The Buyers Thread

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Have you been following Tyler Flowers at all, or did you just take some of the scouting concerns from when we first traded for him, and used that to form your opinion? Because since the trade he was awarded a best defensive catcher award, has lit up the minors and has gotten praise for how he calls games.

I don't get a chance to watch any minor league games, but I'm basing my opinion on a combination of the scouting reports from when we first got him, the little bit I saw of him on televised spring training games and the few appearances he made with the Sox last year, the reports of him struggling mightily for the first couple of months at AAA this season, the opinion on his defensive abilities of a guy who posts on another Sox forum who was a former catcher and puts a heavy priority on defense in general and the track record of other Sox top prospects of recent years.

 

Even the great Gordon Beckham, who by all accounts is a far superior prospect than Flowers has been struggling in the big leagues after being brought up quickly. I can't see getting rid of AJ for some mid tier or less prospect just to watch another Brian Anderson, Joe Borchard, Josh Fields, etc. struggle to learn at the big league level.

 

Either trade Flowers while his value is so high (if other scouts really have the same opinion of him as some here), or let him prove himself ready in AAA (not just a hot couple of weeks after a s***ty two months) before handing him AJ's job as starting catcher in the Major Leagues.

[CaliSoxFanViaSWside]

Beckham and Quentin is just too much affordable future potential to give up for Tejada and Markakis.

Have you looked at the Markakis contract? He's going to be making $15 Million per year in 2013 and 2014.

If you're going to spend that kind of money, why not just acquire a free agent and keep your young affordable players?

Because most free agents are older. Dumping MB and AJ and Teahen relieves a lot of salary so they would have to go.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

I had a dream about a mega 3-team trade happening for the Sox. It went something like......

 

Sox-Astros-Mariners

 

Sox trade John Danks, Jordan Danks, Dan Hudson, and Dayan Viciedo.

 

Danks, Danks, and Viciedo go to the M's for Cliff Lee.

Hudson goes to the Astros for Lance Berkman.

 

Not sure how the other pieces had shaken out between the M's and Astros, but the bottom line was the Sox got Cliff Lee (kept him away from Minnesota), and then pulled in Berkman for the DH spot.

 

This trade would be on the contingent that the Sox could resign Lee, much like in the Halladay deal where the Phillies had to sign Halladay to complete the trade.

[BigSqwert]

You do a lot of dreaming. Get a job.

 

[Kalapse]

Yeesh, I want nothing to do with Lee in free agency. I'm against giving most any starting pitcher 4+ years of big time money but Lee especially: 32 years old and looking at Sabathia money (probably 2 less years to account for age so 5/$115M), not a chance. I'll just ignore the fact that you're also dealing away Danks in your crazy ass dream you fool.

[ChiliIrishHammock24]

You do a lot of dreaming. Get a job.

 

 

I actuallly don't dream very often, but obviously this sox team has me thinking about stuff like this! Also, it was a suprisingly in-depth dream that I was able to retain all that, although I might have transposed a player or two, who knows.

 

But really, Kenny going and acquiring Lee sounds like something he would do in the sense of being completely unexpected, and a huge move. Although I'm afraid of what we would give up, and the money he would want to sign for. Berkman seems like a much more sane idea.

[chetkincaid]

Dream? I would call that a nightmare - unless you're a Mariners or Astros fan.

[CanOfCorn]

This is what I meant by this winning streak happening at the worst possible time. Do you honestly believe that the team you’ve been watching for the last three months is an anomaly? That just because we can beat the s*** out of the Cubs, (a task that others teams like the Pirates have performed admirably), that we’re suddenly going to take off, make up 7.5 games on a team that’s not only better than us, but are fully capable of making the same moves to improve their team that people are suggesting in this thread? The optimist in me would love to think that is the start of that big turnaround, the realist thinks of losing to the Indians, the fact the guys like Beckham and Q show little promise at the plate, and the fact that our Manager and General Manager are locked in a power struggle as we speak, Going out and making lateral moves to make a suicide run at second place is not going to accomplish anything. Just like delaying the inevitable by keeping guys like AJ is only going to serve to set this organization up for failure now and into the future.

 

 

Um...yes...? Sorry TB...had to do it.

[ThunderBolt]

Um...yes...? Sorry TB...had to do it.

Hindsight is 20-20. This caught a lot of people with their pants down, myself included. I'm really, really happy that i was wrong.

[southsider2k5]

Hindsight is 20-20. This caught a lot of people with their pants down, myself included. I'm really, really happy that i was wrong.

 

You could at least pull your pants up now...

[ThunderBolt]

You could at least pull your pants up now...

I've got some really nice airflow going on... i'll think about it.

[beautox]

I would like to see a under the radar move like this: Gabby Sanchez + Taylor Tankersley to the Sox for Morel, Griffth and PTBNL(trayce thompson)

 

that gives the sox a nice looking 1B bat in the vein of Mark Grace and the second LH for the pen in the LOOGY role and an insurance policy if Sale can't make it up in the very near future.

 

Marlins have Logan Morrison

[knightni]

Chad Tracy got DFA'ed. He might be better than Viciedo right now and Kotsay.

[Kalapse]

Chad Tracy got DFA'ed. He might be better than Viciedo right now and Kotsay.

He's really not.

[chw42]

I would like to see a under the radar move like this: Gabby Sanchez + Taylor Tankersley to the Sox for Morel, Griffth and PTBNL(trayce thompson)

 

that gives the sox a nice looking 1B bat in the vein of Mark Grace and the second LH for the pen in the LOOGY role and an insurance policy if Sale can't make it up in the very near future.

 

Marlins have Logan Morrison

 

Are you serious?

 

With that package, they can probably get LaRoche.

[iamshack]

SoxAce would have a Zambrano if we traded Trayce Thompson for that package...

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

IMO, we should try to do Pierre + Linebrink + Teahen + prospects (no one all that great) to the Cubs for Zambrano and $9.5M cash in 2012.

 

Pierre + Linebrink + Teahen = $12.25M in 2010, $15.25M in 2011, $5.5M in 2012

Zambrano's deal = $17.875M in 2010, $17.875M in 2011, $18M in 2012, potential $19.25M vesting PO in 2013. The PO ONLY vests in the event that Zambrano finishes top-4 in the 2012 Cy Young polling AND is healthy at the end of the season which actually makes it a very team-friendly vesting option as opposed to typical Cubbie vesting options.

 

Sox would be paying Zambrano above their 3-headed monster of Teahen/Pierre/Linebrink the following: a prorated $5.65M in 2010, $2.625M in 2011, $3M in 2012 plus taking on the potential vesting PO.

 

Ozzie is the one guy who could potentially straighten this dude out and get him back to the #2-#3 SP form he used to be, and Z would without a doubt waive his full NTC to play for Ozzie. Ozzie would be his #1 choice anyway. If Ozzie could get Z's head on straight and settle him down this could be another epic and completely unfair steal for Kenny "Scorched Earth/Rape + Pillage" Williams.

 

I'd do it today if possible. Ozzie talks Z into going down to the minors for a couple starts to get right, and then we do whatever is necessary at that time (6-man rotation? piggy-back? trade?). In the meanwhile, Hudson comes up and takes Linebrink's roster spot, Jordan Danks temporarily comes up to take Pierre's roster spot, Threets takes over for Williams, Kotsay/Jones goes to left, Viciedo takes over at DH, and Kenny works on picking up a stopgap LF/RF lead-off hitter and a LH DH.

[WCSox]

I would do that deal if Zambrano simply had anger issues. But I don't know what he's going to be worth on the mound going forward.

 

[sin city sox fan]

I don't see a deal for Zambrano this season.....where would he pitch? I don't think he'd want to be coming out of the pen and there's just no room in the rotation (I wouldn't have never guessed that I'd take Freddy over Z before the season started).

 

Plus, you can't trade Pierre without getting another leadoff hitter (either in return or in another trade). Whether you like him or not, we have no one else for that spot in the order at this time.

 

If we make a trade now, it has to be for a DH, a LH reliever, or a strong lead off hitter.....not a starting pitcher.

[greg775]

IMO, we should try to do Pierre + Linebrink + Teahen + prospects (no one all that great) to the Cubs for Zambrano and $9.5M cash in 2012.

 

Zambrano had no velocity yesterday. If that's Zambrano, no thanks.

 

As far as that trade, that's kind of funny. It's like a pretend trade you'd make as a kid with friends. Throw in some horrible horrible players (no offense, Juan, you've been pretty damn good since your rough start) in a pretend trade for some other player. The Cubs would have to be idiots to want Pierre, Linebrink and Teahen. Might as well throw Lilly in there and Randy Williams as well.

Edited June 26, 2010 by greg775

[Balta1701]

What y'all ought to realize out of those posts is how pathetically bad the Cubs's bad contracts really are. We could be dumping every one of our bad contracts for one of theirs, and we'd still be giving up too much.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Zambrano had no velocity yesterday. If that's Zambrano, no thanks.

 

As far as that trade, that's kind of funny. It's like a pretend trade you'd make as a kid with friends. Throw in some horrible horrible players (no offense, Juan, you've been pretty damn good since your rough start) in a pretend trade for some other player. The Cubs would have to be idiots to want Pierre, Linebrink and Teahen. Might as well throw Lilly in there and Randy Williams as well.

The first part kind of answers the second part.

 

The Cubs wouldn't necessarily *want* any of our crappy players, but their backs might be against the wall.

 

-Zambrano is paid a ton of money per season

-He's under contract through 2012 with a vesting option for 2013

-Cubs are bogged down in bad deals

-Anger management issues keep popping up, and serious ones at that

-Fans are tired of him

-Velocity is down

-Been in the bullpen, probably (haven't looked at the numbers) the most expensive reliever in baseball over the last several years and maybe top-5 in baseball history (Zito was in the pen IIRC, but who else sent to the pen was owed MORE money than Z?)

-Has a reputation for being uncontrollable

-Is becoming an embarrassment to an organization which is an embarrassment in itself (could argue it's a good match here)

-Has 100% final say on any and every possible trade given his full NTC

-Management can not get through to him and what team other than the Sox would actually believe their manager could?

 

Put that all together and it's easy to see an offer as s***ty as the one I proposed being the best offer available.

 

The Sox would be taking a major gamble here, but I'd f***ing do it given the potential upside and the fact that worst case scenario we're still not losing much since Teahen, Linebrink, and Pierre are sunk costs already.

 

All that said, what will likely happen is the Cubs will make Z give a public apology, they'll send him to a counselor, the Cubs FO + announcers + Z himself will pay lip service to the fans & they'll stupidly buy it, the Cubs will send Lou packing in the mean time, and the Cubs will run Zambrano back out there hoping to raise his value enough to the point where they can dump him by only eating *half* his contract.

Edited June 26, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[BigSqwert]

And if D2 becomes another Wise at the leadoff spot we're back to our 2009 woes.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

What y'all ought to realize out of those posts is how pathetically bad the Cubs's bad contracts really are. We could be dumping every one of our bad contracts for one of theirs, and we'd still be giving up too much.

Yeah. And the funny part is that Z's isn't even the worst.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

And if D2 becomes another Wise at the leadoff spot we're back to our 2009 woes.

Why would D2 be leading off? Kenny would have to get someone. There are all kinds of 4th OF out there who are having better seasons than Pierre is who would be available right now for scratch.