of 5 SP's being bad. We have a bad closer with a horrible WHIP and opp AVG. When 11 out of your 15 most important pieces are bad, you will have a bad team, plain and simple. I don't know how KW was supposed to account for 11 guys who were supposed to be vital members of the team stinking up the joint. You obviously can't expect to go 15 for 15 in terms of hitting on players but to go 4 for 15, you have to put all the blame on the players. They all have track records suggestiing they are better than this and haven't showed it so far.

 

You would pretty much have to have a 40 man roster of instant ML ready players.

[Greg Hibbard]

"If either of them have a bad year, here we are." You could say that about any team. This goes for any place where 2 of your supposed best players struggle, you end up with results like we have now. Only it wasn't just 2 of our best players struggling, it was 7 out of 9 starters being bad. It is 3 out of 5 SP's being bad. We have a bad closer with a horrible WHIP and opp AVG. When 11 out of your 15 most important pieces are bad, you will have a bad team, plain and simple. I don't know how KW was supposed to account for 11 guys who were supposed to be vital members of the team stinking up the joint. You obviously can't expect to go 15 for 15 in terms of hitting on players but to go 4 for 15, you have to put all the blame on the players. They all have track records suggestiing they are better than this and haven't showed it so far.

 

Again, you're taking this argument to a place I'm not going, and I'm not sure why. I'm specifically pointing out what aspect this I hold the GM accountable for. I don't hold him accountable for the years had by many of our other players. However, relying on given production from guys without the track record to show for it, and having a team then augmented by "undervalued" pieces, left us a little thin in my opinion. I also give KW all the credit in the world for Rios. I think Pierzynski, Jenks, Peavy should have been playing much much better and cast 100% of the responsibility for that on them.

[dmbjeff]

Again, you're taking this argument to a place I'm not going, and I'm not sure why. I'm specifically pointing out what aspect this I hold the GM accountable for. I don't hold him accountable for the years had by many of our other players. However, relying on given production from guys without the track record to show for it, and having a team then augmented by "undervalued" pieces, left us a little thin in my opinion. I also give KW all the credit in the world for Rios. I think Pierzynski, Jenks, Peavy should have been playing much much better and cast 100% of the responsibility for that on them.

 

I still don't know how you suggest KW could have had better fall back options for RF and 2B. Jones and Kotsay are Q's backups and Nix and Vizquel are Beckham's backups. The minors had Lillibridge and Retherford, both of which you know aren't better than Beckham. D2 isn't ready yet and Mitchell got injured in ST. What would you have done to have better fallback options?

[Vance Law]

Two former ballplayers; Oz was much better than KW as a player and I'm sure he lets him know that on a regular basis.

 

And Kenny is the more intelligent of the 2 and better understands the game of baseball. As a former limp-hitting, slick fielding shortstop, Ozzie erroneously seems to think that the game can be won by having the players who say "rah-rah" the most and run the hardest to first on their abundant weak groundouts.

 

 

The notion that we, the fans who, supply the organization with its financial resources, owe his f***ing snot-nosed kids a job and a paycheck is ridiculous. That he would publicly criticize the organization for not doing so up to his expectations is beyond embarrassing. Shut up, you f***ing clown (Ozzie).

Edited June 11, 2010 by Vance Law

[Jerksticks]

I agree with both of your points. There's no way Kenny is responsible for the players performing this poorly; we'd be good if they were all playing well. The problem is that our 2 best hitters going into the season (Quentin, Beckham) were question marks. With their salaries being so low, we needed to pay premium for a proven RBI bat or 2, thereby offsetting the question marks of Beckham/Quentin. That flexibility would have lightened the pressure on these 2 young, budding superstars who, for god's sake, don't need all this responsibility.

 

Took Derek Lee years to recover from the wrist injury, but he did. Now his problems might just be age.

[Balta1701]

I agree with both of your points. There's no way Kenny is responsible for the players performing this poorly; we'd be good if they were all playing well. The problem is that our 2 best hitters going into the season (Quentin, Beckham) were question marks. With their salaries being so low, we needed to pay premium for a proven RBI bat or 2, thereby offsetting the question marks of Beckham/Quentin. That flexibility would have lightened the pressure on these 2 young, budding superstars who, for god's sake, don't need all this responsibility.

 

Took Derek Lee years to recover from the wrist injury, but he did. Now his problems might just be age.

If the pitching were where it should be, we'd be right in the hunt, even with Quentin and Beckham underperforming.

[Milkman delivers]

That's what I would think too. But, the kid, and any kid for that mater, should go to college and get an education and learn to play baseball.

 

I think KW will be gone as Ozzie Guillen led the team to a World Series Championship and KW has stripped our farm system of talent. That is my opinion on it.

 

What f***ing sense does this make?

[Kalapse]

What f***ing sense does this make?

I like how managing a Championship team gives you a job for life but assembling one really means nothing.

[Jerksticks]

I like how managing a Championship team gives you a job for life but assembling one really means nothing.

 

No s***. I don't want to pick a side on this; hope we never really have to.

 

Let's hope the starting pitching staff keeps rolling, and get a huge bat. We can take this.

[greg775]

KW is frustrated that he gave Oz the team he wanted and they perform like this. Then you add his kid in there...

 

I think it's all about the kid in this one.

KW's manhood was threatened when he saw Oz's quote about the 50,000 and had to call him on it. Oz at that point was ready to punch him because KW's kid got drafted in the sixth round and Oz's so late.

 

Oz got what he wanted in the offseason so why should he be mad about the roster? This is ego driven.

 

I would agree that KW's calling out of Oz on Thome probably made ozzie despise KW entering the season, though.

Edited June 11, 2010 by greg775

[knightni]

What does that tell you about our amateur talent acquisition? That all falls on the GM to employ the right scouts and draft and sign the right players then make sure they are developed. If that is not happening, which it isnt, that is the GM's fault.

This is exactly why they have new scouts and a new scouting director in the last two years.

[RockRaines]

I'm not a Gordon Beckham hater, but EVERYBODY here thought (and still thinks) that he is an All Star. I had my questions, but I kept them to myself. But I remember that the major question mark was the DH postion and Alex Rios. I really don't think that the DH is the reason that the team sucks so bad, and Rios has been raking all season. But seriously, NO ONE saw Beckham falling off like this. LOL I rember every thing was BACON this and SLAYER that. He was supposed to be a sure thing.

 

And like someone said earlier, Quentin was almost the freaking MVP in 2008. That's A Rod, Justin Morneau, Joe Mauer territory.

Thats because its a freak occurrence. If you are trying to saw "I told you so" I will enjoy saving this when the guy is producing over and over for the White Sox for the next several years.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

I can't blame KW at all. Ozzie dissed the Sox organization by saying he'd pay his son to go to college over the Sox. That in itself is not a terrible thing to say if he had worded it in a way that stressed education over baseball when you're drafted that low. Don't think the fact that the Sox drafted him that low was the issue . KW is very big on not saying anything disrespectful about the organization. That was the issue about the tweets and Ozzie's ill-chosen words added fuel to that particular fire.

[Dick Allen]

I can't blame KW at all. Ozzie dissed the Sox organization by saying he'd pay his son to go to college over the Sox. That in itself is not a terrible thing to say if he had worded it in a way that stressed education over baseball when you're drafted that low. Don't think the fact that the Sox drafted him that low was the issue . KW is very big on not saying anything disrespectful about the organization. That was the issue about the tweets and Ozzie's ill-chosen words added fuel to that particular fire.

I thought Ozzie with the 50k thing was out of line athough his comments did appear a lot more tame than the headline would suggest. I did read something today where Ozzie said Ozney was only going to sign if he was chosen in the first 6 rounds. It has to be that number because that is where the Sox selected KW's son. Now if Ozzie has 50k to give his kid to go to Niketown and thinks his this top of the line talent that's going to be a great player, why doesn't he give the kid the difference between what the Sox would give Ozney and what they gave KW Jr. and watch him turn into a star.

 

I don't buy the almost coming to blows comment. KW would kill Ozzie and Ozzie knows it. He's not that dumb.

[fathom]

Cowley said Garcia and Konerko confirmed the blow-up. Also, both Stone and Cowley suggested Hahn will be replacing KW sooner rather than later, and Ozzie's going nowhere.

[Balta1701]

Cowley said Garcia and Konerko confirmed the blow-up. Also, both Stone and Cowley suggested Hahn will be replacing KW sooner rather than later, and Ozzie's going nowhere.

So, you're saying that Hahn will soon be the GM of the Bulls and Ozzie is going to Thibodeau's staff?

[whitesoxfan101]

JR obviously doesn't want to fire either of them.

 

I'm sure he'll tell them both to learn to get along or they'll both be out of jobs.

 

My rosy prediction is we get on a roll here and everyone finds a way to get along.

 

We could only be so lucky.

 

This team sucks, is poorly run on the baseball side, and is irrelevant in it's own city (5th most popular team in Chicago right now.) That, along with all of this KW/Ozzie drama, simply can't last. Something has to be done.

 

If we're only going to fire one though, firing KW isn't too bad though. He has a longer resume of trouble at his job, and if we brought in a GM that doesn't give in to Ozzie's idiotic, NL style managing demands while also doing his job well...maybe Ozzie can look like a competent manager and we can look like a competent team again. They should both be gone though obviously.

Edited June 12, 2010 by whitesoxfan101

[Dick Allen]

Cowley said Garcia and Konerko confirmed the blow-up. Also, both Stone and Cowley suggested Hahn will be replacing KW sooner rather than later, and Ozzie's going nowhere.

Wasn't Hahn one of Oney's targets in the original twittergate? Oney is not so bright, I'm sure he's being fed info by Ozzie. I always considered Hahn a viable GM, but a GM should have his own manager. Ozzie apparently looks at the back of your baseball card to determine who knows what. Since Hahn doesn't have one, that will be a huge problem especially considering how proud Ozzie and the rest of the Guillens will be if they are successful in removing his boss.

 

Ozzie has been insubordinate even during spring training. I think JR needs to sit down with him and re-explain the chain of command. This whole thing seems like it would be a disaster for the Sox, but they have played their best the past 3 games.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Cowley said Garcia and Konerko confirmed the blow-up. Also, both Stone and Cowley suggested Hahn will be replacing KW sooner rather than later, and Ozzie's going nowhere.

 

 

I would have a tough time dealing with that decision as a fan.