The Buyers Thread

[spiderman]

Why on earth would we be a buyer? And even if a legit answer to that question can be found, what do we have in the minors to trade for help?

 

Has there been any updated minor league rankings? Before this season, the team was hopeful about Jordan Danks, Gordan Beckham, Jarrod Mitchell, Dan Hudson, Tyler Flowers and Dyan Viceido as being potential major leaguers in the near future. Of course, we know how Beckham has played this season and about Mitchell's injury, but Flowers and Danks have struggled this season, and even Hudson hasn't been as good statistically this season. It's only a few months, but who are the top 5 or 10 minor league prospects as of today? Still the same? A new guy or two added? Realistically, are any of these guys considered top of the line prospects outside of Beckham?

[ThunderBolt]

The problem with buying is that the only pieces we have (Flowers, Hudson, and Viciedo) are guys that should probably be starting for this ballclub in a few weeks. Otherwise, if you think you can get anything of notes for Jordan Danks, John Shelby, Chris Marrero, and Jeff Marquez, then bully for you. I appreciate optimism, but not at the expense of the team I root for. I see a team that’s not built to win this division, and has done nothing to prove otherwise throughout the course of the year. I don’t see making trades for older talent in an attempt to get back in a race we fell out of two months ago, a good idea. What we need to do is clear salary and get some young talent, so we can start forming a plan for 2011.

[spiderman]

To make the team better this year, and also next year. I expect any of these moves to be accompanied by a bit of selling as well.

 

This is sort of how I feel. Kenny Williams is not going to go into full rebuild mode even if they fall into the sellers category. Personally, I think the season has been over now for over a month, and I'm not about to let their first winning streak of the season change what I've seen for close to 2 and half months. I expect them to be sellers - they aren't going to have much payroll flexibility, and probably can't afford to let Konerko, Putz and maybe a few others walk without adding a guy or two who they think can compete for a major league job next season and maybe help some this year.

Edited June 13, 2010 by spiderman

[spiderman]

If he was healthy, Aramis Ramirez would fix our 3B problem.

 

He's got a massive contract, and one that the Sox can't afford.

[Lillian]

I never try my hand at this because I'm no expert on every player on every team but Quentin , Beckham and Teahan for Tejada and Markakis. Tejada only has a one yr. contract for $6 mil. so he can depart after this year. Markasis is signed for a while and doesn't get really expensive till next yr. Trade Buerhle to anyone who would take his salary and plug Hudson into his spot. Not that Baltimore would ever trade Markakis especially for 2 struggling players but its possible for Beckham and Q to become very good players again. Of course next year we'd be looking for a 3rd baseman and a 2nd baseman but Nix ,Vizquel and Lillibridge can play it this yr. Trade AJ for w/e you can get and we get even more salary relief. I know Flowers probably isn't ready but have to get salary relief somewhere. We improve RF and 3rd base D get OBP and consistency from Markakis. A platoon of Vizquel and Nix at 2nd puts up better numbers atm than Beckham does and equal or better D.

 

Baltimore is most likely building around Markakis so I know its silly to think they would trade him but one can dream.

 

Beckham and Quentin is just too much affordable future potential to give up for Tejada and Markakis.

Have you looked at the Markakis contract? He's going to be making $15 Million per year in 2013 and 2014.

If you're going to spend that kind of money, why not just acquire a free agent and keep your young affordable players?

 

[ptatc]

In some ways, yes, and in others, no.

Andruw Jones: No. He was good when he was healthy. Now he's not, so now he's not good anymore. But he wasn't expected to remain healthy. No anomaly.

Alex Rios & PK: No. They are very talented players who have shown what they can do in the past. They won't continue to be as amazing as they have been, but they are perfectly capable of having very productive years. No anomaly.

Peavy, Mark, Gavin: Yes, anomalies. They're better than this.

Linebrink: No, because he can be serviceable if not outright dominating in the first half. It'll be an anomaly if he is somewhat respectable in the 2nd.

Teahen and Pierre: No because they suck.

Freddy: No because he's got balls and has shown he can pitch off a much depleted fastball before.

Sergio: Yes, very much so, and he'll have to come down at some point.

Jenks: Yes, because he's (if healthy) much better than he has been up to this point.

Thornton, Putz, Pena: No, all doing just about what was expected.

AJ, Beckham, Quentin: Yes, they're all better than the way they've played. I'm confident in AJ and Gordon reversing this, and I believe they currently are, but CQ may need another change of scenery.

Williams, Kotsay, Vizquel, Nix, Castro, etc.: No, because this is about what was expected from them.

 

In short, if we get a couple pieces, and if our good players who started the season by sucking can start playing better baseball, then we are a much, much better team.

 

I would believe, however, that we'd be dead and buried if we played in the AL East however. But we don't, so good for us, because with a nice run we can catch those Twins.

 

 

 

Not just that. We have lots of talented players on our roster. We're not making runs off players like Carlos Silva having improbably good seasons. We've got some really good players who aren't performing and a couple bad ones who also aren't performing. We need a bat or two and some rebounds.

 

 

 

Lateral moves??? Who said anything about a lateral move? A lateral move, IMO, would be like trading a good setup man in Santos for a good RF in Cody Ross, for example. Yes, we address one area, but we deplete another. We don't need to make lateral moves when we can package a couple minor leaguers who are NOT contributing at all and deal them off for someone who is a veteran and currently producing.

 

Please tell me how trading AJ for some MiLB player who best case scenario probably has to fight for a bench/relief spot on the 2011 ballclub hurts our future. Please tell me how you think MLB pitchers are going to bow down to Tyroid and not eat him alive. Please tell me how holding on to a capable major league player hurts our future. Please tell me how contending in general hurts our future. Do you really think Tyler Flowers is a good enough baseball player to warrant a free reign at the MLB level? Do you really think Tyler Flowers is so good that we should abandon any thoughts of trying to salvage the season just so this wunderkind can play? I don't. Not at all.

 

Agreed.

 

The problem with the Sox isn't that they have bad players. It's that they have good players who are really underperforming. It's still an extreme longshot that they can get back and win the division. However, this team is talented enough with a good core for next year if they fall short. Adding a couple of pieces would go a long way towards that. Trading AJ would be a good start since he is one of the underperformers and won't be back next year anyway. How much worse could Flowers hit? We might find out.

[knightni]

He's got a massive contract, and one that the Sox can't afford.

What part of his contract goes against my point that the Sox could use him?

 

Send them Linebrink, Teahen, and a couple low level prospects. That only adds 6 mil to payroll.

 

 

[spiderman]

What part of his contract goes against my point that the Sox could use him?

 

Send them Linebrink, Teahen, and a couple low level prospects. That only adds 6 mil to payroll.

 

We could use a lot of guys, but we can't afford most of them. You can't discount the contract, that's my point. I don't think the Cubs want our trash in return for him despite his struggles this season.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

My prediction is that we go over .500 when we go 43-42. We're going 15-11 over our next 26, but that'll have us in contention for the #2 spot in the division on July 11th after beating KC at home. From there we'll make our run because KW will wake up from his hibernation and go out and acquire us a player or two. We'll hit a good stretch from there and we'll be no more than 5 back at the end of July. This is how it's all going to play out. We'll chase the Twinkies down in August as they fade like they have for the last two years, but our pitching staff is just going to get stronger, and we'll end the season as division champs who clinch late. Teams will fear us in the playoffs.

I like the way you think. I hope you're right.

 

BTW, do you really think there is a chance to get Luke Scott? If so, what do you think it would take? I really wanted that guy all offseason to be part of the "rotating DH" and fourth outfielder.

[caulfield12]

They're definitely not going to add someone like Ramirez, you can forget that idea.

 

And the Cubs definitely would have absolute no reason whatsover to want Linebrink, Pierre, Teahen, etc.

 

The only thing I can think of is that we were 7 games behind the Royals at ASB 2003 and the Twins were 7 1/2 games back and look how quickly things shifted. Of course, the Twins are a much deeper and more talented team than the "smoke and mirrors" 03 Royals, but the example still stands of two teams blowing by the front-runner in the 2nd half.

 

Same thing happened in 2006 with the Twins chasing down the Sox and Tigers.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Trading AJ would be a good start since he is one of the underperformers and won't be back next year anyway. How much worse could Flowers hit?

You don't want to know. And I don't want to see how much worse Flowers might be defensively. Re-sign AJ if he is willing to sign at a reduced salary for the next couple of years.

[caulfield12]

I like the way you think. I hope you're right.

 

BTW, do you really think there is a chance to get Luke Scott? If so, what do you think it would take? I really wanted that guy all offseason to be part of the "rotating DH" and fourth outfielder.

 

 

Who exactly are we going to trade to get Luke Scott?

 

Why would they want someone like Jenks, Putz, Linebrink, Konerko, etc.?

 

Why would we trade any of our young prospects for Scott...and who could we actually trade that the Orioles would want besides Hudson (Viciedo isn't going anywhere after that signing bonus), Beckham, Quentin, Ramirez, etc.

 

Trading Quentin for Scott? That's a lateral move, at best.

 

Having suffered both plantar fasciitis and from wrist injuries, I think he deserves at least one more half season before we pull the plug.

 

 

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Please tell me how trading AJ for some MiLB player who best case scenario probably has to fight for a bench/relief spot on the 2011 ballclub helps our future. Please tell me how you think MLB pitchers are going to bow down to Tyroid and not eat him alive. Please tell me how holding on to a capable major league player hurts our future. Please tell me how contending in general hurts our future. Do you really think Tyler Flowers is a good enough baseball player to warrant a free reign at the MLB level? Do you really think Tyler Flowers is so good that we should abandon any thoughts of trying to salvage the season just so this wunderkind can play? I don't. Not at all.

I agree with this 100%.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

Who exactly are we going to trade to get Luke Scott?

 

Why would they want someone like Jenks, Putz, Linebrink, Konerko, etc.?

 

Why would we trade any of our young prospects for Scott...and who could we actually trade that the Orioles would want besides Hudson (Viciedo isn't going anywhere after that signing bonus), Beckham, Quentin, Ramirez, etc.

 

Trading Quentin for Scott? That's a lateral move, at best.

That's why I asked the questions if he thought Scott could be had and if so, what would it cost to get him.

 

Maybe the Orioles would be interested in the great Tyler Flowers?

[Kalapse]

What part of his contract goes against my point that the Sox could use him?

 

Send them Linebrink, Teahen, and a couple low level prospects. That only adds 6 mil to payroll.

So the Cubs are going to sell low on one of the best players in baseball in exchange for our garbage? How does that make any sense? And Teahen and Linebrink over the next 2 years = $15.75M, Ramirez for next year and a buyout for 2012: $16.6M. Even a flimsy "salary dump" argument doesn't work.

[caulfield12]

KW isn't going to just cut bait on Flowers when he's the centerpiece of the Vazquez move and has been going through some huge mechanical/swing changes.

 

I still think this is AJ's last year in Chicago.

 

You're more likely to see Castro/Lucy than AJ in Chicago in 2011 if Flowers fails.

Edited June 13, 2010 by caulfield12

[caulfield12]

So the Cubs are going to sell low on one of the best players in baseball in exchange for our garbage? How does that make any sense? And Teahen and Linebrink over the next 2 years = $15.75M, Ramirez for next year and a buyout for 2012: $16.6M. Even a flimsy "salary dump" argument doesn't work.

 

 

Well, it does make more sense than the original Ramirez trade to the Cubs from PITT, but not by more than a sliver.

[knightni]

So the Cubs are going to sell low on one of the best players in baseball in exchange for our garbage? How does that make any sense? And Teahen and Linebrink over the next 2 years = $15.75M, Ramirez for next year and a buyout for 2012: $16.6M. Even a flimsy "salary dump" argument doesn't work.

No, I really don't believe it either. I'm just posting s*** in the Buyers thread to keep everyone's hope up.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

KW isn't going to just cut bait on Flowers when he's the centerpiece of the Vazquez move and has been going through some huge mechanical/swing changes.

Not that the Orioles would be interested in Flowers, but hypothetically speaking, if KW can trade Flowers for a Luke Scott I don't think he would be viewed as simply cutting bait on Flowers but using him to bring in a quality player. That's usually how KW operates.

[Kalapse]

Not that the Orioles would be interested in Flowers, but hypothetically speaking, if KW can trade Flowers for a Luke Scott I don't think he would be viewed as simply cutting bait on Flowers but using him to bring in a quality player. That's usually how KW operates.

So if we're looking at Flowers and don't think his future production will be good enough for him to stick as an everday catcher the Orioles are suppose to deal one of their most valuable pieces for him hoping that he's able to stick at 1B or DH?

[ThunderBolt]

You don't want to know. And I don't want to see how much worse Flowers might be defensively. Re-sign AJ if he is willing to sign at a reduced salary for the next couple of years.

Have you been following Tyler Flowers at all, or did you just take some of the scouting concerns from when we first traded for him, and used that to form your opinion? Because since the trade he was awarded a best defensive catcher award, has lit up the minors and has gotten praise for how he calls games.

[daggins]

Most of what i've heard about Flowers is that he is slow and awkward behind the plate due to his size. Haven't heard anything about his game calling but he does have a strong arm.

[South Side Fireworks Man]

So if we're looking at Flowers and don't think his future production will be good enough for him to stick as an everday catcher the Orioles are suppose to deal one of their most valuable pieces for him hoping that he's able to stick at 1B or DH?

I don't think there's a chance the Orioles would trade Scott for Flowers. Read what I posted in response to Caulfield more carefully. After I posted in teal that the Orioles might be interested in the "great" (sarcasm) Tyler Flowers, he suggested that KW wouldn't trade Flowers for Scott because KW wouldn't want to "cut bait" on Flowers after being the centerpiece of the Vazquez deal. My response was that although I don't think the Orioles would be interested, if they did make that trade, hypothetically speaking, KW would not be seen as "cutting bait" on Flowers but as using him to get a great return in value.

 

Clear now?

[ThunderBolt]

Most of what i've heard about Flowers is that he is slow and awkward behind the plate due to his size. Haven't heard anything about his game calling but he does have a strong arm.

Read this article: http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...sp&c_id=cws

Some choice sections:

The best way [to get to know a new player] is to sit back and watch and see what he does -- how he moves, how he receives, his footwork and all that," said Orton. "When he came over, people were saying he was a little rough defensively, but I tried to put that out of my mind so I could see for myself and not have any preconceived judgments "My first impression was, 'Wow, this kid has good hands!" Orton said. "And that's big for me, because you can work to get better with that, but a kid has to have good hands to start with to be able to catch in the big leagues."

"I watched him as we did our drills, plays at the plate, blocking balls in the dirt, footwork drills," Orton said. "And he was so athletic in all those areas that I knew at that point it was just going to be minor adjustments and working with him about the 'other' side of catching, handling the pitching staff."

 

And:

"The more I see him catch, the more I'm impressed with his demeanor with the pitching staff, and in fact I'm jealous in a way that I didn't have that same demeanor when I caught," said Orton, who spent five seasons in the big leagues. "He's really involved with them and has a good feel for pitchers' different personalities. He seems to work well with all of them."

[Kalapse]

I don't think there's a chance the Orioles would trade Scott for Flowers. Read what I posted in response to Caulfield more carefully. After I posted in teal that the Orioles might be interested in the "great" (sarcasm) Tyler Flowers, he suggested that KW wouldn't trade Flowers for Scott because KW wouldn't want to "cut bait" on Flowers after being the centerpiece of the Vazquez deal. My response was that although I don't think the Orioles would be interested, if they did make that trade, hypothetically speaking, KW would not be seen as "cutting bait" on Flowers but as using him to get a great return in value.

 

Clear now?

You're right, didn't follow the discussion close enough.