If we do get back in this. . .

[hogan873]

I'm really not a Pierre basher, but your info is incorrect. Juan Pierre has a .315 OBP. The last 28 days his OBP is .314 with a .213 BA. He hasn't turned it around. He had a hot streak, then a cold one. He hasn't been good this year. A leadoff hitter has to do better than he's doing.

Shoulda done my homework. Yeah, he sucks.

 

I love breaking down stats, and I took the time to check out a break down of Pierre (which I admittedly did not do before my previous post). You're right about his performance in the last 28 days, however in June he's hitting .258 with an OBP of .347. Still not great, but okay. And looking at this, I would tend to agree that he is streaky.

 

What I was getting at with my previous post (and this one) is that Pierre is not this team's biggest problem, and there is no way that he becomes a $7 million bench guy. Everytime I see a post talking about acquiring a power hitter that is an OFer and sending Pierre to the bench, I just roll my eyes. Yes, I think a lead-off guy has to be better, but the Sox don't have a better option right now. Should they roll Kotsay out there again, or how about Jones?

Edited June 22, 2010 by pittshoganerkoff

[hogan873]

From what I saw of Adam Dunn, he's not nearly as good a defensive 1st baseman as Konerko. However, having him the lineup as a DH would be very nice.

[chw42]

Quentin can't be that bad..

 

Bobby Abreu sitll playing RF in LAA?

 

Quentin is Jermaine Dye bad and has been for the past two years.

 

Those foot problems have really slowed him down.

[chw42]

Juan won me over with the hit against the Cubs. A no hitter against them really truly would have sucked.

 

Also I may be mistaken but it seems like he's been getting on base 2-3 time a game a lot of late.

And the good D in left is great.

He's OK. I would rather have somebody else next year, though, but he's won me over even though I guess his RBI totals are horrific.

 

It's that easy to win you over...?

 

If only you were a hot chick.

[caulfield12]

Quentin is Jermaine Dye bad and has been for the past two years.

 

Those foot problems have really slowed him down.

 

This is the second time I've had plantar fasciitis in my life, I got it from playing badminton everyday here in China.

 

It sucks, it's not as bad as a kidney stone or a pulled rib cage muscle, but ALMOST.

 

The thing is, you can't survive in everyday, commonplace life without putting some weight on your foot. Imagine an athlete and how much more pressure there is on the foot/feet. Mine is at the back (tissue/ligament at the bottom) of the left heel. The first time I hurt it, I think it was pretty mild, I went back to trying to play badminton and then I really tore through quite a bit of the ligament the second time.

 

You can take pain killers or have a cortisone injection, but it takes months to go away completely (the first time I did it hitting the 1B bag akwardly and also landing with all my weight at the heel instead of evenly balanced landing).

 

It's why I have a lot of sympathy for Quentin, the wrist and the foot can really affect you. You start overcompensating to relieve the pain and protect the injury and then you end up straining another part of your leg.

 

 

So I think selling low on CQ would be a huge mistake, just like buying high on Corey Hart.

Edited June 22, 2010 by caulfield12

[BigSqwert]

Quentin can't be that bad..

Oh yes he is.

[caulfield12]

A LOT better. At this point, DeJesus is a guy who is at least a 2-3 win upgrade over Pierre.

 

And Carlos isn't producing runs, he's just driving them in.

 

Run production and RBI differ in a A LOT of ways.

 

When's the last time KW made a trade in the same season that basically acknowledged a previous mistake (acquiring Pierre)? Teahen getting injured might have been a blessing in disguise (like Owens in 2008), because Viciedo and Vizquel just might be the ticket as on overall offensive/defensive package (yeah, I can't believe I just said that).

 

I also don't think we'lll see him on the bench, he'll either be starting in LF/leading off or no longer with the White Sox, as long as Ozzie's manager.

 

And trading within the division, you know they'll ask for Hudson/Flowers.

 

So then I guess DeJesus is your leadoff hitter and Pierre is benched. Does that really do a whole lot of good for our offense? Or Quentin sits a lot more and DeJesus plays RF or CF.

 

 

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

IMO:

 

1. Trade Pierre + Linebrink + prospects for Fukudome. Pierre makes a prorated $3M this year + $5M next year, Linebrink makes a prorated $5M this year + $5.5M in 2011, and Fukudome makes a prorated $13M this year and $13.5M next year. The Cubs save a bit of money this year, they save $3M next year, and they'd get some prospects plus a spot for Colvin. For us, we get Fukudome at a very good contract value ($3M above what we're flushing down the toilet in 2011 for Pierre and Linebrink), we improve our OBP and defense while adding a lefty bat and getting a legitimate lead-off hitter, and we get to screw the Cubs too. Great move.

 

2. Trade prospects for Alex Gonzalez of Toronto. Alex is a natural SS but we could use him at 3B. He'll give us great defense where we need it without having to take on a lot of salary or surrender a ton of prospects, and along with Vizquel he should turn our backup SS/everyday 3B situation into a positive. Alex doesn't add much for OBP but he does have pop so that would make the 3B position be a bit more respectable offensively.

 

3. Deal prospects for Adam LaRoche. He was traded for pretty much nothing in the past, but he's a very underrated player who performs well in the second half, and in terms of prospects he should come cheap. IMO he could be just as good as Luke Scott in the second half, if not better, but for half the price or less. The DBacks should eat some salary.

 

4. Release Williams and call up Threets temporarily until Sale is ready. Call up Hudson to replace Linebrink in the bullpen. Make a decision between Jones and Viciedo as the RH pinch hitter. If it's Viciedo then we don't have a backup CF meaning Kotsay would have to play there if Rios gets the day off. So Ozzie wouldn't want to give Alex a bunch of days off, and when he did they'd have to be at home and not at, say, Comerica.

 

Lineup:

L Fukudome RF

R Gonzalez 3B

R Rios CF

R Konerko 1B

L LaRoche DH

R Quentin LF

L Pierzynski C

R Beckham 2B

R Ramirez SS

 

Bench:

Castro C

Vizquel 2B/SS/3B

Viciedo 1B/3B/DH/LF (try it out, why not?) - RH PH

Kotsay OF - LH PH

 

Pen:

Jenks CL

Putz SU

Thornton SU

Pena RSP

Threets/Sale LSP

Santos MR

Hudson LR

 

Much better team IMO, and we should be able to afford all these guys without draining the farm.

 

**Edited contract info

Edited June 22, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[LittleHurt05]

IMO:

 

1. Trade Pierre + Linebrink + prospects for Fukudome. Pierre makes a prorated $3M this year + $3.5M next year, Linebrink makes a prorated $5M this year + $5.5M in 2011, and Fukudome makes a prorated $13M this year and $13.5M next year. The Cubs save a bit of money this year, they save $4.5M next year, and they'd get some prospects plus a spot for Colvin. For us, we get Fukudome at a very good contract value ($4.5M above what we're flushing down the toilet in 2011 for Pierre and Linebrink), we improve our OBP and defense while adding a lefty bat and getting a legitimate lead-off hitter, and we get to screw the Cubs too. Great move.

 

I don't even know where to start with this one.

[chetkincaid]

How good is DeJesus defensively? Does he have a good arm?

 

Also, he doesn't steal bases. I don't know if I would replace Pierre with him. I guess you would play him in RF and make Quentin the full time DH.

[chetkincaid]

I don't even know where to start with this one.

 

Try starting with why on Earth we would want Fukindone...

[Balta1701]

How good is DeJesus defensively? Does he have a good arm?

 

Also, he doesn't steal bases. I don't know if I would replace Pierre with him. I guess you would play him in RF and make Quentin the full time DH.

Because we don't have enough DH's with batting averages around .200 and OPS's around .700?

 

The only year DeJesus played a lot of LF was 2009, although he's shown up there occasionally other years. He played very good defense there that year and fangraphs found him to have an above average arm. Over his career he's been well above average in LF and slightly below average in CF.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Try starting with why on Earth we would want Fukindone...

Because he's a left-handed, strong defensive RF who is currently hitting .281/.370/.449 which is much better than anyone on our team right now not named Konerko or Rios, and also because the Cubs will have to eat salary and move him for nothing, and furthermore it allows us to dump 2 bad contracts that extend beyond the year while improving the ballclub. Sounds like a great idea to me.

[LittleHurt05]

Because he's a left-handed, strong defensive RF who is currently hitting .281/.370/.449 which is much better than anyone on our team right now not named Konerko or Rios, and also because the Cubs will have to eat salary and move him for nothing, and furthermore it allows us to dump 2 bad contracts that extend beyond the year while improving the ballclub. Sounds like a great idea to me.

 

Instead of having 2 bad contracts (Pierre/Linebrink) at $10.5 million, you would rather have one awful contract at $13.5 million??? I'd rather save the money or take a chance on an extra OF at $3 million or so. Fukudome is extremely overpaid and is nothing more than an average player. You also called him a legitimate leadoff hitter. If that was the case, why have the Cubs only hit him leadoff 68 times in 2.5 seasons? This year in 19 games in that spot he has a .194/.298/.278 line.

[chetkincaid]

Because he's a left-handed, strong defensive RF who is currently hitting .281/.370/.449 which is much better than anyone on our team right now not named Konerko or Rios, and also because the Cubs will have to eat salary and move him for nothing, and furthermore it allows us to dump 2 bad contracts that extend beyond the year while improving the ballclub. Sounds like a great idea to me.

 

Yeah but hasn't he been on a slump lately - which is signs that his average will sink back down to around .258?

[Balta1701]

Yeah but hasn't he been on a slump lately - which is signs that his average will sink back down to around .258?

In June he's hitting .229 with a .556 OPS. He's only played 3 games in the last 7 days, because they're benching him for Colvin a lot right now. He's 3 for his last 18 with 1 walk in the last 2 weeks, only having played 7 games in that time.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

Instead of having 2 bad contracts (Pierre/Linebrink) at $10.5 million, you would rather have one awful contract at $13.5 million??? I'd rather save the money or take a chance on an extra OF at $3 million or so. Fukudome is extremely overpaid and is nothing more than an average player. You also called him a legitimate leadoff hitter. If that was the case, why have the Cubs only hit him leadoff 68 times in 2.5 seasons? This year in 19 games in that spot he has a .194/.298/.278 line.

 

No, see you've got it wrong.

 

Pierre and Linebrink are both worse because they're replaceable by minimum salary bench players and relievers. The amount they are paid above the minimum is frightening. Fukudome is grossly overpaid BUT he has a lot more ability than Juan Pierre ever has had or ever will have. Just the fact that he can play RF plus take a walk and hit for a little power puts him light years above Pierre who is just speed and range in the OF. And as for Linebrink - think about this: the Sox were afraid to give what probably would have amounted to another $1-$1.5M to DJ Carrasco who had been the best LR in baseball while he was here. Now Linebrink is making a combined $10.5M in 2010-11 to do a worse job than Carrasco could have done for what is basically chicken feed in terms of baseball salaries. How valuable is that? If Fukudome were a FA right now, and it was December, he wouldn't be looking at $26.5M over 2 years, but he'd probably could get $10M over two given his defense, left-handedness, and OBP-based offensive upside. Pierre and Linebrink each OTOH would be lucky to get $2M guaranteed a piece.

 

I have no idea why the Cubs have not him lead-off. I'm not Lou Pinella. However, his overall numbers are very good for a lead-off hitter. And career-wise, his OBP is good enough for a lead-off hitter.

 

Yeah but hasn't he been on a slump lately - which is signs that his average will sink back down to around .258?

 

His numbers are boosted by a great April and May and he's come down a lot since. He's also a career .270/.374/.422 hitter in the first half while just a career .246/.355/.381 hitter in the second. The thing is though, his career is only coming up on 2.5 seasons in the Major Leagues. However, just look at what he brings to the table in terms of baseball skills in comparison to Pierre. If nothing else, Fukudome's game should translate much better to the AL than Juan Pierre's ever will. Fukudome - worst case scenario here - is at least a better player here than Pierre. I think he may be a change of scenery guy also. Maybe playing for Ozzie will work as well for him as it did for Iguchi and Shingo, who both did some very good things in the short time they were here.

 

But anyway, the cost of this move would basically be swapping Pierre with Fukudome (big improvement all around) and swapping Linebrink with Hudson (another big improvement) for about an extra $1-2M or so maybe this year (haven't checked but it wouldn't be much) plus another $3M next year. I think that would be a fantastic move actually, because it would be safe move as far as Fukudome being a better American League bet than Pierre, and it would also offer us the biggest potential payoff. The upside for the Cubs would just be a decent SU man and a nice bench player, but for us it's a very good all-around starting OF. Yeah, if I can I make this move yesterday.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[chw42]

This is the second time I've had plantar fasciitis in my life, I got it from playing badminton everyday here in China.

 

It sucks, it's not as bad as a kidney stone or a pulled rib cage muscle, but ALMOST.

 

The thing is, you can't survive in everyday, commonplace life without putting some weight on your foot. Imagine an athlete and how much more pressure there is on the foot/feet. Mine is at the back (tissue/ligament at the bottom) of the left heel. The first time I hurt it, I think it was pretty mild, I went back to trying to play badminton and then I really tore through quite a bit of the ligament the second time.

 

You can take pain killers or have a cortisone injection, but it takes months to go away completely (the first time I did it hitting the 1B bag akwardly and also landing with all my weight at the heel instead of evenly balanced landing).

 

It's why I have a lot of sympathy for Quentin, the wrist and the foot can really affect you. You start overcompensating to relieve the pain and protect the injury and then you end up straining another part of your leg.

 

 

So I think selling low on CQ would be a huge mistake, just like buying high on Corey Hart.

 

I'm starting to think I have Plantar Fasciitis, my foot acts up all the time during basketball or any sport that involves agility.

[chw42]

IMO:

 

1. Trade Pierre + Linebrink + prospects for Fukudome. Pierre makes a prorated $3M this year + $5M next year, Linebrink makes a prorated $5M this year + $5.5M in 2011, and Fukudome makes a prorated $13M this year and $13.5M next year. The Cubs save a bit of money this year, they save $3M next year, and they'd get some prospects plus a spot for Colvin. For us, we get Fukudome at a very good contract value ($3M above what we're flushing down the toilet in 2011 for Pierre and Linebrink), we improve our OBP and defense while adding a lefty bat and getting a legitimate lead-off hitter, and we get to screw the Cubs too. Great move.

 

2. Trade prospects for Alex Gonzalez of Toronto. Alex is a natural SS but we could use him at 3B. He'll give us great defense where we need it without having to take on a lot of salary or surrender a ton of prospects, and along with Vizquel he should turn our backup SS/everyday 3B situation into a positive. Alex doesn't add much for OBP but he does have pop so that would make the 3B position be a bit more respectable offensively.

 

3. Deal prospects for Adam LaRoche. He was traded for pretty much nothing in the past, but he's a very underrated player who performs well in the second half, and in terms of prospects he should come cheap. IMO he could be just as good as Luke Scott in the second half, if not better, but for half the price or less. The DBacks should eat some salary.

 

4. Release Williams and call up Threets temporarily until Sale is ready. Call up Hudson to replace Linebrink in the bullpen. Make a decision between Jones and Viciedo as the RH pinch hitter. If it's Viciedo then we don't have a backup CF meaning Kotsay would have to play there if Rios gets the day off. So Ozzie wouldn't want to give Alex a bunch of days off, and when he did they'd have to be at home and not at, say, Comerica.

 

Lineup:

L Fukudome RF

R Gonzalez 3B

R Rios CF

R Konerko 1B

L LaRoche DH

R Quentin LF

L Pierzynski C

R Beckham 2B

R Ramirez SS

 

Bench:

Castro C

Vizquel 2B/SS/3B

Viciedo 1B/3B/DH/LF (try it out, why not?) - RH PH

Kotsay OF - LH PH

 

Pen:

Jenks CL

Putz SU

Thornton SU

Pena RSP

Threets/Sale LSP

Santos MR

Hudson LR

 

Much better team IMO, and we should be able to afford all these guys without draining the farm.

 

**Edited contract info

 

If the Cubs eat Fukudome's contract, I'd definitely take him on this team.

 

And absolutely no to Alex Gonzalez. This year's nothing but a fluke. He'd be just like everybody else on this team, bad at hitting and getting on base. The power you're seeing from him isn't going to last.

 

And I agree on your last two points.

 

[chetkincaid]

His numbers are boosted by a great April and May and he's come down a lot since. He's also a career .270/.374/.422 hitter in the first half while just a career .246/.355/.381 hitter in the second.

 

This is good??

 

The thing is though, his career is only coming up on 2.5 seasons in the Major Leagues. However, just look at what he brings to the table in terms of baseball skills in comparison to Pierre. If nothing else, Fukudome's game should translate much better to the AL than Juan Pierre's ever will. Fukudome - worst case scenario here - is at least a better player here than Pierre.

 

I don't know if I agree with this either. I don't think he'd be light years better than Pierre. I know Pierre has been bad, but he has actually started to show a little life. And I love that he's a base stealing threat (Fukodome isn't that much of one). Pierre gives provides distractions to opposing pitchers whenever he gets on base. Plus, Fukudome would probably go through a bad bad adjustment period moving form the NL to the AL. No thanks.

 

 

I think he may be a change of scenery guy also. Maybe playing for Ozzie will work as well for him as it did for Iguchi and Shingo, who both did some very good things in the short time they were here.

 

 

I thought he TURNED DOWN more money from the White Sox to play on the North Side when he was a free agent coming from Japan. Was this true?

 

 

 

[chw42]

This is good??

 

 

 

I don't know if I agree with this either. I don't think he'd be light years better than Pierre. I know Pierre has been bad, but he has actually started to show a little life. And I love that he's a base stealing threat (Fukodome isn't that much of one). Pierre gives provides distractions to opposing pitchers whenever he gets on base. Plus, Fukudome would probably go through a bad bad adjustment period moving form the NL to the AL. No thanks.

 

 

 

 

 

I thought he TURNED DOWN more money from the White Sox to play on the North Side when he was a free agent coming from Japan. Was this true?

 

To be fair, a .355/.381 slash is light years better than Pierre.

[LittleHurt05]

I have no idea why the Cubs have not him lead-off. I'm not Lou Pinella. However, his overall numbers are very good for a lead-off hitter. And career-wise, his OBP is good enough for a lead-off hitter.

 

But anyway, the cost of this move would basically be swapping Pierre with Fukudome (big improvement all around) and swapping Linebrink with Hudson (another big improvement) for about an extra $1-2M or so maybe this year (haven't checked but it wouldn't be much) plus another $3M next year. I think that would be a fantastic move actually, because it would be safe move as far as Fukudome being a better American League bet than Pierre, and it would also offer us the biggest potential payoff. The upside for the Cubs would just be a decent SU man and a nice bench player, but for us it's a very good all-around starting OF. Yeah, if I can I make this move yesterday.

 

He's also 22 for 39 career in SB attempts, 10 for 23 the last year and a half. There is way more to a leadoff hitter than OBP. He was supposed to be a middle of the order hitter, but his power didn't carry over from Japan. He's now an OK #2 hitter, but thats about it. I'd personally much rather hold on to Pierre, DFA Linebrink to make room for Hudson, and save the extra $3 million instead of going after Kosuke.

 

Plus, why would Cubs do this just to save that money? They already had Pierre once, hated him. They need to get rid of an old OF with the crowd they have out there, not swap one out for another. And Linebrink is not a decent SU man, he's bad, as you stated in your first paragraph.

[Kenny Hates Prospects]

If the Cubs eat Fukudome's contract, I'd definitely take him on this team.

 

And absolutely no to Alex Gonzalez. This year's nothing but a fluke. He'd be just like everybody else on this team, bad at hitting and getting on base. The power you're seeing from him isn't going to last.

 

And I agree on your last two points.

I agree 100% on Alex Gonzalez, which is why I'd like to have him. Everyone in baseball (at least I imagine) knows this is a one year thing, and that combined with his impending FA should make him cheap. MIF and good 3B are expensive, so with Alex Gonzalez we'd be paying for the always undervalued defensive aspect primarily. We'd pretty much get him to do for us what Uribe did for us in 2008 and what Uribe has done for the Giants since. I'd rather make a short-term move for a solid player without surrendering much than go after a top name, especially with Teahen's contract still on the books and Morel not too far away.

 

Edit: This move is nothing but insurance on Vizquel and protection from rookie Viciedo's defense. Anything we win this year will be won on pitching and defense, so Gonzalez helps there. The power (which has always been there although his surge isn't going to last) just helps make the 3B position a bit more respectable, that's all. We'd still be a below-average offensive club at 3B.

Edited June 22, 2010 by Kenny Hates Prospects

[chw42]

According to linear weights, a stolen base adds about .25 runs to your scoring probability, whereas a caught stealing costs you nearly .7 runs.

 

So in order to have positive run production in stolen bases, you MUST be at least a 75% SB guy.

 

Pierre's at 80% right now. And he's contributed around 1.5 runs with his stolen bases so far. Nothing drastic.

 

I think the thought of somebody who could steal at first is almost more valuable than the stolen bases themselves.

 

Rios, despite having 20 SB, has only contributed around .8 runs with his stolen bases.

 

 

Edited June 22, 2010 by chw42

[chw42]

I agree 100% on Alex Gonzalez, which is why I'd like to have him. Everyone in baseball (at least I imagine) knows this is a one year thing, and that combined with his impending FA should make him cheap. MIF and good 3B are expensive, so with Alex Gonzalez we'd be paying for the always undervalued defensive aspect primarily. We'd pretty much get him to do for us what Uribe did for us in 2008 and what Uribe has done for the Giants since. I'd rather make a short-term move for a solid player without surrendering much than go after a top name, especially with Teahen's contract still on the books and Morel not too far away.

 

Edit: This move is nothing but insurance on Vizquel and protection from rookie Viciedo's defense. Anything we win this year will be won on pitching and defense, so Gonzalez helps there. The power (which has always been there although his surge isn't going to last) just helps make the 3B position a bit more respectable, that's all. We'd still be a below-average offensive club at 3B.

 

But at this point, you'd be buying high on him, no matter what everybody really thinks of him. The home run numbers and the slugging% talk for themselves.